The Mourinho Thread

[mikeholiday 209]

Re-watching the game with calm nerves makes me more appreciative of the tactics. In a perfect world we want to be the champs and at the same time dominate the opponent with free flowing passes. But it all comes down to risk and reward. Chelsea went into the game with the objective of preventing Man U from getting the full 3 points, simple as that.

[Pacquiao 1,834]

Yeah on second thought agree that Hazard would be a regular during that era.

Agree with Iva over PF. Not sure about Azpi over Gallas, i think you can toss a coin for that.

I was thinking more of Lampard Makelele Essien as the CMs. Which i wouldnt touch TBH.

Agree to disagree about the CF. 2005 Drogba over Costa for me.

if your talking about the 2004/05 team Essien wasnt at the club that season, and Costa is comfortably better then Drogba in 2005

[DYC. 7,542]

I'm not the type to tell people how they should feel, but complaining all the time doesn't help. It will not make Mourinho change his style, neither will it make him go away. It only makes you miserable. I didn't see the game, but judging by the reaction, I can imagine the game in my head because it's classic Mourinho. Mou does not care about football, he cares about results. As long as he's the winner at the end, that's all that matters. So as long as he is in charge, you can expect more of the same.

Leading the league by 10 points + capturing the League Cup is not exactly torture, so try to find some 'solace' in that.

[mikeholiday 209]

if your talking about the 2004/05 team Essien wasnt at the club that season, and Costa is comfortably better then Drogba in 2005

Was thinking about 2005/2006 when i said 2005. comparing jose's second season vs his 'second' second season

[Blue Colored Sky 1,807]

And if you care only about pure entertainment. Just watch the highlights or goal compilations. Works both ways.

It's true but no one here is caring only about pure entertainment. There was no even one person suggesting such thing.

However a lot of people claim in a blatant way that they only care about result and being good Teletext team is the ultimate goal.

[Polo7 3,496]

Damn having a Mourinho thread and a Moaning thread is a terrible idea. I keep forgetting which one im in.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

Damn having a Mourinho thread and a Moaning thread is a terrible idea. I keep forgetting which one im in.

Actually you are in the real Moaning thread here.

[Blue Colored Sky 1,807]

And for Mourinho to say after the game he spent the entire week preparing to play this way and how happy he was the game panned out the way it did was depressing.

This is gold. And how every player was a monster even though they couldn't play 3 consecutive passes.

Speaking personally, I don't consider myself a super fan but and I do care about the football that's played. I have two issues however:

Although some will disagree, I am convinced that this squad is not good enough to win the league playing on the front foot. I've seen it happen time and time and time again that clubs arrive expecting a battering but become emboldened by the fact that our players keep passing to them. We survive this habit when our shape caters for it but we are horribly exposed when it does not. Our squad is better than it has been in the recent past but it is still not good enough.

I am seldom frustrated by how we play but I often am by how poorly we play. @Blue Coloured Sky won't have it, but the the only difference between our league performances at Man City this season and last, is that in 2013/14 we played well there, while this term we did not. The shape of the side was exactly the same. Atletico are much admired, including by me. They don't play front foot, they play what Jose is now calling strategically but with the difference that their passing is more sound than ours. This allows them to move forward with greater purpose and effect and also allows them time to recover their shape before possession is lost.

When Jose returned I felt we were 8 players short. We've made progress in that regard but there are still too many weak links. If we are still having to play like this three years from now, I will be as angry as some others are. For now however, I am calm and happy. Because we have Jose.

I won't agree with it. But I clearly understand what you mean. You're very consistent with your opinion.

Even Jose with the interview with Chelsea TV last season said that he thinks that every manager has the right ideas and good intentions however it's the execution which decides. If the execution is not possible then you have try something different however I am sure that execution is possible and repeating last game against City is possible.

But I leave it now, because we clearly represent different schools here.

Ultimately we want the same and that's relieving. I'd only want to point to the fact that the next season is the real first season of building. The 2 seasons now are quick fixing, very probably to even have an opportunity of building in that 3rd season and not to lose the job before that, which I imagine would happen if he wouldn't deliver.

However you always want to check the work in progress. And so far I don't see that many has changed. We're still thriving in retrieving to our box and wait for set piece or bit of magic from one player. We aren't showing a progress in pressing abilities either, which is fundamental. About youth you don't even want to say anything. And we still play the football that 99,9% of people identifies us from and so many of them hate us (and I hate this too, because how long can you play like an inferior team in submission way).

If I would want only and only quick trophies, make no mistake, I'd give Jose the time without even checking and worrying about this at all. However Jose has clear end result to achieve which is not just winning but playing dominant, with our youth players and having clear identity. And then you see the comment at the top of my post and you think "how this guy wants to play dominant and with youths when he says that he even prepared the team to play in exact unwatchable way and he's so happy about players who couldn't pass ?". That's simply big red alert for me going forward. You just hope that something is going to change big time in his mind not to always come back to this style, which is so natural for him.

I trust Jose to get the things right at the end and sort this something-which-you-can't-call-playing-football out however the signs so far are not positive for his long term project.

I only touch this thing because as I was saying many times previously the quick fixes he has implemented are good and it works but I hope he doesn't come back to this ever in a couple of years. I sincerely hope that he won't have to when he builds the platform but I'm not too sure that you can change 50 something years old, thriving in the underdog mentality for years.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

The supporters were fantastic yesterday at the Bridge. That was the best atmosphere of the season, every tackle and every block was cheered for, it inspired the players throughout.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

You mean the team that sat back the whole game figured out a little of what the other team was doing offensively?

Of course they did. The point is we play overly defensive, end of story. This "lack of form" isn't a true lack of form. It is a self inflicted one coming from passive and anxious play, that stems from the possibility of choking away the title. I can guarantee this "lack of form" will magically disappear as soon as we have the title locked up.

You can't sit here and in any way praise the defensive tactics as of recently. At the end of the day, there may be some ambiguity about the specifics of how we defended, in terms of funnelling or sending them to the wings, but we've been far too defensive lately, and it is making the team play worse, not better.

If we played our normal style, we'd be playing Barcelona right now, and we would have thumped this United side 4-2 or 5-2.

So you're saying that Jose said before the game: "Listen lads, you're all well paid professionals here and know a thing or two about tactics, I want you to get out there, sit back, figure out a way to stop their offensive system and key players and then do it!"

Let's be a tiny bit reasonable, shall we? Jose chose and worked on the tactics and should get the credit for them just like he gets all the stick when they don't work out.

And I'm not at all talking about our defensive approach at all nor am I defending our general approach to games. I'm talking about the tactics which very much were changed from "the usual tactics". I'm not even defending those tactics, I'm just saying that contrary to what you wrote, it was very clear that the tactics yesterday were very different than usual and adapted to united's play.

And I can and will praise tactics that managed to stop the system of the most in form team in the league. This is completely irrelevant of how attacking we were and what we looked to do with the ball. Regardless of how offensive you play, you still need to find the best way to defend again the opposition.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

So you're saying that Jose said before the game: "Listen lads, you're all well paid professionals here and know a thing or two about tactics, I want you to get out there, sit back, figure out a way to stop their offensive system and key players and then do it!"

Let's be a tiny bit reasonable, shall we? Jose chose and worked on the tactics and should get the credit for them just like he gets all the stick when they don't work out.

And I'm not at all talking about our defensive approach at all nor am I defending our general approach to games. I'm talking about the tactics which very much were changed from "the usual tactics". I'm not even defending those tactics, I'm just saying that contrary to what you wrote, it was very clear that the tactics yesterday were very different than usual and adapted to united's play.

And I can and will praise tactics that managed to stop the system of the most in form team in the league. This is completely irrelevant of how attacking we were and what we looked to do with the ball. Regardless of how offensive you play, you still need to find the best way to defend again the opposition.

Brendan Rodgers in disguise that one.

[Stats 7,230]

Great result and that and we done a good job in containg their attacking threats however I do understand why even post-match why people would be frustrated. We got the win but when you consider United had their 2 best holding mids out in Carrick and Blind and arguably all three first choice CB out in Rojo, Jones and Evans I reckon if we attacked them we could have taken them to the cleaners even with Drogba up front. We had enough attacking flair to hurt them. I am happy we got the win because if it ended a draw I would be really angry about how we did not attack them.

I am not complaining like others simply because we on but everyone has a right to an opinion. I think we could have beaten United either way, playing the football we did yesterday or if we actually went out with an attcking approach.

I would love us to go and attack Arsenal and show them who the title pretenders and contenders are. We will see.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

After seeing our performances in the first half of the season, I don't get how people are questioning whether jose can play attacking football. Everybody wants to see his team play a great attacking football but nobody wants to loose important games too.

I read on the DM JT saying after the game that we haven't been in our best form since January. What does that tell you? Jose and everybody else at the club knows we're not playing great recently. But should we let that cost us the title? WTF guys?

People keep forgetting Mourinho can easily play attacking football as we did in the beginning of the season. The players have lost form, fabregas not as good in passing, costa injured or suspended, Oscar forgetting how to tackle, even Matic makes a lot of poor passes nowadays so Mourinho is using tactics that work no matter the type of players or the form of players. And it's working, 30/39points is a fantastic return in the 2nd half of the season where players haven't been playing well.

[Polo7 3,496]

Great result and that and we done a good job in containg their attacking threats however I do understand why even post-match why people would be frustrated. We got the win but when you consider United had their 2 best holding mids out in Carrick and Blind and arguably all three first choice CB out in Rojo, Jones and Evans I reckon if we attacked them we could have taken them to the cleaners even with Drogba up front. We had enough attacking flair to hurt them. I am happy we got the win because if it ended a draw I would be really angry about how we did not attack them.

I am not complaining like others simply because we on but everyone has a right to an opinion. I think we could have beaten United either way, playing the football we did yesterday or if we actually went out with an attcking approach.

I would love us to go and attack Arsenal and show them who the title pretenders and contenders are. We will see.

Being so close to the trophy, is there any need to try and play attacking football then get caught on the counter attack and lose?

[Barbara 15,149]

That is good, and true, but some of us care about building a base, and general style of play which can eventually transform and build onto dominance.

Playing like this, will never prepare us for greater things, and push us to build on anything against far better teams than current Manchester United. I for one, want us to become a team in the same realm as Real, Bayern and Barca, where no matter where they go, they play their game. All those teams tweak things going to opposition home grounds at times, and at times playing slightly more defensively, etc, but not to the extent where they give up their identity.

We have all the tools and pieces to do that in the EPL. I never said that is something we should do in the Champions League yet, against Real, Bayern or Barca, but we should still have been able to do it against a team like PSG.

We had that going for us from 2005-2009ish. We went anywhere and played our game. At times, eased back, at times we pressed hard. Not close to the case now, yet you could argue our team is further in front in terms of balance and the gap between our opposition.

Please, at least try to see a few inches ahead of your nose (common expression in Portuguese, I don't mean to be offensive, just for you to try to see the bigger picture instead of the tiny pixels right in front of your eyes)

"but some of us care about building a base, and general style of play which can eventually transform and build onto dominance.

what do you think we're doing here? With the players we have, it's easy to play attacking football. Our both pivot players are very good on the ball, one of them has one of the best visions in the sport. They combine with Hazard, the third or so best player in the world and second in terms of raw talent and dribbling. Willian and Oscar when playing around those players and with more of a free reign showed that they can shine some too. We have one of the best attacking FB in the world - who I fully expect to see next season displacing Azpili (of course Mourinho won't drop Iva). We have some very prolific strikers and you know how I'm so sure about it? Because I saw this bunch of players working some magic for four months in a row.

You know what we didn't have yet? Nerves of steel, winning against adversity, scrapping results. How do I know that? Looking back to last season when our very limited squad (technically) could have won simply because of the geniality of our manager. But we came short because our players - most of them - weren't winners yet, didn't know how to deal with small teams challenging them to score against their parked buses. What we're forging in those players now is much more important, long term, base-forming and a step to dominance than simply playing attacking football. And you know why? Because we already showed we know how to play attacking football for four months. Why did we stop? For a series of reasons my fingers already know how to type without any command from my brain: players got injured, dropped form, got tired. As a team we lost intensity and guess what? For a team as new as we are this season (the key players only arrived this season) it wasn't unexpected at all they'd lose intensity and wouldn't be able to go through their first season playing together full throttle.

Playing like this, will never prepare us for greater things, and push us to build on anything against far better teams than current Manchester United. I for one, want us to become a team in the same realm as Real, Bayern and Barca, where no matter where they go, they play their game. All those teams tweak things going to opposition home grounds at times, and at times playing slightly more defensively, etc, but not to the extent where they give up their identity.

and do you think those teams built their identity from night to day, like you want us to do? It was years working in the same philosophy - regardless of the manager - years getting the right players to fit exactly their style and the right moment when most of those players peaked. Go do some research about Bayern and find out their onwer interviews saying it took them around a decade to come up with the team after they decided to go to Barcelona and study how they built their identity. United had the same manger for nearly 3 decades. Those things don't come overnight as you are demanding them to happen. We don't have the identity yet, we're building it. For it to happen, said identity needs to be drilled over and over again throughout a few seasons, the right players have to come in, most of said players have to reach their peak, the team must evolve in all areas - not only knowing how to attack and one of those areas is mentally - which was our big downfall last season. That's what they're learning now. We aren't simply grinding results, we're grinding character and winner mentality in those players.

Hazard is evolving in a beautiful way and while I see some buffoons saying imagine what he would do in an 'attacking team' I prefer to see that he's adding so many more things to his already obvious and incomparable talent. Cristiano isn't anywhere as talented as Messi, actually in terms of raw talent I think Eden is also ahead of him. But I read yesterday the guy has scored 50+ goals in ALL his seasons at RM. He works hard, he learned a lot of things to compensate his inferior talent. Eden is learning a lot of things maybe he wouldn't learn sitting in a team like Barcelona. That makes him a more complete player and those things won't make him unlearn how to dribble, how to play his football. He's paying a price right now, and isn't as free as he probably wanted to play, but he'll end up a more complete, a better player with nerves of steel. Everybody - especially the Belgians - can say this kind of mentality wasn't natural for his personality. It's a tough way the kid is taking and it just makes me prouder of him. I have maybe doubts in those two years if he had it in him to change a little bit his laid off personality and develop this killing instinct - not exactly to score or assist - but to step up and decide matches and influence matches anyway he can and make the team win. That's priceless in a young talent development imo. So I think unlike some geniuses here, he may feel actually very blessed and lucky to be playing in a place with a manager that are taking him from his comfort zone and helping him to maximize his talent. Nothing can contain his talent, his dribbling, his quality, not even the so-horrible-defensive--coward style you and others here believe we play.

Why should we jeopardize winning talents to build the identity? Football players are mostly motivated by titles. Mourinho is experienced and incredibly smart. He knows for the identity to be fully developed it has to be built with titles too. If he gave up on titles and went on just thinking about the identity the owner asked him to create, he'd have a difficult time motivating players because beautiful football without titles put a damper into any developing identity... Winning is as important as drilling the identity. If you stop doing one or the other, you could end up never reaching your goal. Those players in their vast majority are people who haven't studied to become professional players, such as people do for most careers in the world. They don't have career coaches, psychologists working on a personal level with them. They have managers that more often than not, don't stay around long enough, they have the club staff, not their own. Their university is the club they play, and for them to learn things, to evolve beyond their talent, for them to reach new heights, it has to come with titles otherwise they'll feel compelled to go somewhere else where they can win things. this is sports, not academic careers.

When we're ready, when all those factors I mentioned and a few more (chemistry, time, the remaining players, the more adequate bench, the talents we're nurturing in the academy under Mourinho's tutoring), we won't be giving up the identity every now and then, but said identity has to be fully developed and implemented for it to happen.

We had that going for us from 2005-2009ish. We went anywhere and played our game. At times, eased back, at times we pressed hard. Not close to the case now, yet you could argue our team is further in front in terms of balance and the gap between our opposition.

a couple of people already addressed this part of your post - which I disagree even further than the above parts I answered to, but this post is already big as it is, maybe in another occasions we could have a deeper talk about the myths, the truths and the lies about the first years under Roman (especially during and post Mourinho). It's more of the same case of turning a person into a saint just because they died. It seems natural to human race to overlook major flaws after something/someone dies. I'm sure psychology has a name for it and there must be numerous studies supporting it.

[didierforever 7,349]

The supporters were fantastic yesterday at the Bridge. That was the best atmosphere of the season, every tackle and every block was cheered for, it inspired the players throughout.

yup. the crowd was really up for it. makes me feel good that the people moaning on here are a very very small minority (even if they do go to the bridge). the fans who do go to the bridge, go off their own accord. the club or roman or jose dont hold a gun on their heads and force them to support the club. right now, the club has some objectives. the first objective is to win the league. end of. how it is achieved is not the important thing right now. its only about getting the PL done and dusted. get the monkey off jose's back, the team's back and give them the confidence that they can win the league.

from there, we start building towards style and flair of our early season football. start integrating youth and do what is necessary to acheive the maximum success.

right now, its all about the results. last night we got the result and gave a very very good performance. we did what we had wanted to do. and without a shred of doubt, roman, the boss, and the fans all were pleased. if there are a couple of people who cant be happy or act unhappy just to get some kind of idiotic attention, good for them. let them soak in their own misery. who the hell cares.

WE ARE 10 POINTS AHEAD OF ARSENAL. TOP OF THE TABLE SINCE DAY 1. AND ON THE WAY TO THE 5TH LEAGUE TITLE. COME ON CHELSEA.!!!

[Stats 7,230]

Being so close to the trophy, is there any need to try and play attacking football then get caught on the counter attack and lose?

Being at home and being the better team, is there any reason why we could not of attack them? Yes, I understand that the plan worked but we are the better team. We are top for a reason and their injuries were more than ours. There is no reason to suggest we could not have played an attacking game.

As I said, I am not disputing Mourinho's tactics as we won but I don't think people have a right to have a go at people who were frustrated after the match with our tactics. Because really and truly I reckon we could have hurt them if we showed them more of an attacking impetus. Especially when you see rookies in their team like Mcnair.

[didierforever 7,349]

Being at home and being the better team, is there any reason why we could not of attack them? Yes, I understand that the plan worked but we are the better team. We are top for a reason and their injuries were more than ours. There is no reason to suggest we could not have played an attacking game.

As I said, I am not disputing Mourinho's tactics as we won but I don't think people have a right to have a go at people who were frustrated after the match with our tactics. Because really and truly I reckon we could have hurt them if we showed them more of an attacking impetus. Especially when you see rookies in their team like Mcnair.

we could if we wanted to. people forget the pool match last season where we would probably have lined up for a similar way but since they got an early goal, we ripped them open for the rest of the half before shutting out the match in the second.

yesterday, we did not need the win, united did. a draw would have suited us as good. then why the risk. why should we be doing anything that makes us circumspect at this juncture in the season. just not worth it. we had a gameplan, and it worked like a charm.

[Special Juan 28,868]

It's not the winning that counts it's the moaning that matters.

:blue scalf:

New slogan for this thread.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Please, at least try to see a few inches ahead of your nose (common expression in Portuguese, I don't mean to be offensive, just for you to try to see the bigger picture instead of the tiny pixels right in front of your eyes)

what do you think we're doing here? With the players we have, it's easy to play attacking football. Our both pivot players are very good on the ball, one of them has one of the best visions in the sport. They combine with Hazard, the third or so best player in the world and second in terms of raw talent and dribbling. Willian and Oscar when playing around those players and with more of a free reign showed that they can shine some too. We have one of the best attacking FB in the world - who I fully expect to see next season displacing Azpili (of course Mourinho won't drop Iva). We have some very prolific strikers and you know how I'm so sure about it? Because I saw this bunch of players working some magic for four months in a row.

You know what we didn't have yet? Nerves of steel, winning against adversity, scrapping results. How do I know that? Looking back to last season when our very limited squad (technically) could have won simply because of the geniality of our manager. But we came short because our players - most of them - weren't winners yet, didn't know how to deal with small teams challenging them to score against their parked buses. What we're forging in those players now is much more important, long term, base-forming and a step to dominance than simply playing attacking football. And you know why? Because we already showed we know how to play attacking football for four months. Why did we stop? For a series of reasons my fingers already know how to type without any command from my brain: players got injured, dropped form, got tired. As a team we lost intensity and guess what? For a team as new as we are this season (the key players only arrived this season) it wasn't unexpected at all they'd lose intensity and wouldn't be able to go through their first season playing together full throttle.

and do you think those teams built their identity from night to day, like you want us to do? It was years working in the same philosophy - regardless of the manager - years getting the right players to fit exactly their style and the right moment when most of those players peaked. Go do some research about Bayern and find out their onwer interviews saying it took them around a decade to come up with the team after they decided to go to Barcelona and study how they built their identity. United had the same manger for nearly 3 decades. Those things don't come overnight as you are demanding them to happen. We don't have the identity yet, we're building it. For it to happen, said identity needs to be drilled over and over again throughout a few seasons, the right players have to come in, most of said players have to reach their peak, the team must evolve in all areas - not only knowing how to attack and one of those areas is mentally - which was our big downfall last season. That's what they're learning now. We aren't simply grinding results, we're grinding character and winner mentality in those players.

Hazard is evolving in a beautiful way and while I see some buffoons saying imagine what he would do in an 'attacking team' I prefer to see that he's adding so many more things to his already obvious and incomparable talent. Cristiano isn't anywhere as talented as Messi, actually in terms of raw talent I think Eden is also ahead of him. But I read yesterday the guy has scored 50+ goals in ALL his seasons at RM. He works hard, he learned a lot of things to compensate his inferior talent. Eden is learning a lot of things maybe he wouldn't learn sitting in a team like Barcelona. That makes him a more complete player and those things won't make him unlearn how to dribble, how to play his football. He's paying a price right now, and isn't as free as he probably wanted to play, but he'll end up a more complete, a better player with nerves of steel. Everybody - especially the Belgians - can say this kind of mentality wasn't natural for his personality. It's a tough way the kid is taking and it just makes me prouder of him. I have maybe doubts in those two years if he had it in him to change a little bit his laid off personality and develop this killing instinct - not exactly to score or assist - but to step up and decide matches and influence matches anyway he can and make the team win. That's priceless in a young talent development imo. So I think unlike some geniuses here, he may feel actually very blessed and lucky to be playing in a place with a manager that are taking him from his comfort zone and helping him to maximize his talent. Nothing can contain his talent, his dribbling, his quality, not even the so-horrible-defensive--coward style you and others here believe we play.

Why should we jeopardize winning talents to build the identity? Football players are mostly motivated by titles. Mourinho is experienced and incredibly smart. He knows for the identity to be fully developed it has to be built with titles too. If he gave up on titles and went on just thinking about the identity the owner asked him to create, he'd have a difficult time motivating players because beautiful football without titles put a damper into any developing identity... Winning is as important as drilling the identity. If you stop doing one or the other, you could end up never reaching your goal. Those players in their vast majority are people who haven't studied to become professional players, such as people do for most careers in the world. They don't have career coaches, psychologists working on a personal level with them. They have managers that more often than not, don't stay around long enough, they have the club staff, not their own. Their university is the club they play, and for them to learn things, to evolve beyond their talent, for them to reach new heights, it has to come with titles otherwise they'll feel compelled to go somewhere else where they can win things. this is sports, not academic careers.

When we're ready, when all those factors I mentioned and a few more (chemistry, time, the remaining players, the more adequate bench, the talents we're nurturing in the academy under Mourinho's tutoring), we won't be giving up the identity every now and then, but said identity has to be fully developed and implemented for it to happen.

a couple of people already addressed this part of your post - which I disagree even further than the above parts I answered to, but this post is already big as it is, maybe in another occasions we could have a deeper talk about the myths, the truths and the lies about the first years under Roman (especially during and post Mourinho). It's more of the same case of turning a person into a saint just because they died. It seems natural to human race to overlook major flaws after something/someone dies. I'm sure psychology has a name for it and there must be numerous studies supporting it.

brilliant.