The Tuchel Thread

[NikkiCFC 7,588]

5 hours ago, Strike said:

There is a big difference. We are looking to bridge that gap to the top 2. We wont get there overnight.

 

3 hours ago, Jase said:

Why do people think that? Even if we don't win the title this season, it's still important to show progression, to build the foundation for winning the title in the future. You don't just suddenly bridge that 20 or 30-point gap to City in one season and win the league. Nikki pointed out the points total from 2014/15 to 2017/18 but also ignored the context. The meltdown in 2015/16 was an inexplainable anomaly but we were able to win the title again in 2016/17 because we had been champions in 2014/15 with the same group of players. The recipe for success was still there. But since then, the landscape has changed. Yes, you could point to City suddenly overturning the gap in 2017/18 after finishing far behind in 2016/17 but Guardiola and even Klopp have come in and really raised the bar. They have produced crazy consistency over the last 4 seasons or so, consistently gaining more than 90 points etc with win after win after win, season in season out. That's something that not even our best team in the past or Wenger's Arsenal or Fergie's United managed to do. Apart from the one successful title defence, it's always been a boom or bust with us when it comes to the league. Since 2005/06, whenever we have won the league, we have always followed it up with a bad season. That is why unless we build towards having consistency in our results and performances like Liverpool and especially City, we aren't gonna able to catch them over 38 games. Relying on others to have a meltdown for us to have success is not sustainable. 

Once you realize you are not in title race you may lose motivation and lose many more points you normally would not. So possibly it wont show the real gap.

Also 10 points difference can easily be 4 smallest possible details like goal in extra time or something...

We always expected City to finish over 90 points but the table gap only exist because we lost so many points against low level teams we should not even if lets say we are 3rd team in quality in the league. City have nothing to do with that. 

Lampard was 12 points behind City when he left, TT finished 19 behind so gap for him was 7. Now 8. No improvement.

Since Conte is Spurs manager he lost less points than Liverpool so there is no gap he need to close on them?

Lille finish over PSG last season, now 18 points behind. Things like this happen all the time.

 

[Jase 43,479]

19 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Once you realize you are not in title race you may lose motivation and lose many more points you normally would not. So possibly it wont show the real gap.

Isn't this down to the manager to make sure the team build consistency, to instill a winning mentality and not just win when they want to? As I said earlier, we aren't going to catch City or Liverpool if we don't build any sort of consistency over the course of the season. On top of that, this group has not won the Premier League title before, apart from Azpi and Alonso. So, they can't just turn it on whenever they want to and think they can just walk over anyone. If we want to be best, we should aspire to keep winning games regardless whether we can win the big prize at the end of it. That's what the top teams do. 

22 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

We always expected City to finish over 90 points but the table gap only exist because we lost so many points against low level teams we should not even if lets say we are 3rd team in quality in the league. City have nothing to do with that. 

Lampard was 12 points behind City when he left, TT finished 19 behind so gap for him was 7. Now 8. No improvement.

Since Conte is Spurs manager he lost less points than Liverpool so there is no gap he need to close on them?

Since when league titles are won over a small period of games? You're nitpicking at that when I've said it's all about the consistency over 38 games. Also and more importantly, it's less about the points and more about the performances. If we maintain consistency over the performances, then the results will follow. Otherwise, we end up what we've been seeing this season (again) and over the last few seasons.

30 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Lille finish over PSG last season, now 18 points behind. Things like this happen all the time.

This is kinda a daft example. It was one of those seasons for Lille, where everything aligned for them. It's like when Leicester won the league. It's great for them but we also know it was gonna be a one off and they aren't a big enough side to sustain it season in season out. Are you happy with success like, winning the league once every blue moon? 

[Blue Armour 4,168]

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

 

Once you realize you are not in title race you may lose motivation and lose many more points you normally would not. So possibly it wont show the real gap.

 

Agree with this. Seen this happen all too often, and it doesn't take much for this squad to down tools. When the team is not within touching distance of 1st place they go on a holiday and then have a late rally to scurry into top 4.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Blue Armour

[Laylabelle 9,300]

12 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Agree with this. Seen this happen all too often, and it doesn't take much for this squad to down tools. When the team is not within touching distance of 1st place they go on a holiday and then have a late rally to scurry into top 4.

Hopefully not again this year especially after being top for a bit. Loosing ground to the likes of Arsenal..no thank you!

They need to remember the fans in all this who go to watch. They want to see a team trying not just strolling thinking meh.

Long way to go.. title unless something drastic happens to Citr/Liverpool and us is gone but still game to win and points to get.

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, Blue Armour said:

Agree with this. Seen this happen all too often, and it doesn't take much for this squad to down tools. When the team is not within touching distance of 1st place they go on a holiday and then have a late rally to scurry into top 4.

Or maybe, the team have never been good enough to challenge for the league and people over-estimated the squad especially after Guardiola and Klopp came to England and raised the bar. Furthermore, when you think about it, our last two title winning squads were brought to a title winning level by the same person - Mourinho. Since his sacking in 2015, we haven't had a manager who's built a title winning team before. Okay, there was Conte and fair play, he won us the league but he pretty much had the same squad formed by Mourinho and then of course, he gave up in his second season. Sarri had never won the league before coming here. Lampard was inexperienced. Tuchel has won league titles before but it was in Ligue 1, where he faced competition nowhere near as fierce and strong as the ones he faces now. 

[Vesper 27,336]

[Superblue 6,331]

26 minutes ago, Jase said:

Or maybe, the team have never been good enough to challenge for the league and people over-estimated the squad especially after Guardiola and Klopp came to England and raised the bar. Furthermore, when you think about it, our last two title winning squads were brought to a title winning level by the same person - Mourinho. Since his sacking in 2015, we haven't had a manager who's built a title winning team before. Okay, there was Conte and fair play, he won us the league but he pretty much had the same squad formed by Mourinho and then of course, he gave up in his second season. Sarri had never won the league before coming here. Lampard was inexperienced. Tuchel has won league titles before but it was in Ligue 1, where he faced competition nowhere near as fierce and strong as the ones he faces now. 

Agree with this but on the flip side both were given time, resources and influence greater than what our managers have been given.

Under our regime would Guardiola have made a second season. Probably but I don't think he would have been afforded the transfer budgets that he'd enjoyed at City. There's no way we would have binned players off as quick as some he has and bought just as expensive replacements. 

Klopp definitely wouldn't have been afforded the time he got at Liverpool here. 

I genuinely feel like Tuchel needs time. Whilst the Champions League win puts credit in the bank, it also adds pressure on him that this squad is better than it is in the eyes of the media and probably the board. I can hold my hands up and say I'm guilty of this too. Some players are fine and can do a job like Alonso for 15 - 20 games a season being rotated in, etc but when they're required for a significant part of the season they are clearly not up to task.

What Klopp and Guardiola have shown is that with the right manager, time and resources you can build long term success, something that we haven't really had since Mourinho's first team grew old and broke up. We've had patches like you said but nothing sustained. I do believe that Tuchel is the right manager to back and build something long term that can be sustained to regularly challenge City and Liverpool. It comes down to the board and Roman what they want...

[Jase 43,479]

8 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Agree with this but on the flip side both were given time, resources and influence greater than what our managers have been given.

Under our regime would Guardiola have made a second season. Probably but I don't think he would have been afforded the transfer budgets that he'd enjoyed at City. There's no way we would have binned players off as quick as some he has and bought just as expensive replacements. 

Klopp definitely wouldn't have been afforded the time he got at Liverpool here. 

I genuinely feel like Tuchel needs time. Whilst the Champions League win puts credit in the bank, it also adds pressure on him that this squad is better than it is in the eyes of the media and probably the board. I can hold my hands up and say I'm guilty of this too. Some players are fine and can do a job like Alonso for 15 - 20 games a season being rotated in, etc but when they're required for a significant part of the season they are clearly not up to task.

What Klopp and Guardiola have shown is that with the right manager, time and resources you can build long term success, something that we haven't really had since Mourinho's first team grew old and broke up. We've had patches like you said but nothing sustained. I do believe that Tuchel is the right manager to back and build something long term that can be sustained to regularly challenge City and Liverpool. It comes down to the board and Roman what they want...

Oh for sure. I'm not saying Tuchel should be sacked. Nowhere near it. Tuchel still has credit in the bank for the Champions League and Super Cup wins. Am just pointing out the reality vs the expectation of the squad when it comes to the title challenge. We have been more of a cup team than a league + cup team over the last decade. 

[Superblue 6,331]

16 minutes ago, Jase said:

Oh for sure. I'm not saying Tuchel should be sacked. Nowhere near it. Tuchel still has credit in the bank for the Champions League and Super Cup wins. Am just pointing out the reality vs the expectation of the squad when it comes to the title challenge. We have been more of a cup team than a league + cup team over the last decade. 

And your assessment is right. We have a good enough team to beat anyone on our day when everyone is fit and firing but the foundations don't seem to be there for a sustained title push throughout the season. Not with how the bar has been raised by Liverpool and especially City.

The biggest question to the board is are they happy with where we are at, winning some trophies but quite frankly coming nowhere near the league title. Or do they want to try and lay some longer term foundations to try and build towards that.

The signs would suggest in some instances that we are starting to look more long term. Our transfers in recent times have either been with long term in mind or they've been with the intention of improving the strongest XI rather than squad filling. The breakout of the academy players lends weight too to being able to grow stronger organically with a crop of players that haven't cost anything to take up squad spots, allowing us to focus on bigger and better signings.

A longer term managerial reign at Chelsea remains to be seen. 

[Laylabelle 9,300]

Hopefully looking at long time. We have players missing with injuries,this schedule has been crazy and top lot wise only us and City haven't had a game skipped. I hope things can be pulled together and not the easy option. Cause be back to square one and starting again..and again..and again..  formation and that and the subs being late is his problem..players suddenly not able to pass..who knows.

[laura90 556]

With so many players not wanting to renew contract and this Lukaku quotes, I'm afraid Tuchel time here is expiring. His days are numbered. Somebody needs to come and play to strengths to our star. I can't see Tuchel managing us at club world cup. This injuries and disastrous signings and squad managing are taking a toll at yet another manager.

We are not getting fourth place. With those injuries and pathetic summer signings and probably lack of January signings, we stand very little  chance. Alonso and Azpi  as wingbacks can only take us so far. Who ever manager we have in the process. As I said way before season started, Lukaku is taking you where you are  or is taking you down. He seems to have chosen the second option.

[NikkiCFC 7,588]

9 minutes ago, laura90 said:

With so many players not wanting to renew contract and this Lukaku quotes, I'm afraid Tuchel time here is expiring. His days are numbered. Somebody needs to come and play to strengths to our star. I can't see Tuchel managing us at club world cup. 

I hope he survives one more year. This is when manager I want will become available - Luis Enrique. Very impressed with him. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by NikkiCFC

[Superblue 6,331]

31 minutes ago, laura90 said:

With so many players not wanting to renew contract and this Lukaku quotes, I'm afraid Tuchel time here is expiring. His days are numbered. Somebody needs to come and play to strengths to our star. I can't see Tuchel managing us at club world cup. This injuries and disastrous signings and squad managing are taking a toll at yet another manager.

We are not getting fourth place. With those injuries and pathetic summer signings and probably lack of January signings, we stand very little  chance. Alonso and Azpi  as wingbacks can only take us so far. Who ever manager we have in the process. As I said way before season started, Lukaku is taking you where you are  or is taking you down. He seems to have chosen the second option.

Incredible that a few bad results under surreal circumstances, and people start questioning the manager.

Who are we expected to bring in that is going to get more out of this crop of players in it's current state? Somebody that is apparently going to play to the strengths of an inconsistent attacking group by playing more of them at the expense of defensive solidity? Because we've all seen Alonso at left back, Rudiger in a back 2 and Jorginho in a midfield 2 before with less support behind him. We will continue to be inconsistent in attack and get battered defensively.

No manager is sustaining results with the number of absences we've had to key players. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,200]

54 minutes ago, Hermione said:

The situation isn't that bad for Tuchel but he needs to get rid of all these deadwoods before we can move forward.

Who is matching CHO's 100K wages? 

Who is matching Ziyech's 120K wages?

Who is matching Pulisic's 150K wages?

Who is matching Werner's 170K wages?

 

Fact of the matter is we have too many players on high wages with little to no return in performance output. No club will touch CHO on those wages when they continue to see the amount of chances he squanders and poor decision making. No club will touch Ziyech on those wages when they see how weak he and inconsistent he is. No club will touch Pulisic on those wages when they see he hasn't had a good full season to his name. And no one will certainly match Werner's wages unless by some miracle either Dortmund or Bayern are feeling generous. You then add the likes of Alonso, Loftus-Cheek, Barkley, Sarr, Bakayoko, etc where we genuinely cannot do a thing until their contracts expire. 

This club will forever reap the consequences of having no long term vision or identity when it comes to buying players. 

[Clockwork 1,764]

55 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Incredible that a few bad results under surreal circumstances, and people start questioning the manager.

Who are we expected to bring in that is going to get more out of this crop of players in it's current state? Somebody that is apparently going to play to the strengths of an inconsistent attacking group by playing more of them at the expense of defensive solidity? Because we've all seen Alonso at left back, Rudiger in a back 2 and Jorginho in a midfield 2 before with less support behind him. We will continue to be inconsistent in attack and get battered defensively.

No manager is sustaining results with the number of absences we've had to key players. 

Regardless of injuries this side over performed in the first half of the season. Reece, Chilly, and other defenders provided a lot of timely goals and assists. It was only a matter of time before that dried out. Our attackers have not gotten the job done.

[NikkiCFC 7,588]

It's all doom and gloom at Chelsea but interesting fact is that we lost only one in the last 20 games. 

[OneMoSalah 8,615]

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

It's all doom and gloom at Chelsea but interesting fact is that we lost only one in the last 20 games. 

The irony of this is were you not saying Tuchel could get sacked and comparing him to Di Matteo like 2/3 weeks ago? Seems a sudden change of heart……

Edited December 31, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Superblue 6,331]

Thought Tuchel took the press conference well this morning. We really have our backs to the wall at the moment which the club has historically thrived on in recent times, so hope to see a reaction starting this weekend.