The Mourinho Thread

[robsblubot 3,257]

Barbara, my point doesn't extend to just recent games where we haven't been on fire. It's in regards to pretty much what we've been doing the whole season. I have no idea where you're getting this notion that because we're not on fire, we should throw in the kids. I'm not saying that at all. That would be stupid.

What I am saying is in competitions like the COC, or like that dead rubber game against Sporting that meant nothing at all, we should be looking to integrate our young talents more than we have - so they can start buying into the team and Mourinho's philosophy, ethics and culture - so that they show everyone in the academy that there is a pathway from the academy to the first team. Like I said before, a lot of people don't have a problem with this facet of Mourinho's management, and Jose himself doesn't seem to put it as one of his priorities either - and that's my only real problem with him and others. I'm not questioning other facets of his management. You don't need to bring that to the table. I'm not attacking Mourinho as a manager.

Agreed. I, for one, never associated Jose Mourinho with developing players - quite on the contrary.

The big question, for me, would be whether developing youngsters is part of his requirements as a manager - did Abramovich actually tell him to work on that as well?

The starting line up against Derby was nothing short of ridiculous... Not even fringe players managed to get a start...

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

We don't need to be smashing teams or winning comfortably to introduce these youngsters who are extremely talented in two or three games IMO but each to their own.

There is a risk involved and this isn't the season for it. You were suggesting we could still do just as well with young, inexperienced players so long as they are insulated with a strong team, well with our strongest XI we are exactly smashing these lesser teams so to suggest that the addition of inexperienced youth wouldn't be a risk is a bit of an oversight on your part.

[didierforever 7,349]

Ake and Zouma aren't academy players atm. They're both members of the first team squad. I'm talking about the likes of RLC, Boga, Christensen, Solanke etc.

If that's the best example you can come up with then you're not getting my point at all.

then tell me whats the point of having a SQUAD??? i think i asked you this question before?

ake and zouma ARE young players who need to be developed and integrated into the squad. just cos they are first teamers, it does not mean they should not be counted as those. also, will you give the same argument for boga and baker, since they too are first teamers.

also, let me get this straight, you want ake, zouma as well as RLC, boga, solanke to start? well thats nothing like arsenal, is it? you yourself have said surrounding 1-2 young players in the team with other 9 experienced players and that is what jose has done.

[The Skipper 20,593]

then tell me whats the point of having a SQUAD??? i think i asked you this question before?

ake and zouma ARE young players who need to be developed and integrated into the squad. just cos they are first teamers, it does not mean they should not be counted as those. also, will you give the same argument for boga and baker, since they too are first teamers.

also, let me get this straight, you want ake, zouma as well as RLC, boga, solanke to start? well thats nothing like arsenal, is it? you yourself have said surrounding 1-2 young players in the team with other 9 experienced players and that is what jose has done.

You're not following the discussion well at all are you? If you were you would've seen a sample side I gave earlier in the thread... It included just Boga and RLC. The rest were senior players (including Zouma)...

[The Skipper 20,593]

There is a risk involved and this isn't the season for it. You were suggesting we could still do just as well with young, inexperienced players so long as they are insulated with a strong team, well with our strongest XI we are exactly smashing these lesser teams so to suggest that the addition of inexperienced youth wouldn't be a risk is a bit of an oversight on your part.

I never said it wouldn't be a risk, in fact I actually mentioned at the start that it is a risk, but then again that's what comes with the package. The best thing you can do is try to reduce that risk by surrounding these players with as much experience as you can - and the XI I put up earlier reflected that perfectly.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I never said it wouldn't be a risk, in fact I actually mentioned at the start that it is a risk, but then again that's what comes with the package. The best thing you can do is try to reduce that risk by surrounding these players with as much experience as you can - and the XI I put up earlier reflected that perfectly.

I don't think this is the season to risk things, we have a solid squad and in time(after we win a few trophies that reflect the investment made) we can start looking to bringing in academy kids. Its a slow process for a team looking to win major honours.

[didierforever 7,349]

You're not following the discussion well at all are you? If you were you would've seen a sample side I gave earlier in the thread... It included just Boga and RLC. The rest were senior players (including Zouma)...

i have and AGAIN, i want to ask a simple question. why have a squad then? what use are schurrle and salah? what use is mikel and rambo? the derby match was a one off. if we had a match on saturday instead of monday night, i am sure jose would have changed the whole side and played the squad players.

like he did

against bolton

• Cech Filipe Luis Cahill Azpilicueta Zouma Mike Oscar Schürrle Salah Aké Remy
• against shrewsbury
• Cech Christensen Zouma Cahill Filipe Luis Mikel Aké Salah Oscar Schürrle Drogba

Cech

Azpi - Zouma - JT - Luis

Matic - RLC

Fabregas

Boga - Drogba - Hazard

also i dont see much difference in your team and the ones jose put forth. RLC has been replaced by ake who is definitely way forward in his development and should be the one playing for the first team. but putting boga ahead while having schurrle and salah on the bench, and this competition being there main oppurtunity to show their worth to jose, is unfair to them

[the wes 7,212]

Mourinho revealed to talkSPORT that he’s happy with the state of what he calls a very good squad.

“We have a short squad but we’ve got good players, some younger, some older, but the squad is very, very good,” he said.

[BleedsBlue 1,549]

The reason why other top clubs have got a few of their academy players in the first team is mainly because injury situations or club objectives have forced the club to DEPEND on their youngsters.

Its like the situation when Remy and Costa were injured and we were able to give Solanke a debut. Fortunately this season we've had the luxury of having a very complete squad. Versatility and experience has made it possible for us to cope with injuries and suspensions.

Unless we have a major injury crisis,I highly doubt that our youngsters will get a squad role this season.

[LAB 1,030]

i have and AGAIN, i want to ask a simple question. why have a squad then? what use are schurrle and salah? what use is mikel and rambo? the derby match was a one off. if we had a match on saturday instead of monday night, i am sure jose would have changed the whole side and played the squad players.

like he did

against bolton

• Cech Filipe Luis Cahill Azpilicueta Zouma Mike Oscar Schürrle Salah Aké Remy
• against shrewsbury
• Cech Christensen Zouma Cahill Filipe Luis Mikel Aké Salah Oscar Schürrle Drogba

Cech

Azpi - Zouma - JT - Luis

Matic - RLC

Fabregas

Boga - Drogba - Hazard

also i dont see much difference in your team and the ones jose put forth. RLC has been replaced by ake who is definitely way forward in his development and should be the one playing for the first team. but putting boga ahead while having schurrle and salah on the bench, and this competition being there main oppurtunity to show their worth to jose, is unfair to them

Tbf, i think that this proposed starting XI could have easily made it vs Derby. No risk whatsoever to play RLC in place of Mikel and Boga in place of Schurrle imo. Once you get that out of the question, it's a matter of what are players like Schurrle, Mikel, Salah (the list goes on) to us as you say. Squad players are there to provide alternatives. Days will eventually come in important competitions (PL, CL), when starters will be injured or suspended or out of form or not in the manager's tactical plans. Jose won't play the likes of Boga and RLC in those situations of course. I hope you get my point. Matches like Sporting (we were top of the group no matter the result ffs) or Derby are ideal for youth integration. No one said anything about PL or CL fixures where things are really very very serious and important.

[Tomo 21,685]

So you honestly think playing RLC or Boga would severely damage our likelihood of winning against a team like Derby? Incredible.

You're telling me that Boga definitely can't put in a better performance than the one Schurrle gave us yesterday? Incredible yet again.

Well here's where the discussion ends then. You clearly think that someone like Boga or RLC aren't anywhere near quality enough to even contribute to the team in any sort of game we'll play this season, whilst I think that is absolute rubbish and that they are definitely more than talented enough to do exactly that. Each to their own though I guess. We'll agree to disagree.

PS - I have never really counted Zouma as a youngster. He was bought for £12m.

A price tag doesn't take away the raw inconsistency off a youngster.

Despite them costing Jose deserves credit for integrating Mikel and Varane when they were teenagers, after all, how many times did we see Lukaku under AVB?

[Tomo 21,685]

Yeah,but loaning out a player is not the greatest way to develop one player.

Firstly,the loaned out player has a complete new environment,which means he needs time to adapt to that new feeling.

Secondly,the club,which loaned out the player,does not have to play him.This club could have loaned him out for the "worst case scenario",which is that all other squad members are injured,so just give the loanee a chance.

Thirdly,language can also be an issue because Kalas for example can´t speak the german language,so for him it is difficult to get some minutes.It is crucial that the centre backs can understand each other during the match,so communication during the match is very important.Otherwise,they will concede stupid goals.

The loan system separates the men from the boys.

Fergie was widely praised for sticking Welbeck and Cleverly in the side in 2011, but what people tend to forget is that they got their chance due to impressive loan spells in the PL. Simarly Sturridge got a chance under AVB due to impressive displays at Bolton, even Wilshere had to go down the loan route to break into Arsenal's side, as will 95 percent of youngster's.

Youngsters are well aware of the task off breaking into our first team because despite our underwhelming youth record player's from home and abroad keep on putting pen to paper, they know what they are signing up for.

[Barbara 15,149]

Yes. Zouma's integration has been handled brilliantly. But note he's the 3rd choice CB. In the same way, i think it's possible to have a couple of other players, like Boga for example in Salah's place.

oh that makes a lot of sense because Salah has been playing a lot, right?

It seems like you guys don't even make sense of what you want.

And seriously, Boga? BOGA? I'm done with this conversation.

Barbara, my point doesn't extend to just recent games where we haven't been on fire. It's in regards to pretty much what we've been doing the whole season. I have no idea where you're getting this notion that because we're not on fire, we should throw in the kids. I'm not saying that at all. That would be stupid.

What I am saying is in competitions like the COC, or like that dead rubber game against Sporting that meant nothing at all, we should be looking to integrate our young talents more than we have - so they can start buying into the team and Mourinho's philosophy, ethics and culture - so that they show everyone in the academy that there is a pathway from the academy to the first team. Like I said before, a lot of people don't have a problem with this facet of Mourinho's management, and Jose himself doesn't seem to put it as one of his priorities either - and that's my only real problem with him and others. I'm not questioning other facets of his management. You don't need to bring that to the table. I'm not attacking Mourinho as a manager.

You say you aren't saying that directly - and I know you aren't, after all, you're smart.

But indirectly is what you wanted to happen. In a match where the players that have been playing needed a convincing win and therefore had to play for their own progress you wanted one of the kids to play against Sporting. I agree that the Derby match wouldn't be a bad idea, but then what? Let's say if RLC played half time, I think it would have been okay. But how is that integrating youth? When would he play again for us? That's gifting him a match to look pretty for fans like you - that advocate youth players to 'receive chances in COC matches' but it would contribute 0 with his development because we don't know when he's going to play again.

I never meant you were attacking him, I just thought the van Gaal comparison was (still is) unnecessary. Different people, different managing style. You're the one that mentioned LvG more than once (although it wasn't you who mentioned him first).

Also, come on, seriously, your argument that Zouma isn't a youngster because of his fee. I'm surprised and something else, that's the kind of argument I expect from a lot of people on this forum, not you. He's 19, he's not even close the end product, he has a lot of areas to grow and develop. You can say whatever you want, he's a youngster who could play for our U21 team if Mourinho didn't see him fit. Or he could be treated like Kalas was last year (although he had an injury)... Iva could be played ahead of him if Mourinho didn't think he was ready. Damn, even Aké - who's older - could have been played there if Mourinho didn't see fit, he does. But as he didn't come from the frigging Chelsea academy, it doesn't matter that Mourinho is giving chances for a 19yo.

As I said to Strike, I'm done with this subject. Yesterday I agree the level of the discussion was good, despite my disagreement. Now the arguments are getting stupid. Sorry.

we have not?

bolton - ake, zouma

shrewsbury - ake, zouma, chirstensen

derby - zouma.

jose has done EXACTLY that thing.

It doesn't count, mate. Among other things because Zouma isn't a Chelsea academy product. He's not even a youngster anymore, despite being 19 and having plenty of room of development, being even raw in some aspects of his game. But, hey, he has a 12m pounds fee. That's what decides the age and development of a player around here, it seems.

I'm so sorry, but that argument was one of the most stupid I've ever read here and I'm disappointed by it.

Agreed. I, for one, never associated Jose Mourinho with developing players - quite on the contrary.

The big question, for me, would be whether developing youngsters is part of his requirements as a manager - did Abramovich actually tell him to work on that as well?

The starting line up against Derby was nothing short of ridiculous... Not even fringe players managed to get a start...

wow... I'm definitely out of here.

[Muzchap 8,966]

oh that makes a lot of sense because Salah has been playing a lot, right?

It seems like you guys don't even make sense of what you want.

And seriously, Boga? BOGA? I'm done with this conversation.

You say you aren't saying that directly - and I know you aren't, after all, you're smart.

But indirectly is what you wanted to happen. In a match where the players that have been playing needed a convincing win and therefore had to play for their own progress you wanted one of the kids to play against Sporting. I agree that the Derby match wouldn't be a bad idea, but then what? Let's say if RLC played half time, I think it would have been okay. But how is that integrating youth? When would he play again for us? That's gifting him a match to look pretty for fans like you - that advocate youth players to 'receive chances in COC matches' but it would contribute 0 with his development because we don't know when he's going to play again.

I never meant you were attacking him, I just thought the van Gaal comparison was (still is) unnecessary. Different people, different managing style. You're the one that mentioned LvG more than once (although it wasn't you who mentioned him first).

Also, come on, seriously, your argument that Zouma isn't a youngster because of his fee. I'm surprised and something else, that's the kind of argument I expect from a lot of people on this forum, not you. He's 19, he's not even close the end product, he has a lot of areas to grow and develop. You can say whatever you want, he's a youngster who could play for our U21 team if Mourinho didn't see him fit. Or he could be treated like Kalas was last year (although he had an injury)... Iva could be played ahead of him if Mourinho didn't think he was ready. Damn, even Aké - who's older - could have been played there if Mourinho didn't see fit, he does. But as he didn't come from the frigging Chelsea academy, it doesn't matter that Mourinho is giving chances for a 19yo.

As I said to Strike, I'm done with this subject. Yesterday I agree the level of the discussion was good, despite my disagreement. Now the arguments are getting stupid. Sorry.

It doesn't count, mate. Among other things because Zouma isn't a Chelsea academy product. He's not even a youngster anymore, despite being 19 and having plenty of room of development, being even raw in some aspects of his game. But, hey, he has a 12m pounds fee. That's what decides the age and development of a player around here, it seems.

I'm so sorry, but that argument was one of the most stupid I've ever read here and I'm disappointed by it.

wow... I'm definitely out of here.

Hold the door for me

I just don't get this obsession - we are having the best season in a long while and yet we're still not happy?

Just what does it take for some people to be fucking cheerful. It's Xmas too, unbelievable.

Not 1 Chelsea fan has disagreed that we would love the youngsters to play, but we know it needs to happen when the time is right. The argument is that it's not happening quick enough?

I'm pretty sure chemistry, balance of the team, predictability etc has all been mentioned - so have nothing left to offer.

I hope Santa brings you all some Christmas cheer

[The Skipper 20,593]

oh that makes a lot of sense because Salah has been playing a lot, right? It seems like you guys don't even make sense of what you want. And seriously, Boga? BOGA? I'm done with this conversation.

I actually agree with Strike there. I do think Salah's role in the squad could be given to someone like Boga and would be more beneficial for us in the long term as well. Boga is more naturally talented in my books. Yeah, Salah hasn't had plentiful of game time, but I would rather have Boga have those minutes tbh. Didn't even want us to sign Mo to begin with.

You say you aren't saying that directly - and I know you aren't, after all, you're smart. But indirectly is what you wanted to happen. In a match where the players that have been playing needed a convincing win and therefore had to play for their own progress you wanted one of the kids to play against Sporting. I agree that the Derby match wouldn't be a bad idea, but then what? Let's say if RLC played half time, I think it would have been okay. But how is that integrating youth? When would he play again for us? That's gifting him a match to look pretty for fans like you - that advocate youth players to 'receive chances in COC matches' but it would contribute 0 with his development because we don't know when he's going to play again. I never meant you were attacking him, I just thought the van Gaal comparison was (still is) unnecessary. Different people, different managing style. You're the one that mentioned LvG more than once (although it wasn't you who mentioned him first).

Of course it's not as naive as thinking that everyone will be satisfied with just that. As long as there is evidence of a clear pathway being constructed from the academy to the first team, I would be happy. It would start by playing them in games we can afford to play them in, surrounding them with senior stars, and seeing who actually has the ability to stick around the first team and contribute from then onwards.

Also, come on, seriously, your argument that Zouma isn't a youngster because of his fee. I'm surprised and something else, that's the kind of argument I expect from a lot of people on this forum, not you. He's 19, he's not even close the end product, he has a lot of areas to grow and develop. You can say whatever you want, he's a youngster who could play for our U21 team if Mourinho didn't see him fit. Or he could be treated like Kalas was last year (although he had an injury)... Iva could be played ahead of him if Mourinho didn't think he was ready. Damn, even Aké - who's older - could have been played there if Mourinho didn't see fit, he does. But as he didn't come from the frigging Chelsea academy, it doesn't matter that Mourinho is giving chances for a 19yo. As I said to Strike, I'm done with this subject. Yesterday I agree the level of the discussion was good, despite my disagreement. Now the arguments are getting stupid. Sorry.

What I meant to say is that Zouma shouldn't be treated as an academy product. Aké is just about an academy product for me but it wasn't Jose that gave him his first break here. I consider Nathan and Zouma as squad players already - sure they need the further development and stuff but they were already pretty much part of the first team - Nathan when Mourinho came here, Zouma because he was bought for the squad - even though he is a young player, that was clear for me from the start. Kurt wasn't bought for the academy or the reserves.

I agree with you though, the discussion does seem to be getting a bit tedious now. I won't really change my mind on the lack of youth integration so far this season and I know some others won't change their opinions either, but both sides in my opinion have valid arguments.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Hold the door for me

I just don't get this obsession - we are having the best season in a long while and yet we're still not happy?

Just what does it take for some people to be fucking cheerful. It's Xmas too, unbelievable.

Who said that because I have a problem with the youth integration that I'm not happy? As I said earlier, I'm very happy with a lot of things Mourinho has done this season, the only thing I think he could improve on is the youth integration. Just because I think that's what he can improve on doesn't mean I'm unhappy about things in general. I'm very happy with how this season has gone.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

What's topic we're discussing today? I'm so excited

Ah, still the same topic as 2 days ago...

[stroey 2,525]

Managing a club is like managing a business: you set major goals and after that you have secondary, tertiary goals etc.
For the club, winning trophies are major goals and we should complete as many sub targets as possible to support that. Integrating/giving minutes to youth players belongs to secondary/tertiary goals and should only be completed when the situation allows it.

We need to win trophies because we are a big club, and Mou needs to win trophies to remain at Chelsea (we all know Abramovic), losing Mourinho would derail the whole project and we would have to start all over again which is bad for the stability of the club.

At the start of the season the squad was formed (including some youngsters), and for that reason the squad players are above the U21 players unless you've situations like KDB (pushing to leave in Jan). Keeping the squad happy and (match) fit is one of the most important and difficult sub-targets you should accomplish to support your major goal: winning trophies.

Mou used the Sporting game to complete sub-targets to support his main goal: winning trophies:

- Giving Diego a game instead of Solanke, because Diego was desperately looking to score again.
- Giving time to Salah, Ramires Mikel and Schurrle to let them be as fit as possible because we will need them in the busy Christmas-January period.
- Mou gave RLC his debut because the situation allowed it, we could rest key players (Wil, Hazard, Courtois, JT) by playing him and give the kid a fantastic experience.
(and probably promote the club a little bit)

For the Derby game, Mou again looked at the situation:

Would it be more profitable for the season and the major goal (winning trophies) to give Boga, Baker, RLC game time who won't contribute to the rest of the season, or give game time to important squad players to prepare them for the busy Christmas-January Period? Easy decision.

For the major goal (winning trophies): We needed to play a strong side against Derby, as that has the biggest chance of going through the next round. And after this we should complete some sub targets which supports this major goal in the long term.

sub targets:
- Ramires needed match fitness for the coming period, so Mou played him in the final part of the game instead of randomly playing a youth player.
- Schurrle was back from illness and we need him in top top condition for the Christmas period, so that's why he played instead of a youth player.
- Playing Mikel with Matic in the pivot and Cesc at 10, to create understanding for the rest of the season, and test this set up as Mou will probably play something like this in big games.
- Resting key players. (Iva, Oscar, Cahill)

Besides this, Mou actually has already integrated two young players in the squad this season: Ake and Zouma, both played more than Salah. So I'm more than fine with that. Christensen, Solanke and RLC also made their debuts. You can't just play youth players just to play them, the situation has to allow it and it has to be profitable for your major goals during the season.