Kai Havertz

[LAM09 6,557]

14 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Yeah there is no magic needed to play better, but more work, a better manager, and better attitude -- Kai used to play a lot better himself!

Strikers miss a lot of chances (1 in 3 is not uncommon), now if you are going to pick from the handful in-form strikers of the month, then yes they would likely score from these half chances we've been producing against weak opposition. I don't think Kai missed any sitter tbf and the assist from mount (which was the best chance today) was slightly deflected by the defender.

however, my original point wasn't Kai vs a [better striker], but Kai vs a 20yo who has shown little more than impetus and physicality in the few minutes he played.

I have no idea why you keep mentioning someone's age; it's nothing more than a number. Most youngsters that become household names have to start somewhere, so there isn't a better place when the ONLY option ahead of him is not only dire, but he walks around without an ounce of energy. 

Bayern can't take him soon enough.

[robsblubot 3,251]

5 hours ago, LAM09 said:

I have no idea why you keep mentioning someone's age; it's nothing more than a number. Most youngsters that become household names have to start somewhere, so there isn't a better place when the ONLY option ahead of him is not only dire, but he walks around without an ounce of energy. 

Bayern can't take him soon enough.

hmm I thought that point was pretty obvious and non-controversial tbh. A Haaland is an extremely rare thing for a reason. 🤷‍♂️ Speaking of which, absolutely dreadful game against Spurs today -- City won't win the PL because of Halland even if they will likely win more in the future also because of him.

As an older guy I can absolutely tell you that age is not just a number. 😅 Science pretty much tells us it's not a number. First thing a doctor wants to know is someone's age, then sex (gender is largely irrelevant). That's science. I played amateur level football in Brazil (semi-organized) and spoke with plenty of professional players, even the way you play changes from your early to late 20s . It's not just a number in either end of the spectrum. VERY FEW players can stretch the limits but it's extremely rare (for every Thiago Silva...).

Now, to the established pattern: very young teams, filled with young players (esp 20yo) have never won shit... esp at this level. The so called "transition" periods are called that because they never include silverware, but they usually include lots of young unproven players (aka bets).

Median age of a squad IS very much so a thing that clubs think about when they plan and sign players. They also know what the likelihood of a 20yo, who is not a genius, delivering the goods this early is. For this reason, younger players are given time without much pressure. Would I like if Fofana were a young R9 who scored goals at 19yo? sure! Do I think he's one? nope.

Honestly, this is not opinion, but rather what I know how teams go about building a squad. Would really take some new information for me to think that that has changed - IMO I think it has shifted towards older players given better fitness levels. So, perhaps agree to disagree.

Edited February 5, 2023 by robsblubot

[LAM09 6,557]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

hmm I thought that point was pretty obvious and non-controversial tbh. A Haaland is an extremely rare thing for a reason. 🤷‍♂️ Speaking of which, absolutely dreadful game against Spurs today -- City won't win the PL because of Halland even if they will likely win more in the future also because of him.

As an older guy I can absolutely tell you that age is not just a number. 😅 Science pretty much tells us it's not a number. First thing a doctor wants to know is someone's age, then sex (gender is largely irrelevant). That's science. I played amateur level football in Brazil (semi-organized) and spoke with plenty of professional players, even the way you play changes from your early to late 20s . It's not just a number in either end of the spectrum. VERY FEW players can stretch the limits but it's extremely rare (for every Thiago Silva...).

Now, to the established pattern: very young teams, filled with young players (esp 20yo) have never won shit... esp at this level. The so called "transition" periods are called that because they never include silverware, but they usually include lots of young unproven players (aka bets).

Median age of a squad IS very much so a thing that clubs think about when they plan and sign players. They also know what the likelihood of a 20yo, who is not a genius, delivering the goods this early is. For this reason, younger players are given time without much pressure. Would I like if Fofana were a young R9 who scored goals at 19yo? sure! Do I think he's one? nope.

Honestly, this is not opinion, but rather what I know how teams go about building a squad. Would really take some new information for me to think that that has changed - IMO I think it has shifted towards older players given better fitness levels. So, perhaps agree to disagree.

Talk about going on a tangent.

I'll hope for new blood up front and you can enjoy the wonder that is Havertz.

Edited February 5, 2023 by LAM09

[Thor 2,160]

I like Kai in the 10 role, just not upfront. 

He, unlike just about anyone else, gets in between the lines of the other team. Gallagher and Mount are shocking at this. I'd love to see him get a shot at the position, with Fofana upfront. 

Mount can sit. 

 

[robsblubot 3,251]

On 04/02/2023 at 18:06, robsblubot said:

Yeah there is no magic needed to play better, but more work, a better manager, and better attitude -- Kai used to play a lot better himself!

Strikers miss a lot of chances (1 in 3 is not uncommon), now if you are going to pick from the handful in-form strikers of the month, then yes they would likely score from these half chances we've been producing against weak opposition. I don't think Kai missed any sitter tbf and the assist from mount (which was the best chance today) was slightly deflected by the defender.

however, my original point wasn't Kai vs a [better striker], but Kai vs a 20yo who has shown little more than impetus and physicality in the few minutes he played.

We agree that AT THIS MOMENT Kai is NOT playing well, but my point was ☝️

16 hours ago, LAM09 said:

I have no idea why you keep mentioning someone's age; it's nothing more than a number. Most youngsters that become household names have to start somewhere, so there isn't a better place when the ONLY option ahead of him is not only dire, but he walks around without an ounce of energy. 

Bayern can't take him soon enough.

☝️

9 hours ago, LAM09 said:

Talk about going on a tangent.

I'll hope for new blood up front and you can enjoy the wonder that is Havertz.

Dude! So, basically, WTF?! You literally wrote above that "[age] was nothing but a number," which I addressed... perhaps I shouldn't have? So, basically, it was your tangent! 😅Again, it's not my fault the club spent everywhere but in the striker/FW position. Perhaps they don't see anyone worth investing at this time? 🤷‍♂️

I agree that Kai has been poor and I'm not sure he's going to make it at this level... few truly do. I am SURE Kai is a good player, but good isn't always good enough at this level. Wanna bet he'd tear it elsewhere?

@Thor I'm not sure the modern game can fit a player with Kai's characteristics in any position other than striker/FW. He's just too slow and his work rate not high enough to do the job anywhere else I'm afraid. Perhaps as a second FW, but we don't play like that today. TBH, I think his work rate needs to improve period -- regardless of position.

Edited February 6, 2023 by robsblubot

[dimmas 123]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

I like Kai in the 10 role, just not upfront. 

He, unlike just about anyone else, gets in between the lines of the other team. Gallagher and Mount are shocking at this. I'd love to see him get a shot at the position, with Fofana upfront. 

Mount can sit. 

 

May i ask a question. What qualities he actually has that make people think havertz will thrive when playing as 10?

What i saw from him on 2,5 years. He can't even create for shit.

He isn't creative.

He isn't good dribbbler. Really poor and slow actually

His touch sometimes too awkward.

He is one of the player who seems weak and sometimes embarrassingly can't hold up the ball. He doesn't have strong upper body, or excellent good control in thight space or having low centre of gravity to help him keeping the ball and do something meaningful when getting muscled and pressure from decent opponent.

He isn't has awesome vision, flair, or technically brilliant ala felix, ozil or typical creative player to play as no.10

 

How many times we actually see, when havertz operates and having the ball far away from the box, he look just like some lost kid. Useless and nothing usefull come from him.

So sometimes i do really wondering what makes some people think he could be good performer when he doesn't play as a striker, especially to play in the 10 role

Edited February 6, 2023 by dimmas

[OneMoSalah 8,616]

28 minutes ago, dimmas said:

May i ask a question. What qualities he actually has that make people think havertz will thrive when playing as 10?

What i saw from him on 2,5 years. He can't even create for shit.

He isn't creative.

He isn't good dribbbler. Really poor and slow actually

His touch sometimes too awkward.

He is one of the player who seems weak and sometimes embarrassingly can't hold up the ball. He doesn't have strong upper body, or excellent good control in thight space or having low centre of gravity to help him keeping the ball and do something meaningful when getting muscled and pressure from decent opponent.

He isn't has awesome vision, flair, or technically brilliant ala felix, ozil or typical creative player to play as no.10

 

How many times we actually see, when havertz operates and having the ball far away from the box, he look just like some lost kid. Useless and nothing usefull come from him.

So sometimes i do really wondering what makes some people think he could be good performer when he doesn't play as a striker, especially to play in the 10 role

Precisely.

Him playing here as a 10 and ending up any better is an absolute no go for me.

If he was going to be much much better player as a 10 do people not think he would be playing that position regularly? 

[gdlk 263]

He cant play 10 because of the beloved son of Chelsea Mason Mount! And so far we didnt played with pure 10 role player 

[Reddish-Blue 2,230]

8 hours ago, Thor said:

I like Kai in the 10 role, just not upfront. 

He, unlike just about anyone else, gets in between the lines of the other team. Gallagher and Mount are shocking at this. I'd love to see him get a shot at the position, with Fofana upfront. 

Mount can sit. 

 

The problem isn't getting in between the lines of the other team, the problem is, he offers nothing else to the team.   To play that #10 role, you have to have that creativity, eye for a pass, longshot ability....and Kai has none of these attributes. 

He is no different to Werner, will immediately look like a solid player again once he returns to the Bundesliga.  

 

[gdlk 263]

All depends from the coach and the atacking system.. When its rigid as fk what creativity you want from players.. And when there is no atacking plan like now a days, what you imagine will happen.. Only blind person cant see, players doesnt know what to do in final third on the pitch.. 

Doing things from Tuchel times with triangles on wings. 

[LAM09 6,557]

On 06/02/2023 at 06:51, robsblubot said:

Dude! So, basically, WTF?! You literally wrote above that "[age] was nothing but a number," which I addressed... perhaps I shouldn't have? So, basically, it was your tangent! 😅Again, it's not my fault the club spent everywhere but in the striker/FW position. Perhaps they don't see anyone worth investing at this time? 🤷‍♂️

I agree that Kai has been poor and I'm not sure he's going to make it at this level... few truly do. I am SURE Kai is a good player, but good isn't always good enough at this level. Wanna bet he'd tear it elsewhere?

My point was about age not having much relevance with regards to either player & whether they should be selected or not whilst you started mentioning the impact of age in life and the collective; a whole different story.

The club are at a crossroads in that position with Auba, Broja, Lukaku, and now Fofana on the books. If rumours going around are to be believe, we'll be making moves for a worthy CF in the summer.

Whether Havertz can tear it up in a league were he plays in his ACTUAL position or have others doing the dirty work around him is neither here or there. If Bayern comes in the summer with a reasonable offer, get the deal done.

[Vegetable 790]

29 minutes ago, LAM09 said:

If rumours going around are to be believe, we'll be making moves for a worthy CF in the summer.

Who would that be? It's like fifth season where there are like 2-3 strikers in game and non of them is super convincing or impressive. I tend to think football is coming to the point, where not only the whole team have to defend to stay at top, but also at least 8 of your men need to be able to find the net. The sole guy only to tap the balls in and needs all the service seems like a waste of resources now. Too bad Kai is not super effective, as the AMF/f9/CF/Winger - ish type of player may be a future.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Vegetable

[Fernando 6,378]

I think I come to the conclusion that he should be sold if we get a good price for him. 

Otherwise before he goes we need to get rid of other first, like Auba, Lukaku. 

But if no price then keep him but get rid of of these other two first. 

[LAM09 6,557]

42 minutes ago, Vegetable said:

Who would that be? It's like fifth season where there are like 2-3 strikers in game and non of them is super convincing or impressive. I tend to think football is coming to the point, where not only the whole team have to defend to stay at top, but also at least 8 of your men need to be able to find the net. The sole guy only to tap the balls in and needs all the service seems like a waste of resources now. Too bad Kai is not super effective, as the AMF/f9/CF/Winger - ish type of player may be a future.

Osimhen, Toney, or Vlahovic I'd personally stick with Broja (providing he comes back okay) & Fofana should Osimhen turn out to be unattainable.

Times have certainly changed. If the whole team isn't giving at least 90% in most matches, it will cost you.  

[robsblubot 3,251]

1 hour ago, LAM09 said:

My point was about age not having much relevance with regards to either player & whether they should be selected or not whilst you started mentioning the impact of age in life and the collective; a whole different story.

The club are at a crossroads in that position with Auba, Broja, Lukaku, and now Fofana on the books. If rumours going around are to be believe, we'll be making moves for a worthy CF in the summer.

Whether Havertz can tear it up in a league were he plays in his ACTUAL position or have others doing the dirty work around him is neither here or there. If Bayern comes in the summer with a reasonable offer, get the deal done.

yeah let's strongly disagree on that then, because for me age is extremely important in high-performance sports, which includes football at this level.

Sure I understand transition. On the other hand, clubs like Chelsea are always at the mercy of *some* success. If for whatever reason some of these players don't deliver immediately (very common) that will affect success, may affect management, which in turn would affect any long-term plans the club may have.

My only point is that there is risk in doing what you suggested (esp around age). And regarding Fofana, I sure did not see anything special: bit of impetus and physicality as I wrote earlier and little else. He will play and improve, but just stating about what I see/saw right now... as a short-term solution.
Fofana scored how many goals in Norway? how many would Kai score in that league? This is all very relative.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,761]

He's not a striker. He doesnt even play the role correctly.

 

Why continue to play him out of position?

[robsblubot 3,251]

MotM for me against Dortmund by a long mile. Haven't played like that for a while and I hope it wasn't only the "CL factor." Also hope it helped rebuild his confidence a bit.

[OneMoSalah 8,616]

Thats the 3 monthly decent performance done, wait and see nothing else decent to the end of the season now.

Why can’t he play like that more often?

I do suppose thats why his future will be under scrutiny in the summer and again, rightfully so. Cant afford to rely on players who only show up once every blue moon when they feel like it.