The Tuchel Thread

[Laylabelle 9,292]

I never expected us to challenge for the title so being where we are is no surprise.

What is my concern is the way we've dropped points. Not so much City but from games we were winning it. I know before it was 11 points dropped from winning positions not sure now. And also other games where we dominate,have all the chances and then only win because of a penalty. Yes getting penalty and all but that shouldn't be our ticket to winning a game. Should be able to score without. Which we struggle with some games.

[Jase 43,479]

27 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

What is the point of that article? If Mount started everything would be perfect? 

Gotta say, the Mount narrative from the English media is extremely tiring. When he doesn't start and we lose, they all bang their table and say he should have started. When he starts but doesn't do well and we lose, they don't say a bloody single thing. Mount has his own inconsistent issues and the bar isn't set very high if they are comparing with the other attackers in the team. 

[Tomo 21,681]

34 minutes ago, Jase said:

Gotta say, the Mount narrative from the English media is extremely tiring. When he doesn't start and we lose, they all bang their table and say he should have started. When he starts but doesn't do well and we lose, they don't say a bloody single thing. Mount has his own inconsistent issues and the bar isn't set very high if they are comparing with the other attackers in the team. 

Unfortunately that's their MO in general. Look at the difference in reaction to Martial wanting out compared to Kane last summer.

[NikkiCFC 7,562]

15 minutes ago, Jase said:

Gotta say, the Mount narrative from the English media is extremely tiring. When he doesn't start and we lose, they all bang their table and say he should have started. When he starts but doesn't do well and we lose, they don't say a bloody single thing. Mount has his own inconsistent issues and the bar isn't set very high if they are comparing with the other attackers in the team. 

Not just media, saw it even here. When criticizing our attackers people say things like bar Mount.

Would not focus on anyone of 7 attackers in any way. Positive or negative. But gotta respond when I see things like that.

In August, Sep, Oct and Nov he had just Norwich. December was great scored in 4 games in a row but as expected it was just a honeymoon period. He had those in 2 previous seasons as well.

19/20 4 goals of 7 from 2nd to 8th round

20/21 4 goals of 6 from 23rd to 30th round

Now exactly month since last goal (8 games he played).

Also of his 7 goals just one is against team higher than 15th place on table.

He had 3 really good games this season Norwich, WH and Watford. Against Everton and Leeds he also scored but when you have 2 sitters and score one miss other and do nothing else you did not have a good game.

Of all attackers:

Lukaku scored in 7 games around 400 mins less than Mount played 

Werner in 6 around 800 mins less than him

Mount in 5 

Havertz in 5 300 mins less 

Ziyech in 4 around 500 mins less

Pulisic in 3 around 800 mins less 

CHO in 3 around 350 mins less

How is he better than any of them? 

So really want to understand that narrative that exclude Mount from our attacking problems. 

Our best games this season maybe Juve 4:0 he did not start, Spurs 0:3 replaced at half time we scored all 3 goals in 2nd half.

Biggest praise he get this season is when we lost to City x2 and Juve in Italy because he did not play. That is all you need to now.

But I have bigger expectations from some others so I am less upset with him but just annoyed with this narrative about him. I swear I saw POTY campaign started already 😂

 

 

[milka 3,305]

 

[NikkiCFC 7,562]

Article also says superb understanding between Mount and Chilwell for club and a country. When that happened? Chilwell did not play EURO and in 2020 for England and Mount is very underwhelming for ENG from reactions I saw.

[Blue Armour 4,158]

3 hours ago, Blues Forever said:

Problems with a big signing, a slump in form and results, and cut adrift of the Premier League leaders. Sound familiar, Chelsea fans? That’s because it is.

Thomas Tuchel has blamed bad luck and bad scheduling in terms of Covid cases, injuries and the fixture list. But there have also been bad decisions from the head coach, who must be careful not to allow the start of his second year at the club to spin into what has been an all too familiar cycle of discontent.

When Chelsea were soundly beaten by Leicester City almost a year ago to the day, in what proved to be Frank Lampard’s final game in charge, the west London side had dropped 19 points over the course of 12 games. Fast forward 12 months and Saturday’s defeat to Manchester City meant Tuchel’s Chelsea have now dropped 18 points over their past 12 games in the Premier League.

The table looks far more encouraging for Chelsea, of course, but they have now fallen 13 points behind leaders City as the German’s first anniversary at the club approaches.

When Lampard was sacked, Chelsea were nine points behind City and 11 behind Manchester United, who were top of the table at the time. But, crucially in terms of the former midfielder’s sacking, his team sat in ninth place.

Any Chelsea manager will find himself in trouble if his side are mid-table, no matter how temporarily, but there were other factors at play in Lampard’s sacking. The two big signings of the previous summer, Kai Havertz and Timo Werner, were struggling while there had been fall-outs with big characters such as Antonio Rudiger and Marcos Alonso.

A year later, Chelsea seem to be stuck in a familiar pattern. This time, Romelu Lukaku is the big-money signing who cannot seem to show his best form in a blue shirt and it is the Belgian with whom the latest head coach does not appear to see eye-to-eye.

Lukaku was dropped for his controversial Sky Italia interview and then reinstated by Tuchel, who had insisted that the situation had been dealt with calmly, despite sources claiming there had been at least one heated conversation between the pair.

Having watched Lukaku miss one good chance and pass instead of shoot against City, Tuchel risked upsetting Chelsea’s club record signing once again.

“He had many ball losses without pressure and in very promising circumstances,” said Tuchel. “Of course, we want to serve him but he is part of the team and sometimes he needs to do service as well. He had a huge chance so he’s included in this.

“He is part of the team and the performances up front, especially in the first half, we can do much better and we need to do better.”

The best way to serve Lukaku might have been to have Chelsea’s most creative asset playing alongside him against City and yet Mason Mount, who Tuchel berated during the Carabao Cup semi-final second-leg success over Tottenham Hotspur, was benched.

His critics will tell you that Mount has not been as consistently good this season and yet he ranks joint first in assists with Reece James, who is injured, and is the club’s third top-scorer.

Mount has often been asked to play out of his most natural position, which is off the left, and has so far suffered from the injury of Ben Chilwell more than any other player as the pair had struck up a superb understanding for club and country.

The front three Tuchel fielded against City, Lukaku, Christian Pulisic and Hakim Ziyech had never started a game together before, while the front three that combined so effectively in last season’s Champions League final victory over Guardiola’s team, Mount, Havertz and Werner, all started on the substitutes’ bench at the weekend.

Given how Lampard revealed Mount used to react to being left out of the team, it would be fair to assume that the England international would have been furious to have lost his place for such a big game - particularly as those who replaced him had done little to deserve to.

It is interesting to note that Tuchel had informed Chelsea that Lampard’s team had suffered from bad luck when he was first approached to succeed the club legend and initially queried if they were sure about wanting to make a change.

Tuchel, too, has been the victim of misfortune, particularly with the injuries to Chilwell, Reece James and Trevoh Chalobah, and the season remains very much alive with a Carabao Cup final, the FA Cup, the Club World Cup and a Champions League last-16 date to look forward to.

With their top-four status currently not in danger, as it was this time last year, Chelsea will not be worrying too much yet and, as we saw in Tuchel’s first year, the campaign could still end on a huge high. Equally, if the familiar cycle takes hold, he could face a stormy start to his second year in the hot seat.

The start of the article reads like something coming from a Lukaku apologist 

I doubt many fans could care less about what Lukaku thinks of the manager,  especially when the striker has underperformed like he has.

That said do agree that Tuchel's choice of front 3 for City was a bizarre one. Even if Mount/Werner/Havertz were below par in recent games, what made him think that Ziyech and Pulisic were a better alternative? 

They were horrible in the first half. And he refused to even swap one of them at the start of the second.

Things like that make his judgement questionable at times. Thankfully these kind of bizarre moments have been few and far between, at least until now.

[laura90 556]

HIs line up yesterday looked to me like line up from manager who waits to be fired. I knew he was done when we spent all money on donkey and dismantled entire team and system to fit him in. Not that we had the best players. But we still owed them the chance to improve and show their worth.

Front three that defeated city more than once the last season were sitting on the bench while two players and donkey, that never played together before, were doing their nothing. Zero touches in the box. Zero headers won. Almost zero balls well received. Zero crosses well taken.

Nobody in that team believed we stand a chance.  It looked to me neither did the  coach.  You don't put this against the best team in the league and expect good results. Unless you are stupid.

 

 

[Superblue 6,331]

1 hour ago, Blue Armour said:

The start of the article reads like something coming from a Lukaku apologist 

I doubt many fans could care less about what Lukaku thinks of the manager,  especially when the striker has underperformed like he has.

That said do agree that Tuchel's choice of front 3 for City was a bizarre one. Even if Mount/Werner/Havertz were below par in recent games, what made him think that Ziyech and Pulisic were a better alternative? 

They were horrible in the first half. And he refused to even swap one of them at the start of the second.

Things like that make his judgement questionable at times. Thankfully these kind of bizarre moments have been few and far between, at least until now.

To be fair Ziyech started and scored in two of the wins against City last season so at least there's previous form against the opposition with that choice.

Pulisic is the strange one. I think Tuchel expected we'd be playing a good chunk of the game on the counter and therefore a quicker player would be needed who could support or even run beyond Lukaku. I would have chosen Timo for that role, but has only recently returned from covid and maybe Tuchel felt Pulisic therefore was the better option for that role.

I personally am not sold on Pulisic the most out of all our attackers. He had a real purple patch after lockdown a couple of years ago but has not kicked on and in my opinion regressed a lot. Although to be fair he's actually been one of the few players to remain fit throughout the last few weeks, he regularly seems to pick up niggles and muscle injuries which hampers any progress he appears to be making. 

At least with Werner and Mount their pressing and willingness to work for the team can go for them when they're attacking play is inconsistent. Havertz has the capability of linking play and making others around him better and Ziyech offers something different to the rest with his passing range when he's playing well. I also think that whilst CHO can be incredibly frustrating at times, he always seems more willing to get involved in play and on the ball.

Unfortunately when Pulisic isn't contributing much in attack he is far more anonymous in my opinion then the rest and for me, he'd be the first player I would look at as 'disposable' if we were to look at attacking options in the summer.

[NikkiCFC 7,562]

People are overreacting with the lineup. Lukaku for Havertz is only surprise for me.

When we beat them in the league last season front 3 was Pulisic, Ziyech and Werner. CHO came from the bench. Mount and Havertz did not play at all. In that game Alonso and Gilmour also started!

Azpi as wing back assisted for Ziyech goal, and Werner for Alonso winner. Just like in cup when Werner assisted another Ziyech goal against them. Would also start Jorginho from this point of view.

But biggest problem was approach not lineup.

 

[OneMoSalah 8,611]

36 minutes ago, laura90 said:

HIs line up yesterday looked to me like line up from manager who waits to be fired.
 

No offence but someone has to say it, what an absolute crock of shite. ‘That line up is the line up of a manager who wants to get fired?’ Jesus Christ.

Look at the injuries we’ve got, Andreas was also missing through COVID so Sarr had to play and then look at the inconsistencies/underperforming players in attack we have. The team was basically as strong as it could of been whatever way you look at it.

You’d think he put the under 23s out going off your reaction/comment.

[Clockwork 1,762]

It says a lot about Tuchel how he has squeezed so much out of Rudigar, Silva, AC, Chalobah, Azpi(LCB), etc. heck what he has done with Sarr is quite amazing, he was struggling in Portugal and couldn’t get minutes there, and Tuchel has made him serviceable,

on the flip side he has done terrible job with our attackers, his system is very much at fault. Our attackers are way too isolated and left without options, let’s compare that to City. Where they have LB/RB overlapping and Bernardo and KDB through midfield. 
 

 

[Magic Lamps 11,444]

1 hour ago, Clockwork said:

It says a lot about Tuchel how he has squeezed so much out of Rudigar, Silva, AC, Chalobah, Azpi(LCB), etc. heck what he has done with Sarr is quite amazing, he was struggling in Portugal and couldn’t get minutes there, and Tuchel has made him serviceable,

on the flip side he has done terrible job with our attackers, his system is very much at fault. Our attackers are way too isolated and left without options, let’s compare that to City. Where they have LB/RB overlapping and Bernardo and KDB through midfield. 
 

 

True, It is TTs  system that makes defenders shine and attackers stagnate. At psg it did not really matter cos he had Neymar and knappe. At Dortmund he had very poor defenders which looked somewhat alright. But compares to the defenses Dortmund faced his attackers (prime mikhitaryan, Reus and auba) were still better than ours vs average epl defence.
 

In our formation bc the cm/s don’t join the attack the AMs and the ST will always be outnumbered when going inside restricting their goal output potential. The wing backs however will be afforded more space either out wide when our AM/winger has dragged the opposition fullback into the channel or inside when there is an overlapping run. TT made use of this by encouraging RJ and chilly to make those high runs to get into scoring positions. So the attackers are actually the water carriers creating space and wearing defenders down. 
 

Now we basically lost our most valuable atttacking threats. without changing formation we are effectively 2 attackers down as Azpi and Alonso just are not adequate back ups. Playing Cho and pukisic as wing backs has not really worked cos both are out of form and confidence. 
 

Unsurprisingly, our best performances after chillys acl year have come with a back 4 when we create and overload in midfield which leads to more spaces between the lines. Unfortunately our profligate attackers have spurned most resulting chances but at least they were created . 

[Superblue 6,331]

I think we'll see more use of the back 4 as the season wears on.

For me this weekend just continued to prove with the United and West Ham results that I don't think the teams below us are capable and consistent enough to go on sustained runs of wins that we can't match or better in the second half of this season, let alone 2 teams doing so. 

Obviously we need to start picking up and improving our form now but we've now played Liverpool and City twice, and after Brighton this week I think the only other team in the top 10 we have to play away are United. On paper, our fixture list for the remainder of the season should be a lot more kinder than the teams chasing us.

I think a back 4 would have left us far more exposed against City and a back 3 was the safe call, but against most other teams in the league it could be an option to get the attack firing a little more with an extra attacking body. 

[Jase 43,479]

6 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Although to be fair he's actually been one of the few players to remain fit throughout the last few weeks, he regularly seems to pick up niggles and muscle injuries which hampers any progress he appears to be making. 

Pulisic has had only ONE notable injury since late November 2020 and it wasn't even due to his body breaking down like it has many times before! Otherwise, he has been available for selection and he hasn't come close to replicating the form he showed during Project Restart, which at this point looked like a purple patch and nothing else.

6 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

People are overreacting with the lineup. Lukaku for Havertz is only surprise for me.

When we beat them in the league last season front 3 was Pulisic, Ziyech and Werner. CHO came from the bench. Mount and Havertz did not play at all. In that game Alonso and Gilmour also started!

Azpi as wing back assisted for Ziyech goal, and Werner for Alonso winner. Just like in cup when Werner assisted another Ziyech goal against them. Would also start Jorginho from this point of view.

But biggest problem was approach not lineup.

The approach was probably the same as last season and not saying we would have 100% won but when you select the wrong players to execute the plan, then we ended up with what we saw on Saturday.

Only one of our attackers started all those 3 wins last season and played a key part in the tactical plan, including all the winning goals and yet was on the bench.

If we go further, another of our attackers started in 2 of the wins last season, was key in them and contributed an assist to a winning goal and yet was on the bench. Then another one, who scored a winning goal and was key in a cup final, was on the bench. 

Pulisic may have started in the same fixture last season but he did nothing in that game and wasn't a key part in any of those wins. Heck, he has been underwhelming since Project Restart. You may say he scored against Liverpool recently but outside of that, he did nothing in that game and was non-existent in his last outing against a non-league side before Saturday. Ended up doing zilch on Saturday anyway.

Ziyech starting, that I can still understand, as he has been decent recently (and he scored twice against the same team last season) but then those performances came from the right and Tuchel decided to stick him out on the left on Saturday. 

[Tomo 21,681]

On 16/01/2022 at 13:28, Clockwork said:

Disagree, the way Chillwill and Reece were scoring was not sustainable. Their goals were a big reason for our good start.

I disliked the Lukaku signing as much as anyone, and no doubt we are better without him but forward plays continue to be a big challenge with or without him.

 

If they were fluke goals I'd agree but they were practically playing like number 10s in possession and getting into the right areas.

Many thought Trent and Robertson's freak productivity wasn't sustainable and look at them now.

Not saying we don't need a couple of the forward player's to step up we very much do but I don't think that was a fluke purple patch from those two, far from it.

[Blue Armour 4,158]

20 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

To be fair Ziyech started and scored in two of the wins against City last season so at least there's previous form against the opposition with that choice.

Pulisic is the strange one. I think Tuchel expected we'd be playing a good chunk of the game on the counter and therefore a quicker player would be needed who could support or even run beyond Lukaku. I would have chosen Timo for that role, but has only recently returned from covid and maybe Tuchel felt Pulisic therefore was the better option for that role.

I personally am not sold on Pulisic the most out of all our attackers. He had a real purple patch after lockdown a couple of years ago but has not kicked on and in my opinion regressed a lot. Although to be fair he's actually been one of the few players to remain fit throughout the last few weeks, he regularly seems to pick up niggles and muscle injuries which hampers any progress he appears to be making. 

At least with Werner and Mount their pressing and willingness to work for the team can go for them when they're attacking play is inconsistent. Havertz has the capability of linking play and making others around him better and Ziyech offers something different to the rest with his passing range when he's playing well. I also think that whilst CHO can be incredibly frustrating at times, he always seems more willing to get involved in play and on the ball.

Unfortunately when Pulisic isn't contributing much in attack he is far more anonymous in my opinion then the rest and for me, he'd be the first player I would look at as 'disposable' if we were to look at attacking options in the summer.

If you look at Ziyech and Pulisic individually, yes, there seems to be merit in including at least one of them. As you mentioned rightly, Ziyech has some history against them. Pulisic too, with his speed has got behind the City back line before to score.

It's the combination of having two of them together with Lukaku that bothered me, because like you said later, their work rate is poor compared to either Werner or Mount.  And we know Lukaku doesn't press.

[Jase 43,479]

10 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

If you look at Ziyech and Pulisic individually, yes, there seems to be merit in including at least one of them. As you mentioned rightly, Ziyech has some history against them. Pulisic too, with his speed has got behind the City back line before to score.

But that was 2 seasons ago now and it was during his purple patch in the Project Restart period. Also, that goal came from a breakaway in a set piece where City fucked up their defending near the halfway line, IIRC. Any of our other attackers could have been in that situation (whether they score or not is a different matter). Otherwise, he has been largely underwhelming since then. I'm also mystified when people say Pulisic run in behind defences. Yes, he can do that but that's not his natural game. He's one who prefers to receive the ball to feet and then get at players, which again, is something he hasn't done much with at all since the Project Restart.