The Mourinho Thread

[The Chels 2,502]

My argument is that if we played the high press game with our squad we'd concede possession far too often in dangerous situations and get countered to death. Pick the best back five on the planet, put them in that situation and they'd concede goals for fun. If we played that way we'd win as much as Leverkausen do.

Sides hoping to be successful playing that style need to be packed with players who are good at recovering and retaining possession. That requires a critical mass of players with high energy, great touch, poise in possession, tight close control, rapid speed of thought and accurate passing. I say a critical mass because it only takes one Ramires, Willian, Oscar, or Mikel to break the chain and we not only have those four, we also have more where they came from.

My point re Barca is that most of our starters wouldn't even get in their squad precisely because our lot don't have the qualities to play the Barca way. I know it's only my opinion but I simply do not believe you are right to think that our current squad can be successful playing the way you want us to. The inescapable conclusion is that you rate our players more highly than I do.

I personally believe that the current big-game system of trying to start counter attacks from deep within our own half highlights the weaknesses of said players more than a pressing system would do. The current tactics require us to make a string of correct decisions and accurate passes which is perhaps why our counter attacks have looked so poor. In addition to Hazard and Costa I feel like our more limited players (e.g. Ramires, Willian) would thrive on a system which encourages mobility, athleticism and making fewer correct decisions with the ball (by winning the ball higher up the pitch). You could argue we would be made more defensively vulnerable with the higher line that would be required but it's not as though the current system is working particularly well in making us defensively solid. We have been penned back (willingly or otherwise) into our own half so many times against big teams this season and we usually end up conceding or with the GK making a save. Change the defence to Azpi-Zouma-Terry-Luis and it means the whole team is more suited to a pressing game IMO.

What Jose did in many Real Madrid games (particularly against Barca) was to press high for the first 20 or so minutes and then sit back more afterwards. Atletico also use a variation of this and it would be nice to see it here. Why we do we have to be passive and deep for the entire 90 minutes when we could play more aggressively and proactively, at least for periods of the game? I get the impression that the 'sit deep & wait for a mistake' kind of tactics we've been seeing is what Jose ultimately prefers. If we'd fucked up so many times after taking the lead by playing aggressively and with a higher line would Jose have changed something? Absolutely. Has he done the reverse? Nope which suggests we're already using his default preference regardless of personnel.

Clearly you think that our more limited players would be hindered by a pressing system but I actually think the opposite (assuming the defence were changed) in that their limitations would be masked more. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Blue Colored Sky 1,807]

My argument is that if we played the high press game with our squad we'd concede possession far too often in dangerous situations and get countered to death. Pick the best back five on the planet, put them in that situation and they'd concede goals for fun. If we played that way we'd win as much as Leverkausen do.

Sides hoping to be successful playing that style need to be packed with players who are good at recovering and retaining possession. That requires a critical mass of players with high energy, great touch, poise in possession, tight close control, rapid speed of thought and accurate passing. I say a critical mass because it only takes one Ramires, Willian, Oscar, or Mikel to break the chain and we not only have those four, we also have more where they came from.

My point re Barca is that most of our starters wouldn't even get in their squad precisely because our lot don't have the qualities to play the Barca way. I know it's only my opinion but I simply do not believe you are right to think that our current squad can be successful playing the way you want us to. The inescapable conclusion is that you rate our players more highly than I do.

Blimey ! Leverkusen can spend 10m€ on Son and call it a "big transfer". They have worse chance of winning anything because of their financial limits not style of play ...

I read here that we're a team on a budget While a player like Hazard only came here because we offered him and his agent the most money. Same with Diego Costa, agent got a hefty cheque to bring him here. We spend the most money in the Premier League on agents in the last couple of seasons ... But ok.

We have enough quality and variety to play better and be more on the front foot. But Jose simply isn't creative enough. The only creative thing that he's done so far is converting Azpilicueta to LB. Oh, yeah, there's also switch Zouma and David Luiz to play DM-destroyer position. Of course it's only defensive changes. Going forward, he rather dispose someone who isn't perfect enough than fit him and change his position.

One example is Juan Mata. He changed his position last season to play RW resulting in that Mata had fewer goals in the league than John Obi Mikel ... Didn't record single assisst, despite having 35 of those season before.

That's him basically. He uses ready models and try to improve them, if they're talented enough and fits the mould enough then they can become a real, real special under his guidance.

He has to get there in the market and buy his disciples who are of high quality as well.

That's why I hope he find his 'Maicon' who falls into his type of full-back category so is tall, fast, powerful and fantastic in both ends of the pitch, because experiment of turning Ivanovic into Maicon is failing.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,058]

Clearly you think that our more limited players would be hindered by a pressing system but I actually think the opposite (assuming the defence were changed) in that their limitations would be masked more. We'll have to agree to disagree.

This seems to me to be a reasonable enough point. I've enjoyed reading your posts even though I generally disagree with your conclusions on this topic. The next bit of evidence will come next season when, fingers crossed, the squad will have been strengthened. If that is so and the football does not improve then you might well claim that would give more weight to your case.

I'm desperate for two or three clear upgrades over the summer, which I expect will enable us to play better football more consistently. I'm not anticipating seeing the finished article next term, but I am hopeful that we'll be closer to it than we are now. I'm also desperate that Jose will be the man continuing to lead the development. Next September will mark my 50th anniversary as a Chelsea fan. In all that time Jose is the only manager I've believed in. I'm a tough crowd.

[Joker10 946]

I'll take the PL in any state over the CL. The best judgement for a team is ALWAYS the league. The best team in it winning the CL is the exception, while the best team in the league almost always wins it.

I don't follow your argument. I simply just read this sentence like 100 times, i still don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

We had an absolute unbalanced mess off a squad when Mou returned, no top class CM, no top class striker, Terry looking like he was past it, attacking midfield we had Mata who was great but since has been proved he isn't top top bracket, Hazard who is but was really young infact bar Cech we had not one top bracket player anywhere near the prime, infact the more I look back at that squad the more I think Rafa performed a minor miracle getting us 3rd and EL.

Jose with a £36m net spend has turned that unbalanced mess (£9m per transfer window for perspective) into genuine title contenders, the fact that there is a general reluctance to credit him for that is quite frankly mind blowing.

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talented players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

[Amblève. 4,995]

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spend a lot of money and he also soled a lot of talent players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

Thank you. At least one person on this forum is able to read properly what I said.

Mou shouldn't get any credit for us having a balanced budget. He was lucky as I already said that there were quality players and huge talents in the squad already when he took over. It was the front office that was able to get a good financial return for players like Mata etc, not Mourinho. However, demanding players that fit his playing style now that's on Mourinho. The amount we paid for said players relative to their output on the pitch is ridiculous.

[Rom2013 446]

I don't follow your argument. I simply read this sentence like 100 times, i don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talent players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

The League normally is won by the best team (or one of the best teams if they are similar) the CHampions League it's not as simple as that, for example in the past 11 seasons we have 4 underdogs winning the competition:

Porto 2004

Liverpool 2005

Inter 2010

Chelsea 2012

And that happens because it's a cup like the FA Cup or any other cup. For example Portsmouth and Wigan also won the FA Cup but they wouldn't do it in the League in a million attempts.

The Champions League is more important than the League, it's more unpredictable, there are always 8 great teams fighting for it, it's a cup and it's not the best way to measure the value of a team. Rea Madrid was horrible in some of their Champions League wins being 6th like Chelsea was in 2012.

About the money spent we have 2 problems. The first one was that Chelsea had a structural deficit of something like 50M£ (I don't know if this is the number but it's something like this, for example in 2013 we had a deficit between 35M£ and 50M£) and we had to sell, we had no other option.

You can say if this player is a Mourinho player, or the other one is not... or what you want... even if Mourinho was in love with his 25 players in 2013 we would need to sell 4, 5 or 6 really good players to pass the new FFP rules.

The other problem is that it's not the same to sell 200M£ in players and buy another 200M£, or just buy 200M£... I think that's obvious.

If United sells Di Maria for 50M£ and buy Bale for 60M£ maybe they will improve their team, if they have Di Maria and Bale they will have an incredible team.

In the last 2 seasons United spent 237M£ in players and sold 45M£ for a net spending of 192M£.

In the last 2 seasons City spent 190M£ in players and sold 30M£ in players for a net spending of 160M£.

In the last 2 seasons Arsenal spent 150M£ in players and sold 30M£ in players for a net spending of 120M£

In the last 2 seasons Chelsea spent 235M£ in players and sold 200M£ in players for a net spending of 35M£.

The numbers are clear. And if United continue spending like this there is no way we can compete with them in the future. We were clearly the team that spent less money and the team with the best evolution in the past 2 seasons.

And yes the team was horrible in every aspect when Mourinho started his job.

[Muzchap 8,966]

I don't follow your argument. I simply just read this sentence like 100 times, i still don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talented players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

Hmm you say best teams in Europe and then the World? CL only covers Europe

But aside from that - fair points. But Spurs have spent big and are still shit. Spending <> Success - although it certainly helps

[Spike 12,049]

The fact that we assembled a great team on a modest budget, whilst complying with FFP is to be applauded, however it's clear to see our small stadium is REALLY punishing us compared to the teams around us in the EPL and massively restricting us in Europe. Therefore, until that is addressed it's unlikely we will be able to spend at the rate of UTD.

Great post, Muzchap but there are two words I disagree with. I have bolded them for emphasis. Perhaps relative to the spending of previous years and other rich teams, Chelsea has been modest. But in the grand scheme of the world Chelsea has spent more than £30,0000 each on Hazard, Fabregas, Costa, and Willian alone and to be honest there isn't much modest about that sort of money.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Great post, Muzchap but there are two words I disagree with. I have bolded them for emphasis. Perhaps relative to the spending of previous years and other rich teams, Chelsea has been modest. But in the grand scheme of the world Chelsea has spent more than £30,0000 each on Hazard, Fabregas, Costa, and Willian alone and to be honest there isn't much modest about that sort of money.

Good point - my baseline for 'modest' is now slightly higher due to the ridiculous overpriced transfers every window.

Soon the £50 million for TORRES will look normal.

It's a shame as FFP hasn't really worked and prices have still increased year on year. I think a cap on xfer fee is the only likely scenario in the future... Legally it could only work in Europe I guess (single commom market) and xfer from International countries would have to remain uncapped - but they could legislate around the Work Permit element. It's a tough one...

[Styles 9,790]

Very good discussions going on here.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

Good point - my baseline for 'modest' is now slightly higher due to the ridiculous overpriced transfers every window.

Soon the £50 million for TORRES will look normal.

It's a shame as FFP hasn't really worked and prices have still increased year on year. I think a cap on xfer fee is the only likely scenario in the future... Legally it could only work in Europe I guess (single commom market) and xfer from International countries would have to remain uncapped - but they could legislate around the Work Permit element. It's a tough one...

or biasing TV money towards lower placed clubs to keep them in the game.

[Muzchap 8,966]

or biasing TV money towards lower placed clubs to keep them in the game.

In theory that could work - but you could get a situation where a team 'sandbags' their performance to finish 17th (not relegated) to obtain the most money - rather than finishing 15th. In essence - it rewards not being competitive.

I guess as always in life there is no magic bullet - but a hybrid of CAP and equalisation of monies ( so 17-1) all get the same could be a fairer measure of true performance. However - all EUROPEAN leagues would need to sign up to this.

It certainly would make the leagues interesting and the extra share of money would ensure clubs could reduce ticket prices and still generate enough for them to be profitable - whilst placing football back in the reach of the working man.

I would certainly vote for such a system.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

In theory that could work - but you could get a situation where a team 'sandbags' their performance to finish 17th (not relegated) to obtain the most money - rather than finishing 15th. In essence - it rewards not being competitive.

I guess as always in life there is no magic bullet - but a hybrid of CAP and equalisation of monies ( so 17-1) all get the same could be a fairer measure of true performance. However - all EUROPEAN leagues would need to sign up to this.

It certainly would make the leagues interesting and the extra share of money would ensure clubs could reduce ticket prices and still generate enough for them to be profitable - whilst placing football back in the reach of the working man.

I would certainly vote for such a system.

The difference wouldn't be huge, we're talking +10 or so million on what the first placed club gets, and that'd get offset by lost shirt sales, neutral support, and no European competition if a top side really did decide to go that far about cheating the system.

Most of the top 8 sides in football are owned by billionaires these days of which £10m is like losing a £10 note anyway, so I think it would balance the system. The only clubs I can see doing that are clubs like Newcastle, because they're short termist. It'd actually present itself opportunities for lower clubs like Crystal Palace who want to do better to do better in the league to get a higher league placing and therefore increase player interest in joining them.

[The Mak 4,459]

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

Not to mention the £70m+ José has spent on the one position, the RW, which is currently still not fixed... Also, with both KDB and Salah currently playing out of their socks (and Cuadrado currently resembling more of a stocking of shit by comparison), it is increasingly looking like José has made an absolute dogs dinner of this position in particular.

[didierforever 7,349]

Not to mention the £70m+ José has spent on the one position, the RW, which is currently still not fixed... Also, with both KDB and Salah currently playing out of their socks (and Cuadrado currently resembling more of a stocking of shit by comparison), it is increasingly looking like José has made an absolute dogs dinner of this position in particular.

see this is something which i dont get.

you cant use 70mil along with citing kdb,salah etc too. if u want to cite kdb, salah etc then the better way of putting it is jose spent (32+27+11=70 mil minus mata=37, kdb=17, so net of 16mil, infact make it 12mil since schurrle was bought for 18 and sold for 22) and still has not solved the problem.

so jose has a net spend of 12 mil for one position for whom he simply has not been able to find a match winner