The Mourinho Thread

[Tomo 21,733]

Why do only the last 2 seasons matter? Excuse me Mourinho was given a full squad instead of only 2 or 3 players. The mere reason we haven't spent much money during Mou's second time here is because we have had good enough players already in the team before Mou arrived that we then sold to make money and room for "Mou players".

We had an absolute unbalanced mess off a squad when Mou returned, no top class CM, no top class striker, Terry looking like he was past it, attacking midfield we had Mata who was great but since has been proved he isn't top top bracket, Hazard who is but was really young infact bar Cech we had not one top bracket player anywhere near the prime, infact the more I look back at that squad the more I think Rafa performed a minor miracle getting us 3rd and EL.

Jose with a £36m net spend has turned that unbalanced mess (£9m per transfer window for perspective) into genuine title contenders, the fact that there is a general reluctance to credit him for that is quite frankly mind blowing.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

First off it's the managers responsibility and duty to recognise and fix the inadequacies of his team and he's had two full seasons to do so that's after making empty and boastful promises of seeking to play more attacking football. He even said we have no other choice but to play attacking football due to the type and profile of players we have which contradicts your point and his actions so far.

Now how did riijkard and guardiola barca manage to play highline and free flowing football with puyol (jt lite) as the main CB. Mertasacker and koscienly are no quicker or more suitable to playing highline than jt and cahill/zouma. Fernando hiero and riofor madrid and utd respectively werent exactly pacy either. The way I see it, your argument is just a load of excuses.

our squad is sufficient enough to play better football than we have done thos season and if jose was a manager capable of playing such football, he would have found a way

I think you are wrong about this. Badly wrong, if you'll forgive me for saying so.

Firstly, although it hardly needs saying, let's put an obvious truth front and centre of the discussion. It's not just a matter of playing an attack minded, high pressing, high line, game. Any team and any manager can do that whenever they want. Arsenal, with a collection of highly technical players, did exactly that at Stamford Bridge, Anfield and The Etihad last season. 17-4. Great work Arsene. The trick of course is to be successful playing that way. It's a heck of a trick however and it requires very good players but more on that in a moment.

I hope I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth when I say that Wenger is not alone, we at Chelsea also crave beautiful, attacking football. I have no argument with you about that but I judge the current squad as being unable to deliver that while also winning enough matches. There were no Arsenal fans crowing about pretty football after those three humiliations last season, and who can blame them? We all want beautiful wins but we'll all accept ugly ones in preference to ugly defeats.

I think the key difference between you and me is that, while you've made it clear that you think our squad can win by playing the way you describe, I do not. Barcelona can but they would not even consider offering a squad place to any of Willian, Oscar, Costa, Cuadrado, Ramires, Mikel or Ivanovic. Players who, between them, will make hundreds of appearances for us this season. Some of our other outfield players might be considered for squad places in Barcelona but I doubt any, not even Eden, would be first choice. Certainly not Cesc for example.

Barcelona have been the ultimate example of how good a pressing team can be but the first lesson to take from their example is the quality of players required to succeed that way. Forget their defenders, that's not how Barca defend. They recover the ball high and they are exceptionally good at retaining it once they have. That's because they have a critical mass of players who can receive a pass, even a bad one, in tight situations and do something positive with it. We don't.

I think it is unrealistic of you to expect that the appalling squad of June 2013 can have been completely overhauled in 21 months. You may disagree but my own opinion in 2013 was that we were 8 quality players short of what was required to make Chelsea the side we'd all like them to be. If that number was right, and I think it was, it meant finding a lot of players with the right quality, the right age, the right work permit qualifications, the right FFP costs, and the right availability to Chelsea.

That kind of recruitment is very difficult but you are right to say that it should not be beyond a club with our resources. Thing is, a club with our resources should never have been in the mess Jose inherited on his return. He has my confidence that he'll fix the mess but if we are still in the same position four transfer windows from now things will be different. For now however, I believe that realistic progress is being made.

[The Chels 2,502]

Unless next season I am proven wrong, the only reason why we don't play such flowing football is because the players in some positions are inadequate for what we need, at least now. For example, we need a high line to play offensive football, and against bigger sides that press us that becomes a problem, which is why we retreat, imo. Our youngest lineup possible is passable but firstly he never plays Azpi and Luis together, and Ivanovic causes severe weaknesses on our defence, especially when it's Cahill who is exposed. (Azpi-Zouma-Terry-Luis) and to fix this we need a new fullback to act as second choice to Azpi/Luis and a fast centre back to pair with Zouma against such sides.

We have within our squad the ability to change the defence such that we are capable of playing a more proactive defensive game (as you say: Azpi, Zouma, Terry, Luis) but Jose hasn't suggested that he is interested in making these changes. If he did then we'd be lining up with more mobile defenders who are more compatible with a high-intensity pressing game but ultimately he has shown clear preference to the current defence even though it is very limiting in the big games especially, perhaps because it gives him an excuse to play the reactive, passive football he craves.

Barcelona have been the ultimate example of how good a pressing team can be but the first lesson to take from their example is the quality of players required to succeed that way. Forget their defenders, that's not how Barca defend. They recover the ball high and they are exceptionally good at retaining it once they have. That's because they have a critical mass of players who can receive a pass, even a bad one, in tight situations and do something positive with it. We don't.

Sure Barcelona are a team with technically excellent players all-round but you don't need that to play a pressing game successfully as the likes of Leverkusen and Atletico have shown.

[Hybrid Angel 2,130]

I think we can all agree Jose has been over-conservative in a lot of our big matches this season. If we manage to win the league,hopefully a lot of the pressure will be off his shoulders. I hope he will know exactly what to do in the summer transfer window to increase the team's flexibility in terms of playing different styles at different stages of the game.

Koke - Will allow us to keep the ball and also have an eye for goal when the team is ahead. Him being a very complete player gives us a huge advantage in these situations.

Varane - Cahill has been a disgrace this season and loses it when the slightest things go against him. Varane will be our present and our future alongside Zouma.

Kondogbia - We really can't expect Fabregas to be battling it out in midfield. If the team is under huge pressure and we need more defensive qualities on the pitch, Kondogbia is our answer. Positionally very good unlike Ramires and Mikel and attacking wise he good as well. Other option: Khedira.

Icardi/Dybala - I feel the need for another striker because Drogba doesn't seem to cut it anymore. Most of top teams have more than 1 world class strikere and although these two are not world class, they have a huge potential to be so. Also I really can't find a striker who is willing to sit on the bench.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

We have within our squad the ability to change the defence such that we are capable of playing a more proactive defensive game (as you say: Azpi, Zouma, Terry, Luis) but Jose hasn't suggested that he is interested in making these changes. If he did then we'd be lining up with more mobile defenders who are more compatible with a high-intensity pressing game but ultimately he has shown clear preference to the current defence even though it is very limiting in the big games especially, perhaps because it gives him an excuse to play the reactive football he craves.

Sure Barcelona are a team with technically excellent players all-round but you don't need that to play a pressing game successfully as the likes of Leverkusen and Atletico have shown.

Atleti are an excellent team, packed with outstanding players. Leverkausen have won what since 2002 and what in the ten years before that?

I suppose the word successfully can be defined in different ways. At Chelsea I think it defines winning trophies. It's up to Bayer fans and officials to decide what success means to them.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Some excellent points raised here - without bashing and insults - it's like the old TC

So I'm as frustrated as anybody with the team - we started the season playing expansive attacking football and sure there was a need to tighten defensively (5-3 Everton) - but it seems that we have tightened too much and the emphasis is massively skewed to defence instead of attack

Now - I am delighted we are consistently winning and believe the mental aspect of the game is growing within our team, plenty of results this year have gone for us, wheras previously we would have lost, or drew.

The fact that we assembled a great team on a modest budget, whilst complying with FFP is to be applauded, however it's clear to see our small stadium is REALLY punishing us compared to the teams around us in the EPL and massively restricting us in Europe. Therefore, until that is addressed it's unlikely we will be able to spend at the rate of UTD.

Our squad is much better now - this is the result of managerial stability (yes 2 seasons ) - it's given time to clear out the dead wood and try to shape a team for the future. I do expect at least 1-2 marquee signings in the summer.

However - it still concerns me that we had a blue-print for free flowing, attacking football and we effectively ripped it up - instead of tweaking it. But without a crystal ball we will never know.

Winning the EPL is all that counts and it doesn't matter whether it's the best league or not - we simply DO need to win it!

So despite my outbursts on the frustrations of Mou as a Manager and the under performance (IMHO) of the team - if we lift the EPL, I will be delighted and will consider the season a success. However, I would expect a big attacking improvement come August.

My final concern is that of the players - it's strange that Oscar a player developing nicely the past two seasons has stalled so much, is this a result of the negative tactics or is it vice-versa - the poor performances of not just Oscar, but other players as well - have forced Mourinho into the ultra conservative approach? I guess that's my million dollar question - to which I'm genuinely struggling to find an answer...

[The Chels 2,502]

Atleti are an excellent team, packed with outstanding players. Leverkausen have won what since 2002 and what in the ten years before that?

I suppose the word successfully can be defined in different ways. At Chelsea I think it defines winning trophies. It's up to Bayer fans and officials to decide what success means to them.

Atleti is a team packed with outstanding players but we aren't? I don't buy the excuse that a team needs everyone to be technically good à la Barcelona to play a pressing game. It's simply not true. If you watched the recent Atleti-Leverkusen games then you'll have noticed that both teams are excellent at pressing the opposition even though they are not so good at being pressed themselves (since they are not technically outstanding). You argue that because the likes of Willian, Oscar, Costa, Ramires, etc. wouldn't get in the Barca squad, that somehow justifies Jose's excessively passive and reactive big-game approach. I can't agree with that.

[Blue Colored Sky 1,807]

And even if by surprise, he's able to deliver such football, the moment it goes wrong or appears to not be going according to plan his natural instinct will kick in and he will revert to his comfort zone anyway. Either way, the sort of football people are demanding isn't going to happen under jose.

Didn't that happen once already ? After Sunderland game in League Cup in December 2013, Jose said that scrapping wins and winning by one goal in the easiest thing in football. Since then we've reverted to his shell and as you said 'comford zone' by playing very conserative with Ivanovic-Cahill-Terry-Azpilicueta back line almost every time with maximum protection. I think we played better and more expansive at the beginnig of this season but even then when big game arrived or away game then we reverted to usual self.

So even when we indeed are going to sign more of his players, players that suits his demands and style of play (which is not only neutralizing opponents, right ?), a trusted lieutenants but with more quality, then I'm not sure that he doesn't pull Sunderland speech all over again and revert to his unstrained land ...

I fully believe that he deserves time to form his team with majority of players that he pickes to be the ones AND THEN BE JUDGED but I simply can't get over that the more could be done now. He said about long term plans many times but currently it's short term solutions by him all over again.

[Blue Colored Sky 1,807]

I think Jose has done brilliant short-term work now - 2 trophies in 2 years is very good, regardless of quality of todays league. He deserves time to done the job on the long term and get final grades for that in the future seasons.

Anyone of you have read Carlo Ancelotti's biography ? He talks there about his first meeting with Abramovich in Paris (when he moved like a spy not to be spotted by anyone because he still had a contract with Milan - funny story). During his first meeting with the boss, Roman said to him "My team lacks identity. I see other teams like Barcelona with recognisable style and I don't see anything like that in my team. I want to have team with clear identity ... Can you deliver that to me ?" That's what Roman emphasised the most as Carlo said.

I just reminded myself about this and I think our boss isn't overly happy with current team. If he knows football as is said he knows and still has freak about clear identity then Jose hasn't delivered yet what Roman wants. I believe that Jose knows what our owner is expecting and after 2 years of short-term solutions he has to build long-term plan starting from next season. For example, the youths from the Academy have to start playing and not be numbers you can mess about, playing style without overly protection but with real pressing game.

We nullified Spurs by sacrifing Zouma to exclude Ericksen from the game, we put Azpilcueta on exterminate mission against Filipe in last year Champions League semi-final. We're not talking about nullifing Messi, Neymar or Robben/Ribery FFS but about teams against which we should be on top. We haven't yet imposed ourself against big side from the beginning and we're the big team.

We played some very good stuff against respectable team for example against Liverpool last year in December at home when we conceded early. We were on top for majority of the game, playing very good. The same happened again this season in the away fixture, until we conceded we were in our shell, after we conceded we imposed ourself, creating lots of chances. Against Spurs in autumn 2013 in an away game, we played carefully and shit in the first half eventually conceded a goal, then in the second we were absolutely brilliant, playing dominant football for majority of the game when our players had mind adjusted 'to score' not to 'not concede'. Against PSG last year in the away game, we conceded early but then for that 20-25 minutes spell we played some brilliant stuff because we really WANTED to score. And I don't think that's a coincidence. After we scored against PSG and LFC (both away games) and had positive result then we retreated again and had a hard time once more.

These examples just give me reasons to think that even with this side more could be done, for real. When we're not afraid to lose we can impose and be on top despite having Willians, Oscars etc. But we rarely have that mindset 'to score' against big teams, only looking to neutralize them.

But if Jose is saying that no, we can't impose ourself and Roman wants to have an identity in his side, then there is conflict of interests. Roman will help Jose with financial fundings and let's hope vice-versa will be done too.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

I think Jose has done brilliant short-term work now - 2 trophies in 2 years is very good, regardless of quality of todays league. He deserves time to done the job on the long term and get final grades for that in the future seasons.

Anyone of you have read Carlo Ancelotti's biography ? He talks there about his first meeting with Abramovich in Paris (when he moved like a spy not to be spotted by anyone because he still had a contract with Milan - funny story). During his first meeting with the boss, Roman said to him "My team lacks identity. I see other teams like Barcelona with recognisable style and I don't see anything like that in my team. I want to have team with clear identity ... Can you deliver that to me ?" That's what Roman emphasised the most as Carlo said.

I just reminded myself about this and I think our boss isn't overly happy with current team. If he knows football as is said he knows and still has freak about clear identity then Jose hasn't delivered yet what Roman wants. I believe that Jose knows what our owner is expecting and after 2 years of short-term solutions he has to build long-term plan starting from next season. For example, the youths from the Academy have to start playing and not be numbers you can mess about, playing style without overly protection but with real pressing game.

We nullified Spurs by sacrifing Zouma to exclude Ericksen from the game, we put Azpilcueta on exterminate mission against Filipe in last year Champions League semi-final. We're not talking about nullifing Messi, Neymar or Robben/Ribery FFS but about teams against which we should be on top. We haven't yet imposed ourself against big side from the beginning and we're the big team.

We played some very good stuff against respectable team for example against Liverpool last year in December at home when we conceded early. We were on top for majority of the game, playing very good. The same happened again this season in the away fixture, until we conceded we were in our shell, after we conceded we imposed ourself, creating lots of chances. Against Spurs in autumn 2013 in an away game, we played carefully and shit in the first half eventually conceded a goal, then in the second we were absolutely brilliant, playing dominant football for majority of the game when our players had mind adjusted 'to score' not to 'not concede'. Against PSG last year in the away game, we conceded early but then for that 20-25 minutes spell we played some brilliant stuff because we really WANTED to score. And I don't think that's a coincidence. After we scored against PSG and LFC (both away games) and had positive result then we retreated again and had a hard time once more.

These examples just give me reasons to think that even with this side more could be done, for real. When we're not afraid to lose we can impose and be on top despite having Willians, Oscars etc. But we rarely have that mindset 'to score' against big teams, only looking to neutralize them.

But if Jose is saying that no, we can't impose ourself and Roman wants to have an identity in his side, then there is conflict of interests. Roman will help Jose with financial fundings and let's hope vice-versa will be done too.

Mourinho said something like that after the PSG game. He said the players didn't know how to handle the pressure of being a man up and with the lead. When we don't need to get a goal, we suddenly react over cautiously.

That's why we need to win the league. After that we'll go into games having nothing to lose since we've won the big trophy already...

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

Atleti is a team packed with outstanding players but we aren't? I don't buy the excuse that a team needs everyone to be technically good à la Barcelona to play a pressing game. It's simply not true. If you watched the recent Atleti-Leverkusen games then you'll have noticed that both teams are excellent at pressing the opposition even though they are not so good at being pressed themselves (since they are not technically outstanding). You argue that because the likes of Willian, Oscar, Costa, Ramires, etc. wouldn't get in the Barca squad, that somehow justifies Jose's excessively passive and reactive big-game approach. I can't agree with that.

My argument is that if we played the high press game with our squad we'd concede possession far too often in dangerous situations and get countered to death. Pick the best back five on the planet, put them in that situation and they'd concede goals for fun. If we played that way we'd win as much as Leverkausen do.

Sides hoping to be successful playing that style need to be packed with players who are good at recovering and retaining possession. That requires a critical mass of players with high energy, great touch, poise in possession, tight close control, rapid speed of thought and accurate passing. I say a critical mass because it only takes one Ramires, Willian, Oscar, or Mikel to break the chain and we not only have those four, we also have more where they came from.

My point re Barca is that most of our starters wouldn't even get in their squad precisely because our lot don't have the qualities to play the Barca way. I know it's only my opinion but I simply do not believe you are right to think that our current squad can be successful playing the way you want us to. The inescapable conclusion is that you rate our players more highly than I do.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

My argument is that if we played the high press game with our squad we'd concede possession far too often in dangerous situations and get countered to death. Pick the best back five on the planet, put them in that situation and they'd concede goals for fun. If we played that way we'd win as much as Leverkausen do.

Sides hoping to be successful playing that style need to be packed with players who are good at recovering and retaining possession. That requires a critical mass of players with high energy, great touch, poise in possession, tight close control, rapid speed of thought and accurate passing. I say a critical mass because it only takes one Ramires, Willian, Oscar, or Mikel to break the chain and we not only have those four, we also have more where they came from.

My point re Barca is that most of our starters wouldn't even get in their squad precisely because our lot don't have the qualities to play the Barca way. I know it's only my opinion but I simply do not believe you are right to think that our current squad can be successful playing the way you want us to. The inescapable conclusion is that you rate our players more highly than I do.

I agree. I think we are looking to play with more style, like we did pre Jan 1. I think this is not only due to our slow back line but because our squad is too thin in most areas to allow us to rest, say, Cesc for a week (2 matches) eg after crimbo or Matic, because either the replacements are too poor or non existent ( Mikel for Matic, Ramires for Cesc)

Which is why Jose will need to make some changes. I think next season will be his defining one, whether he presses ahead and plays more tiki taka football or decides to buy players who can do ugly footy. But I think that if ugly football was his goal he would have passed on Cesc and kept Lamps for an extra year.

[The Chels 2,502]

My argument is that if we played the high press game with our squad we'd concede possession far too often in dangerous situations and get countered to death. Pick the best back five on the planet, put them in that situation and they'd concede goals for fun. If we played that way we'd win as much as Leverkausen do.

Sides hoping to be successful playing that style need to be packed with players who are good at recovering and retaining possession. That requires a critical mass of players with high energy, great touch, poise in possession, tight close control, rapid speed of thought and accurate passing. I say a critical mass because it only takes one Ramires, Willian, Oscar, or Mikel to break the chain and we not only have those four, we also have more where they came from.

My point re Barca is that most of our starters wouldn't even get in their squad precisely because our lot don't have the qualities to play the Barca way. I know it's only my opinion but I simply do not believe you are right to think that our current squad can be successful playing the way you want us to. The inescapable conclusion is that you rate our players more highly than I do.

I personally believe that the current big-game system of trying to start counter attacks from deep within our own half highlights the weaknesses of said players more than a pressing system would do. The current tactics require us to make a string of correct decisions and accurate passes which is perhaps why our counter attacks have looked so poor. In addition to Hazard and Costa I feel like our more limited players (e.g. Ramires, Willian) would thrive on a system which encourages mobility, athleticism and making fewer correct decisions with the ball (by winning the ball higher up the pitch). You could argue we would be made more defensively vulnerable with the higher line that would be required but it's not as though the current system is working particularly well in making us defensively solid. We have been penned back (willingly or otherwise) into our own half so many times against big teams this season and we usually end up conceding or with the GK making a save. Change the defence to Azpi-Zouma-Terry-Luis and it means the whole team is more suited to a pressing game IMO.

What Jose did in many Real Madrid games (particularly against Barca) was to press high for the first 20 or so minutes and then sit back more afterwards. Atletico also use a variation of this and it would be nice to see it here. Why we do we have to be passive and deep for the entire 90 minutes when we could play more aggressively and proactively, at least for periods of the game? I get the impression that the 'sit deep & wait for a mistake' kind of tactics we've been seeing is what Jose ultimately prefers. If we'd fucked up so many times after taking the lead by playing aggressively and with a higher line would Jose have changed something? Absolutely. Has he done the reverse? Nope which suggests we're already using his default preference regardless of personnel.

Clearly you think that our more limited players would be hindered by a pressing system but I actually think the opposite (assuming the defence were changed) in that their limitations would be masked more. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Blue Colored Sky 1,807]

My argument is that if we played the high press game with our squad we'd concede possession far too often in dangerous situations and get countered to death. Pick the best back five on the planet, put them in that situation and they'd concede goals for fun. If we played that way we'd win as much as Leverkausen do.

Sides hoping to be successful playing that style need to be packed with players who are good at recovering and retaining possession. That requires a critical mass of players with high energy, great touch, poise in possession, tight close control, rapid speed of thought and accurate passing. I say a critical mass because it only takes one Ramires, Willian, Oscar, or Mikel to break the chain and we not only have those four, we also have more where they came from.

My point re Barca is that most of our starters wouldn't even get in their squad precisely because our lot don't have the qualities to play the Barca way. I know it's only my opinion but I simply do not believe you are right to think that our current squad can be successful playing the way you want us to. The inescapable conclusion is that you rate our players more highly than I do.

Blimey ! Leverkusen can spend 10m€ on Son and call it a "big transfer". They have worse chance of winning anything because of their financial limits not style of play ...

I read here that we're a team on a budget While a player like Hazard only came here because we offered him and his agent the most money. Same with Diego Costa, agent got a hefty cheque to bring him here. We spend the most money in the Premier League on agents in the last couple of seasons ... But ok.

We have enough quality and variety to play better and be more on the front foot. But Jose simply isn't creative enough. The only creative thing that he's done so far is converting Azpilicueta to LB. Oh, yeah, there's also switch Zouma and David Luiz to play DM-destroyer position. Of course it's only defensive changes. Going forward, he rather dispose someone who isn't perfect enough than fit him and change his position.

One example is Juan Mata. He changed his position last season to play RW resulting in that Mata had fewer goals in the league than John Obi Mikel ... Didn't record single assisst, despite having 35 of those season before.

That's him basically. He uses ready models and try to improve them, if they're talented enough and fits the mould enough then they can become a real, real special under his guidance.

He has to get there in the market and buy his disciples who are of high quality as well.

That's why I hope he find his 'Maicon' who falls into his type of full-back category so is tall, fast, powerful and fantastic in both ends of the pitch, because experiment of turning Ivanovic into Maicon is failing.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

Clearly you think that our more limited players would be hindered by a pressing system but I actually think the opposite (assuming the defence were changed) in that their limitations would be masked more. We'll have to agree to disagree.

This seems to me to be a reasonable enough point. I've enjoyed reading your posts even though I generally disagree with your conclusions on this topic. The next bit of evidence will come next season when, fingers crossed, the squad will have been strengthened. If that is so and the football does not improve then you might well claim that would give more weight to your case.

I'm desperate for two or three clear upgrades over the summer, which I expect will enable us to play better football more consistently. I'm not anticipating seeing the finished article next term, but I am hopeful that we'll be closer to it than we are now. I'm also desperate that Jose will be the man continuing to lead the development. Next September will mark my 50th anniversary as a Chelsea fan. In all that time Jose is the only manager I've believed in. I'm a tough crowd.

[Joker10 946]

I'll take the PL in any state over the CL. The best judgement for a team is ALWAYS the league. The best team in it winning the CL is the exception, while the best team in the league almost always wins it.

I don't follow your argument. I simply just read this sentence like 100 times, i still don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

We had an absolute unbalanced mess off a squad when Mou returned, no top class CM, no top class striker, Terry looking like he was past it, attacking midfield we had Mata who was great but since has been proved he isn't top top bracket, Hazard who is but was really young infact bar Cech we had not one top bracket player anywhere near the prime, infact the more I look back at that squad the more I think Rafa performed a minor miracle getting us 3rd and EL.

Jose with a £36m net spend has turned that unbalanced mess (£9m per transfer window for perspective) into genuine title contenders, the fact that there is a general reluctance to credit him for that is quite frankly mind blowing.

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talented players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

[Amblève. 4,995]

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spend a lot of money and he also soled a lot of talent players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

Thank you. At least one person on this forum is able to read properly what I said.

Mou shouldn't get any credit for us having a balanced budget. He was lucky as I already said that there were quality players and huge talents in the squad already when he took over. It was the front office that was able to get a good financial return for players like Mata etc, not Mourinho. However, demanding players that fit his playing style now that's on Mourinho. The amount we paid for said players relative to their output on the pitch is ridiculous.

[Rom2013 446]

I don't follow your argument. I simply read this sentence like 100 times, i don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talent players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

The League normally is won by the best team (or one of the best teams if they are similar) the CHampions League it's not as simple as that, for example in the past 11 seasons we have 4 underdogs winning the competition:

Porto 2004

Liverpool 2005

Inter 2010

Chelsea 2012

And that happens because it's a cup like the FA Cup or any other cup. For example Portsmouth and Wigan also won the FA Cup but they wouldn't do it in the League in a million attempts.

The Champions League is more important than the League, it's more unpredictable, there are always 8 great teams fighting for it, it's a cup and it's not the best way to measure the value of a team. Rea Madrid was horrible in some of their Champions League wins being 6th like Chelsea was in 2012.

About the money spent we have 2 problems. The first one was that Chelsea had a structural deficit of something like 50M£ (I don't know if this is the number but it's something like this, for example in 2013 we had a deficit between 35M£ and 50M£) and we had to sell, we had no other option.

You can say if this player is a Mourinho player, or the other one is not... or what you want... even if Mourinho was in love with his 25 players in 2013 we would need to sell 4, 5 or 6 really good players to pass the new FFP rules.

The other problem is that it's not the same to sell 200M£ in players and buy another 200M£, or just buy 200M£... I think that's obvious.

If United sells Di Maria for 50M£ and buy Bale for 60M£ maybe they will improve their team, if they have Di Maria and Bale they will have an incredible team.

In the last 2 seasons United spent 237M£ in players and sold 45M£ for a net spending of 192M£.

In the last 2 seasons City spent 190M£ in players and sold 30M£ in players for a net spending of 160M£.

In the last 2 seasons Arsenal spent 150M£ in players and sold 30M£ in players for a net spending of 120M£

In the last 2 seasons Chelsea spent 235M£ in players and sold 200M£ in players for a net spending of 35M£.

The numbers are clear. And if United continue spending like this there is no way we can compete with them in the future. We were clearly the team that spent less money and the team with the best evolution in the past 2 seasons.

And yes the team was horrible in every aspect when Mourinho started his job.