Super Frank Thread

[Puliiszola 519]

13 minutes ago, Jason said:

Firstly, I do not know why you and maybe even some others are so sensitive to any negative thing said against Lampard that you must respond immediately. Why? Is it a crime?

Secondly, I wasn't even criticizing Lampard. I was merely disagreeing with the points Simon Johnson used in his piece and given he used the Klopp-Liverpool and Guardiola-Man City comparison as opposed to say what you mentioned - Klopp-Dortmund and Guardiola-Barcelona - was I wrong in stating the facts above? And given the kind of reputation The Athletic have built and the access that their journalists have, I was expecting more from them than putting out arguments that can be found elsewhere on the internet. 

How is it sensitive? If all or most you post is negative, then the few who are pro-FL will simply defend it. 

The article is well written and well articulated starting with how much stick FL is getting by fanbase, how much shit his predecessors were. He has a LOT of valid points. The comparison with pep and Klopp was not literal. It was just an example of having patience. As well might have used SAF at United (how mant years did it take for him to win his first title) or Wenger at arsenal. It was simple saying "Rome was not built in a day". Maybe FL does not deserve as much leeway as Klopp (his team was shit until he hit gold with vvd). But he sure as hell deserves far more than what we have been giving him. It seems he is on "thin ice" with the fans which is utterly ridiculous given that we massively over acheived last season, had one of the best transfer windows since 2004, and are generally looking to be on an upward trajectory. 

So obviously you can write whatever you want regarding FL, it's definitely not a crime. But why is defending him being treated as such. I am simply stating facts here. 

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

This is a very lazy piece of journalism TBH, especially coming from The Athletic. The comparison argument feels like one straight out of a fan forum. Yes, Klopp and Guardiola were given time to build their team at Liverpool and Man City respectively but the one key difference between them and Lampard is that they already had a track record of success before they joined their current club. So Liverpool and Man City knew that while things may not go according to plan to begin with, they knew they will actually turn out to be alright. They knew what they were getting from Klopp and Guardiola. But what track record does Lampard have as a manager before joining us? Only 1 year of managerial experience in the Championship. That's it. We don't have much to fall back on apart from what Lampard is doing right now at the club. We can only judge him based on what we have seen over the last 13-14 months and one can hardly be blamed for questioning him (and no, don't confuse this with asking Lampard to be sacked). A better way to go about arguing whether Lampard will be given time (by Roman) would be to analyze what he has done right, what he has done wrong and what he needs to do to ensure we as a club progress and achieve the objectives we want to achieve. Heck, it might even be good to get some inside info! All the talking is one thing but ultimately, it's all about progression and getting results. 

Even more so the give him time to build a squad. Hes spent just north of 200m this summer on Mendy, Werner, Havertz, Chilwell, Silva (free yes), Ziyech and Sarr (another free) and wants to spend more on Rice. If we get Rice thats what 8 players he’s added to the squad. Plus he okay’d the signing of Kovacic also so can put him down to one of his buys if you want to. Getting time to change say 14 players in a squad isnt a valid excuse for me if a sign of progression in 1 and a bit seasons is hard to see. Klopp spent a lot then won when he spent 75m on VVD and 67m on Alisson in space of a season. After realising they needed them. Guardiola won after spending 200-300m his second year. What more do they want him to do? Spend another 200m? The backings there he has to turn it into wins and trophies. Cannot keep spending 200m every season and use this as an excuse. Same with Pep now again, hes spent near 400-500m on CBs and FBs alone if he doesnt win anything with City this season he will have failed this season.

[Vesper 28,786]

How Chelsea's secret signing could be Frank Lampard's most important arrival this season

Chelsea have been splashing the cash over the transfer window with the likes of Kai Havertz, Ben Chilwell and Timo Werner joining but Frank Lampard has a secret weapon

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/chelsea-transfer-news-lampard-update-22780496

snip

The expectations have ramped up at Stamford Bridge and the Blues boss has been touted to challenge for trophies.

But one thing he must improve is his defence - which has been scarily leaky, conceding 54 times last year in the Premier League - the most in the top 10.

It has led to Lampard looking to not just improve his squad but his backroom staff, with Anthony Barry joining from Wigan Athletic.

Despite being just 34, he joins with glowing references and studied for his UEFA Pro Licence in June alongside Lampard and Chelsea's assistant manager Jody Morris.

Barry has been branded a defensive-minded coach but his abilities go much further than that.

The former Accrington Stanley star is an avid user of video analysis, going into diligent detail over every facet available.

His relentless commitment to his work will undoubtedly be an absolute asset to Lampard.

Individual errors, set-pieces and poor organisation has cost them goals at the back while going forward, Chelsea could be accused of not utilising their awesome arsenal of talent to their full capacity.

With Barry behind the scenes, the Blues should be achieving that one per cent extra sometimes necessary that can be the difference between winning and losing.

During his time at Wigan, he was also close with Reece James - who has become a key part of Chelsea's XI.

The Englishman starred for the Latics during a loan spell there and knows all about how good the full-back is.

Then there is his enthusiasm, electric personality and popularity among players and staff - which will no doubt make him an infectious member of Chelsea's team.

With Lampard still in the infancy of his managerial career, having a talented squad is one thing - but he will know it will not count for anything without a proper crew of coaches who are willing to put in the graft necessary - and Barry ticks that box.

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

Even more so the give him time to build a squad. Hes spent just north of 200m this summer on Mendy, Werner, Havertz, Chilwell, Silva (free yes), Ziyech and Sarr (another free) and wants to spend more on Rice. If we get Rice thats what 8 players he’s added to the squad. Plus he okay’d the signing of Kovacic also so can put him down to one of his buys if you want to. Getting time to change say 14 players in a squad isnt a valid excuse for me if a sign of progression in 1 and a bit seasons is hard to see. Klopp spent a lot then won when he spent 75m on VVD and 67m on Alisson in space of a season. After realising they needed them. Guardiola won after spending 200-300m his second year. What more do they want him to do? Spend another 200m? The backings there he has to turn it into wins and trophies. Cannot keep spending 200m every season and use this as an excuse. Same with Pep now again, hes spent near 400-500m on CBs and FBs alone if he doesnt win anything with City this season he will have failed this season.

Careful mate. We're not allowed to say anything negative about Lampard... 

[nofacej 132]

2 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Even more so the give him time to build a squad. Hes spent just north of 200m this summer on Mendy, Werner, Havertz, Chilwell, Silva (free yes), Ziyech and Sarr (another free) and wants to spend more on Rice. If we get Rice thats what 8 players he’s added to the squad. Plus he okay’d the signing of Kovacic also so can put him down to one of his buys if you want to. Getting time to change say 14 players in a squad isnt a valid excuse for me if a sign of progression in 1 and a bit seasons is hard to see. Klopp spent a lot then won when he spent 75m on VVD and 67m on Alisson in space of a season. After realising they needed them. Guardiola won after spending 200-300m his second year. What more do they want him to do? Spend another 200m? The backings there he has to turn it into wins and trophies. Cannot keep spending 200m every season and use this as an excuse. Same with Pep now again, hes spent near 400-500m on CBs and FBs alone if he doesnt win anything with City this season he will have failed this season.

Personally, I think your examples work against your argument, not for it.

 

In Klopp's first couple of seasons at Liverpool they were a lot like us. Decent going forward, but with a dodgy keeper and defence and it was only through big money signings that Klopp was able to elevate them to their current level.

Similarly, Pep took over a much better City side than Lamps did with Chelsea, and despite spending big in his first season, keeping and defensive woes lead to a pretty underwhelming first season.

Pep got it right in his second season (with the help of even more signings) and stormed the league but in both examples there's a similar pattern.

 

It's too early to judge this Chelsea team, but I think we can all agree that the Palace game was full of positive signs and with Ziyech and Pulisic still to come I'm feeling a lot more positive about things than I was even a day ago.

And regardless of Lampard's long term suitability to manage us, I'm very happy with the signings he has made so far.

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

1 hour ago, nofacej said:

Personally, I think your examples work against your argument, not for it.

 

In Klopp's first couple of seasons at Liverpool they were a lot like us. Decent going forward, but with a dodgy keeper and defence and it was only through big money signings that Klopp was able to elevate them to their current level.

Similarly, Pep took over a much better City side than Lamps did with Chelsea, and despite spending big in his first season, keeping and defensive woes lead to a pretty underwhelming first season.

Pep got it right in his second season (with the help of even more signings) and stormed the league but in both examples there's a similar pattern.

 

It's too early to judge this Chelsea team, but I think we can all agree that the Palace game was full of positive signs and with Ziyech and Pulisic still to come I'm feeling a lot more positive about things than I was even a day ago.

And regardless of Lampard's long term suitability to manage us, I'm very happy with the signings he has made so far.

Personally I don’t see how it does.

Klopp overhauled their squad but it took him longer due to not having the same finances we have if I am honest but before he got Alisson and VVD At least you could see his clear identity on the team and how they would play, with the signs that they were short of two key positions: CB (VVD) and GK (Alisson).

Would you not say the additions of Mendy, Thiago Silva, Ben Chilwell, Timo Werner, Hakim Ziyech, Kai Havertz on top of using Mason, Tammy, Reece, Billy and Tomori last season is basically overhauling the squad so to speak plus Kovacic joining permanently and Pulisic joining up last summer also. Thats 13 changes to the squad in 1 and a bit seasons. Plus the club allowing Ross to leave, David Luiz to leave, Gary Cahill to leave, Eden to leave, Willian to leave, Pedro to leave etc the squad has been refreshed and we really should have built a platform of some sort last season but after December we didn't make any real progress and regressed due to poor performances and questionable tactical/in game management. 

Klopp had to take 2 or 3 seasons really to fully overhaul that squad but the identity was always there and we have basically done an overhaul in 18 months in my opinion without a clear identity or way of playing. If he has to spend another 200m or 300m to be successful in some regard thats proof enough Frank isn’t the right man for this job in my eyes because a squad with this quality of players now, the Ziyechs, Werners, Havertz, Chilwells, Jorginhos, Kantes, Kovacics, Thiago Silvas, Azpilicuetas, this should be enough for any reasonable manager worth their salt to make a formidable team and this season if it doesnt happen then questions should definitely be asked. 100%. How long has it taken Arteta to put an identity on Arsenal? Or win a trophy? Or how much spending did it take him?

Those players we have signed are definitely good enough too to be aiming a bit higher than just finish 4th now. Or waiting another season so we can spend another 200m and make a go for the title or push them closer than last year.

If this were a Jose Mourinho, an Antonio Conte, a Maurizio Sarri - there wouldn’t be the same attitude. That is a fact. He has to deliver a trophy and we have to be in that top 3 being much closer with a much better GD also.

 

[nofacej 132]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

Personally I don’t see how it does.

Klopp overhauled their squad but it took him longer due to not having the same finances we have if I am honest but before he got Alisson and VVD At least you could see his clear identity on the team and how they would play, with the signs that they were short of two key positions: CB (VVD) and GK (Alisson).

Would you not say the additions of Mendy, Thiago Silva, Ben Chilwell, Timo Werner, Hakim Ziyech, Kai Havertz on top of using Mason, Tammy, Reece, Billy and Tomori last season is basically overhauling the squad so to speak plus Kovacic joining permanently and Pulisic joining up last summer also. Thats 13 changes to the squad in 1 and a bit seasons. Plus the club allowing Ross to leave, David Luiz to leave, Gary Cahill to leave, Eden to leave, Willian to leave, Pedro to leave etc the squad has been refreshed and we really should have built a platform of some sort last season but after December we didn't make any real progress and regressed due to poor performances and questionable tactical/in game management. 

Klopp had to take 2 or 3 seasons really to fully overhaul that squad but the identity was always there and we have basically done an overhaul in 18 months in my opinion without a clear identity or way of playing. If he has to spend another 200m or 300m to be successful in some regard thats proof enough Frank isn’t the right man for this job in my eyes because a squad with this quality of players now, the Ziyechs, Werners, Havertz, Chilwells, Jorginhos, Kantes, Kovacics, Thiago Silvas, Azpilicuetas, this should be enough for any reasonable manager worth their salt to make a formidable team and this season if it doesnt happen then questions should definitely be asked. 100%. How long has it taken Arteta to put an identity on Arsenal? Or win a trophy? Or how much spending did it take him?

Those players we have signed are definitely good enough too to be aiming a bit higher than just finish 4th now. Or waiting another season so we can spend another 200m and make a go for the title or push them closer than last year.

If this were a Jose Mourinho, an Antonio Conte, a Maurizio Sarri - there wouldn’t be the same attitude. That is a fact. He has to deliver a trophy and we have to be in that top 3 being much closer with a much better GD also.

 

It took Guardiola (a much more experienced manager) 2 seasons worth of big money signings to win the league having inherited a much stronger and more experienced side.

This is Frank's first season where he's been able to make signings (Kovacic doesn't count to me).

If you were to put the timelines side by side, I think it's fair to say that, in terms of squad development, this season is pretty equivalent to Pep's first season.

Like you, I also want this season to be much better than last season, but I don't expect Chelsea to win the league this season.
What I'd like to see is a much improved campaign this season and Chelsea winning the league within the next 3 seasons.

Whether or not Frank is the man to lead Chelsea to that title is up for debate, but for now it's way too early to be making judgements one way or another.

If there's been no improvement 3 months from now and Frank still hasn't settled on a starting 11 then I'll start to question his suitability for the role going forward.

[Tomo 21,733]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

This is a very lazy piece of journalism TBH, especially coming from The Athletic. The comparison argument feels like one straight out of a fan forum. Yes, Klopp and Guardiola were given time to build their team at Liverpool and Man City respectively but the one key difference between them and Lampard is that they already had a track record of success before they joined their current club. So Liverpool and Man City knew that while things may not go according to plan to begin with, they knew they will actually turn out to be alright. They knew what they were getting from Klopp and Guardiola. But what track record does Lampard have as a manager before joining us? Only 1 year of managerial experience in the Championship. That's it. We don't have much to fall back on apart from what Lampard is doing right now at the club. We can only judge him based on what we have seen over the last 13-14 months and one can hardly be blamed for questioning him (and no, don't confuse this with asking Lampard to be sacked). A better way to go about arguing whether Lampard will be given time (by Roman) would be to analyze what he has done right, what he has done wrong and what he needs to do to ensure we as a club progress and achieve the objectives we want to achieve. Heck, it might even be good to get some inside info! All the talking is one thing but ultimately, it's all about progression and getting results. 

Lampard's predecessor had a track record of building a title challenging side (ok not winning but if he couldn't find a way to get us over the line then at that point we could have replaced him with one that could ala the Ranieri/Mou changeover) and that wasn't enough for the majority of fans to grant him time.

[Puliiszola 519]

6 hours ago, nofacej said:

Personally, I think your examples work against your argument, not for it.

 

In Klopp's first couple of seasons at Liverpool they were a lot like us. Decent going forward, but with a dodgy keeper and defence and it was only through big money signings that Klopp was able to elevate them to their current level.

Similarly, Pep took over a much better City side than Lamps did with Chelsea, and despite spending big in his first season, keeping and defensive woes lead to a pretty underwhelming first season.

Pep got it right in his second season (with the help of even more signings) and stormed the league but in both examples there's a similar pattern.

 

It's too early to judge this Chelsea team, but I think we can all agree that the Palace game was full of positive signs and with Ziyech and Pulisic still to come I'm feeling a lot more positive about things than I was even a day ago.

And regardless of Lampard's long term suitability to manage us, I'm very happy with the signings he has made so far.

Ssssshhh. We are not allowed to make sensible posts which put FL in a positive light.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

8 hours ago, Vesper said:

How Chelsea's secret signing could be Frank Lampard's most important arrival this season

Chelsea have been splashing the cash over the transfer window with the likes of Kai Havertz, Ben Chilwell and Timo Werner joining but Frank Lampard has a secret weapon

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/chelsea-transfer-news-lampard-update-22780496

snip

The expectations have ramped up at Stamford Bridge and the Blues boss has been touted to challenge for trophies.

But one thing he must improve is his defence - which has been scarily leaky, conceding 54 times last year in the Premier League - the most in the top 10.

It has led to Lampard looking to not just improve his squad but his backroom staff, with Anthony Barry joining from Wigan Athletic.

Despite being just 34, he joins with glowing references and studied for his UEFA Pro Licence in June alongside Lampard and Chelsea's assistant manager Jody Morris.

Barry has been branded a defensive-minded coach but his abilities go much further than that.

The former Accrington Stanley star is an avid user of video analysis, going into diligent detail over every facet available.

His relentless commitment to his work will undoubtedly be an absolute asset to Lampard.

Individual errors, set-pieces and poor organisation has cost them goals at the back while going forward, Chelsea could be accused of not utilising their awesome arsenal of talent to their full capacity.

With Barry behind the scenes, the Blues should be achieving that one per cent extra sometimes necessary that can be the difference between winning and losing.

During his time at Wigan, he was also close with Reece James - who has become a key part of Chelsea's XI.

The Englishman starred for the Latics during a loan spell there and knows all about how good the full-back is.

Then there is his enthusiasm, electric personality and popularity among players and staff - which will no doubt make him an infectious member of Chelsea's team.

With Lampard still in the infancy of his managerial career, having a talented squad is one thing - but he will know it will not count for anything without a proper crew of coaches who are willing to put in the graft necessary - and Barry ticks that box.

I'm happy with Anthony Barrys introduction, i can see signs of our improvements in defending. Tactical fouls to prevent counters, set piece defending, etc. 

The only thing is that the improved defense has come to the detriment of our attack, which looks stale compared to the beginning of last season. But once Pulisic and Ziyech come back and play a few games together with Havertz, I know the attacking fluidity will instantly improve because lampards system in attack largely depends on the quality of players and their form on the day. Its not a practiced system like Leeds who Bielsa grills to play a certain pattern no matter who is in the lineup. 

[DDA 9,690]

16 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

Now maintain that back four. Stop rotating, let them get to know themselves better. 

I like that we are making more tactical fouls when we lose the ball. No need to allow a counter fester when you can stop it early at source immediately. 

Now put Werner back in his position and Pulisic on the left with Havertz in the middle and Odoi on the right and we have a very dynamic team in attack.

Thankfully, Frank said in his post match conference on the 5th stand that he wants a settled back 4. He was looking for it last year but couldn't find it and hopes this is the start of it. Chilwell and Silva bring the balance we needed soo badly. Ontop of which, singing Mendy may have been a masterstroke considering he is French speaking along with Silva and Zouma. 

[kellzfresh 7,229]

2 minutes ago, DDA said:

Thankfully, Frank said in his post match conference on the 5th stand that he wants a settled back 4. He was looking for it last year but couldn't find it and hopes this is the start of it. Chilwell and Silva bring the balance we needed soo badly. Ontop of which, singing Mendy may have been a masterstroke considering he is French speaking along with Silva and Zouma. 

It would be lovely once he settles on the back 4. Every top team in Europe can name their starting back four instantly. You're right about the Mendy French, didnt think about that. That will only improve the chemistry and understanding.

But I saw on instagram that Thiago silva is also trying hard to learn English too. 

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Tomo said:

Lampard's predecessor had a track record of building a title challenging side (ok not winning but if he couldn't find a way to get us over the line then at that point we could have replaced him with one that could ala the Ranieri/Mou changeover) and that wasn't enough for the majority of fans to grant him time.

Really, Tomo? Are you gonna pretend like circumstances (e.g. Juventus came calling) didn't lead to Sarri wanting to leave? 

And given what subsequently happened with Sarri at Juventus, are you gonna say we made the wrong decision to let him leave for Juventus? 

[Tomo 21,733]

12 minutes ago, Jason said:

Really, Tomo? Are you gonna pretend like circumstances (e.g. Juventus came calling) didn't lead to Sarri wanting to leave? 

And given what subsequently happened with Sarri at Juventus, are you gonna say we made the wrong decision to let him leave for Juventus? 

Point is about the fan perception. Whether we were right or wrong to not give him that time is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

I lose count of the amount of time I hear (paraphrasing) "would be easier to go all in on backing Lampard if we had a blue print from a previous job to suggest it may be worth it".

Sarri had that and 90% of the fanbase wanted him out, that's the point.

[Jase 43,479]

8 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Point is about the fan perception. Whether we were right or wrong to not give him that time is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

I lose count of the amount of time I hear (paraphrasing) "would be easier to go all in on backing Lampard if we had a blue print from a previous job to suggest it may be worth it".

Sarri had that and 90% of the fanbase wanted him out, that's the point.

Even then, let's not pretend like there weren't circumstances - such as his management style - that led to people questioning Sarri during his time here.

And for the record, no one is crazy enough to suggest that Lampard should be sacked right now (something that some fans seem to think so every time there is something negative - even the slightest negative word - said about Lampard) but at the same time, let's not pretend everything has been or is rosy. No one associated to Chelsea wants to see him fail at the job and if he can improve us, get us to where we want to be, then great, all the better. As I said before, all the talking is one thing but ultimately, it'll come down to what Lampard does with the team on the pitch. It'll come down to team progression and results. If those don't happen, then we know how this will all end up.

[Strike 7,217]

I think James over Azpi is the best backline

[Blues Forever 1,232]

40 minutes ago, Strike said:

I think James over Azpi is the best backline

Nah Azpi is better, James just can't defend properly.

[Jase 43,479]

11 minutes ago, Blues Forever said:

Nah Azpi is better, James just can't defend properly.

One is better offensively while the other is better defensively. Can we find a way to merge them both?