The Tuchel Thread

[ZAPHOD2319 4,819]

 

[Superblue 6,372]

 

[Clockwork 1,794]

Being 20 points out of first place is not good enough, next season will tell us a lot about him.

[Strike 7,494]

8 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

 

Well deserved. He's the glue holding the club together in the last two months

[Clockwork 1,794]

You guys have a way of going overboard of worshiping managers, i am lukewarm on Tuchel. I think he is solid enough to get us top 4, but I have not seen anything to suggest he can get us to compete against City and Pool in the league. 
 

[Superblue 6,372]

20 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

You guys have a way of going overboard of worshiping managers, i am lukewarm on Tuchel. I think he is solid enough to get us top 4, but I have not seen anything to suggest he can get us to compete against City and Pool in the league. 
 

I think there are huge positives to take from Tuchel.

The biggest one being that for the past 18 months under him we've competed against the very best sides and often been at the very least their equal and at times superior. He hasn't lost in 5 games under Klopp's Liverpool (penalties notwithstanding), he's beaten Pep's City 3 times, Conte's Spurs 3 times, Simeone's Atletico twice, Real Madrid twice. From a competitive perspective we're back at that level consistently and he has to take a lot of the credit for that because the majority of these players under Sarri and Lampard before him struggled against the very best teams.

There has been progress this season in the league. Obviously not enough to compete currently with Liverpool and City but we should finish 3rd and realistically our league season has completely petered out because we've been relatively safe in that spot for months. Consistency is something that needs to improve in our league form to challenge for the title. I saw a stat the other day too that we're in the top 3 teams in the league for most points lost from a leading position with 20 which is far too much for a team in 3rd. Rightly or wrongly, it also isn't coincidental that the two poor runs in the league we've had this year came over Xmas when we were ravaged with injuries and covid, and recently with the sanctions and dark cloud hanging over the club's head.

It is also easy to forget the time Pep and Klopp have had at their clubs. Pep's City when he inherited them were already strong and it was a struggle him getting them in the top 4 the first season. He spent £400m in the first two summers in the club to reshape them. Klopp took a couple of years to get Liverpool in the top 4 and I'm pretty sure they also lost 3 cup finals before winning one. The process can take time.

I believe with the right backing and recruitment, Tuchel is at a level as a coach where over the next couple of seasons he can get us closer to the top 2 whilst also keeping us competitive and in the hunt for cups. 

I don't foresee a situation where the new ownership coming in will be as trigger happy as Roman. I think they'll be realistic in where we're currently at in comparison to Liverpool and City and we may be a couple of years and a couple of good transfer windows away from sustaining a title challenge. But with this in mind, and perhaps a more patient and settled approach in the manager/coaching department, I think Tuchel is probably the best manager throughout Roman's era at the club to be trusted with a longer term, patient approach. For me, at present, there's no other manager around that I'd be happy replacing him with.

[Clockwork 1,794]

54 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I think there are huge positives to take from Tuchel.

The biggest one being that for the past 18 months under him we've competed against the very best sides and often been at the very least their equal and at times superior. He hasn't lost in 5 games under Klopp's Liverpool (penalties notwithstanding), he's beaten Pep's City 3 times, Conte's Spurs 3 times, Simeone's Atletico twice, Real Madrid twice. From a competitive perspective we're back at that level consistently and he has to take a lot of the credit for that because the majority of these players under Sarri and Lampard before him struggled against the very best teams.

There has been progress this season in the league. Obviously not enough to compete currently with Liverpool and City but we should finish 3rd and realistically our league season has completely petered out because we've been relatively safe in that spot for months. Consistency is something that needs to improve in our league form to challenge for the title. I saw a stat the other day too that we're in the top 3 teams in the league for most points lost from a leading position with 20 which is far too much for a team in 3rd. Rightly or wrongly, it also isn't coincidental that the two poor runs in the league we've had this year came over Xmas when we were ravaged with injuries and covid, and recently with the sanctions and dark cloud hanging over the club's head.

It is also easy to forget the time Pep and Klopp have had at their clubs. Pep's City when he inherited them were already strong and it was a struggle him getting them in the top 4 the first season. He spent £400m in the first two summers in the club to reshape them. Klopp took a couple of years to get Liverpool in the top 4 and I'm pretty sure they also lost 3 cup finals before winning one. The process can take time.

I believe with the right backing and recruitment, Tuchel is at a level as a coach where over the next couple of seasons he can get us closer to the top 2 whilst also keeping us competitive and in the hunt for cups. 

I don't foresee a situation where the new ownership coming in will be as trigger happy as Roman. I think they'll be realistic in where we're currently at in comparison to Liverpool and City and we may be a couple of years and a couple of good transfer windows away from sustaining a title challenge. But with this in mind, and perhaps a more patient and settled approach in the manager/coaching department, I think Tuchel is probably the best manager throughout Roman's era at the club to be trusted with a longer term, patient approach. For me, at present, there's no other manager around that I'd be happy replacing him with.

No doubt Tuchel had some solid results against those teams, but H2H only prove unique advantages. Over 38 games we see the team quality as a whole. 
 

Pep and Klopp showed improvement every year, with Tuchel it is the opposite We were better in his first couple of months than we are now.

I don’t see Tuchel in the same realm as Pep and Klopp, I see those guys as visionary and club builders. Tuchel is more like Carlo, game day manager driven and focused. 

[Superblue 6,372]

5 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

No doubt Tuchel had some solid results against those teams, but H2H only prove unique advantages. Over 38 games we see the team quality as a whole. 

Pep and Klopp showed improvement every year, with Tuchel it is the opposite We were better in his first couple of months than we are now.

I don’t see Tuchel in the same realm as Pep and Klopp, I see those guys as visionary and club builders. Tuchel is more like Carlo, game day manager driven and focused. 

As I said though look at some of the situations the club has had to experience in the second half of this season. There's absolutely no doubt that the club has to become more consistent, and with City and Liverpool showing no signs of slowing down at present, you can't afford many slip ups to keep pace with them. But this didn't happen over night for either of them too. They've had the time and resources to build at their clubs. 

As a club we weren't title challenging before Tuchel, and with the greatest respect to Lampard, we had absolutely no direction. Despite all the drama in recent months around the club he has been a constant settling presence. 

Can Tuchel replicate Klopp and Pep? I don't know. So far I'd say he's made enough improvement in 18 months to suggest he's worth holding on to and finding out with over the next couple of seasons. Klopp took a lot of time to get things right at Liverpool and Pep took a lot of money. Neither had immediate success with squads they inherited, like Tuchel has had. If he's given a longer term project to build the club/squad in his image who's to say he can't make it a big success?

[Tomo 21,751]

5 hours ago, Clockwork said:

No doubt Tuchel had some solid results against those teams, but H2H only prove unique advantages. Over 38 games we see the team quality as a whole. 
 

Pep and Klopp showed improvement every year, with Tuchel it is the opposite We were better in his first couple of months than we are now.

I don’t see Tuchel in the same realm as Pep and Klopp, I see those guys as visionary and club builders. Tuchel is more like Carlo, game day manager driven and focused. 

It's not as linear as that. Klopp took two and a half years (and the best GK, CB and CDM in the world) to break away from the level we're currently at.

[Mário César 1,282]

Tuchel deserves one more season (at least).

Let's see what will happen next year and after that we can make a better avaliation of him 

[Clockwork 1,794]

5 hours ago, Tomo said:

It's not as linear as that. Klopp took two and a half years (and the best GK, CB and CDM in the world) to break away from the level we're currently at.

The team Tuchel inherited is much more talented and pricy.

Am I advocating to sack Tuchel? No, I just think I have my doubts if Tuchel can take us to City and Pool level. 
 

Klopp built Dortmund and had a track record of building team, Tuchel doesn’t have that. 
 

 

[Clockwork 1,794]

Tuchel quotes regarding Kante sound like a huge excuse. No we are not where we are because Kante has not been fully healthy, 

[Blue Armour 4,448]

11 hours ago, Clockwork said:

 

Pep and Klopp showed improvement every year, with Tuchel it is the opposite We were better in his first couple of months than we are now.

 

Tuchel has completed just 1.5 years at the club.

How is that a realistic sample space for what you're claiming?

Also, it quite literally has been an improvement. From 4th to 3rd. So its the opposite of what you said.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Blue Armour

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

On 17/05/2022 at 05:56, Strike said:

Well deserved. He's the glue holding the club together in the last two months

Precisely.

Plus, not to mention the fact he has had to suffer all the Russian/Ukraine questions over the months because of Roman-Putin links, all the ownership questions and a on a personal level a separation from his wife too. Its been a tough few months.

Anyone questioning if he is the right man to lead this club next season and beyond, or anyone who has any doubts should be giving themselves a reality check.

The one thing that will be an absolute necessity after this takeover goes through, is that we keep the guy who has played a huge huge huge part in the last year and a half here. It is clear we need reinforcing in key areas. The manager seat isn’t one. Better finishing and we would of had much more points. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by OneMoSalah

[Strike 7,494]

14 hours ago, Clockwork said:

No doubt Tuchel had some solid results against those teams, but H2H only prove unique advantages. Over 38 games we see the team quality as a whole. 
 

Pep and Klopp showed improvement every year, with Tuchel it is the opposite We were better in his first couple of months than we are now.

I don’t see Tuchel in the same realm as Pep and Klopp, I see those guys as visionary and club builders. Tuchel is more like Carlo, game day manager driven and focused. 

Pep investment first two years - Gundogan, Sane, Stones, Zinchenko, Jesus, Bravo, Nolito, B Silva, Ederson, Walker, Danilo, Mendy, Laporte.

Klopp investment first two years - Wijnaldum, Mane, Matip, Karius, Salah, Robertson, Chamberlain, VVD (in Jan)

Tuchel - Lukaku...

[Superblue 6,372]

4 hours ago, Strike said:

Pep investment first two years - Gundogan, Sane, Stones, Zinchenko, Jesus, Bravo, Nolito, B Silva, Ederson, Walker, Danilo, Mendy, Laporte.

Klopp investment first two years - Wijnaldum, Mane, Matip, Karius, Salah, Robertson, Chamberlain, VVD (in Jan)

Tuchel - Lukaku...

Huge turnover of players for both managers. To give it further context, we have a lot of players still at the club in some capacity who were here under Conte, and most were at least here under Sarri. 3 or 4 managers have come and gone and that's a big reason why some players get a fresh start, new lease of life, for the short term but ultimately for the long term they're simply not good enough.

Our recruitment has never been the strongest and it's rarely followed a pattern with regards to the type of players we're bringing in for a particular style. We'll regularly go for the player that's 'flavour of the month' without a real plan for how that player might fit in and it's the main reason why we're left with a talented but imbalanced squad. You can argue Klopp and Liverpool were behind the curve and needed more rebuilding, although he was afforded a lot more time before Liverpool actually started mounting challenges.

But Pep had a talented squad at City. They'd won the league just 12 months prior to him coming on board, and it's easy to forget that first season was a real adjustment period for him. They were miles off the pace we set. Tuchel coming in and getting an immediate response was very impressive.

The issue Tuchel has faced like so many before him is the Chelsea job is so short term. If he knew he would have been afforded the time to build something here, would he have sanctioned the Lukaku deal? Would he be prepared to evolve and completely rip up the back 3 which gave that initial success for a more longer term change that if results don't go well he'll likely not be here to see through. The pressures here are completely different to what Klopp and Pep experience at City and Liverpool. Klopp wouldn't have had that time he enjoyed at Liverpool to get things right.

The key here is from what reports suggest, the new ownership is very high on Tuchel and although we won't know until they're in the door, I think they'll show more patience to a project. The American owners are generally much more patient in their approach. Tuchel should be given not just the resources but the time to get things right and build something here now which wouldn't have been possible under Roman. We don't have hindsight and will have to maybe look back in 18 - 24 months time to see how we've progressed but I am quietly confident that we've got the right man at the helm to start this rebuilding process.

[Clockwork 1,794]

7 hours ago, Strike said:

Pep investment first two years - Gundogan, Sane, Stones, Zinchenko, Jesus, Bravo, Nolito, B Silva, Ederson, Walker, Danilo, Mendy, Laporte.

Klopp investment first two years - Wijnaldum, Mane, Matip, Karius, Salah, Robertson, Chamberlain, VVD (in Jan)

Tuchel - Lukaku...

We brought Havertz, Werner, Ziyech, Chilly. Six months before he took over.

[Superblue 6,372]

42 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

We brought Havertz, Werner, Ziyech, Chilly. Six months before he took over.

The point is though he hasn't bought those players. 

They might have freshened up the squad but they're players that the board and/or Lampard have chosen.

Those players Pep and Klopp have bought in within the first 2 years of their reigns are their own players that they've hand picked to help build the squad they want. It's completely different.

[Clockwork 1,794]

32 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

The point is though he hasn't bought those players. 

They might have freshened up the squad but they're players that the board and/or Lampard have chosen.

Those players Pep and Klopp have bought in within the first 2 years of their reigns are their own players that they've hand picked to help build the squad they want. It's completely different.

Tuchel doesn’t have a successful track record of signing players. With Lukaku 0/1 at Chelsea. 

Anyway he is going to get opportunity to make big changes to the squad, players contracts are running out and some players are just not playing at Chelsea quality.

if Alonso and Azpi are here next season playing a lot of football that is on Tuchel, because they should be out of the door if he can’t convince the club that is his fault.

I don’t even know what Tuchel type of players are, outside of CBs he is not getting the best out of anyone at Chelsea.

[Superblue 6,372]

1 hour ago, Clockwork said:

Tuchel doesn’t have a successful track record of signing players. With Lukaku 0/1 at Chelsea. 

Anyway he is going to get opportunity to make big changes to the squad, players contracts are running out and some players are just not playing at Chelsea quality.

if Alonso and Azpi are here next season playing a lot of football that is on Tuchel, because they should be out of the door if he can’t convince the club that is his fault.

I don’t even know what Tuchel type of players are, outside of CBs he is not getting the best out of anyone at Chelsea.

I don't know if we'll ever know the full story regarding Lukaku, maybe when parties are no longer at the club but I'm reluctant to put more than partial blame on Tuchel for that move because I think there were people within the boardroom or scouting department who wanted him more.

PSG similarly, I've no idea the level of influence he had on transfers but I'm pretty sure Leonardo has a greater influence.

Dortmund I agree was hit and miss, but I believe he did oversee them buy Dembele and Isak for reasonable fees which would suggest that he does have an eye for younger talent and to be honest that is rather the route I would see us go down in the future as opposed to buying the ready made product for huge money because we inevitably seem to get that always wrong.