The Mourinho Thread

[Barbara 15,149]

Are we actually already seeing fans calling the manager deluded?

From his appointment people knew this was a team in transition, and the trouble areas are still to be addressed. What we need is patience and a commitment to the belief that he is the best man for the job. I still think he is.

And yes, I know today was frustrating but that's part of supporting a football club. You don't get instant success anymore, it takes time but to see some types of supporters turning aiming these barbs at the manager is a little hysterical.

I think saying we played a good first half was somewhat deluding, but someone else (sorry forgot who), raised a valid point: Mourinho already reacted negatively in the press room last week. He wouldn't (and should't) blame the players again. I think he's struggling a lot dealing with this squad because certain players are less resilient or mentally strong than he's used to or than he expected them to be. So while at first I agreed he was deluding himself believing that was a good display, I believe he wasn't being absolutely honest. Of course there were positives, but he knows certain things need to change, it's just he won't crucify his players again. It was wise and for the best he shielded the squad. I'm positive he'll be more realistic with the players, but I still feel he has a good amount of players that can't deal with pressure and he has to find a common ground between pushing and understanding. It's a hard thing to do, but people think it's an easy job...

'I'm satisfied, the attitude in the first half was the correct one, be patient, wait for a mistake, wait for space. In the second half the first goal was our mistake, the second one was a referee mistake, which is part of football as well, and after that our reaction was either die or fight for life,' he said.

You see. The slow start game after game is just part of Jose's plans. Awesome.

He complained exactly about being passive last week, which reinforces the idea I pointed above. He was shielding and protecting the squad. If he complained about waiting the goal to arrive last week (those were his exact words) I'm positive he didn't change his view in football in 7 days. If you compare both pressers you'll see he's saying opposite things about philosophy in both of them. He's lying to protect the players now, but I'm sure he'll be very honest with them when they meet again.

I had two big concerns about Mourinho being appointed.

1) Fans attributed too much of our earlier success to him rather than the massive spending that Roman brought with him (we were outspending our rivals 10-1) and thought that we could repeat our dominance which is simply not possible now that many teams spend big. (Managers tend to only make a minor difference anyway) so expectations would be out of control.

2) Mourinho is a very good manager but he isn't suited to the players we have. We bought players to build a fluid, attacking system. Suddenly switching to a defensive-minded counter-attacking system didn't make sense with with the players we had. It's still a concern I think;

To be fair, our team is an absolute jumble right now. We have so many different kinds of players who don't really fit together that any system we play will be flawed. Why we spent so much money and still didn't buy a proper central midfielder or any players who provide width will never make sense to me.

1) Still City took years to win the league with the same investment. The same can be said about other teams in other countries, but still winning in England is harder. There are barely 2 serious contenders in Bundesliga, La Liga and Serie A (sorry, I don't even talk about the rest, the other leagues aren't in the same 'league' as those major 4). Serie A is more competitive but Italian football has been in crisis for a while now (corruption does that to you), so instead of leveling it from the top, it's been leveled from the bottom. But Inter, Juve, Milan as the biggest forces and then Roma, Lazio and Napoli are rarely very strong (to their standards) in the same season. It's rarely a close championship with more than two of those fighting for the title. So having money doesn't mean automatically winning titles. Maybe in Canada and USA it does (I don't follow any leagues of any sports there, can't say), but in football - especially in those big European leagues - it isn't just as simple. Again, Chelsea fans are spoiled by the prompt results we had once money was injected, but we're the exception that proves the rule, not the rule

2) Mourinho wasn't hired to make our attack be fluid (or for the attack not to be fluid), he also wasn't hired to make those players win everything this season (those players weren't signed for that either) so if that's why he shouldn't be considered the man for the job I'm sure he'll stay for a long while because that's not even the job he was hired for.

I have never been a fan of Mourinho and what is happening is what I feared before the season, we have played a lot of matches and we have perhaps scored only one or two goals in open play after a build-up play, all the goals have been counter-attacks, set-pieces or keeper's mystake by the opponent.

We have the right to say it, especially after the abuse that Benitez received and where no excuses was tolerated while he arrived in a much more difficult situation with players not in great shape in the end of the Di Matteo reign, leaking goals easily, letting the other team shoot and cross way too much. we were much more balanced at the end with Benitez.

I still think Mourinho was not the right choice with the players we have in our squad. His former chelsea team had great midfielders, poweful players and his team was already not playing a great passing game, relying more on players bullying opponents. Many scraping matches back then against average opponents, this time we don't have the players to bully the opponents.

Just what I said above, as he wasn't hired to make those boys win everything this season - and he was probably the wrong guy for that job - it's okay. The problem is fans don't seem to be aligned with the club's main objectives now. We're Chelsea, we're always going to enter a competition to win it, but that's not #1 priority now. As fans is hard for us to accept or even understand that. So I say that's the problem... fans wanted a manager because their goal is to win titles this season and nothing else matters. The owner - and consequently the club - is aiming something bigger because the owner already through this phase of his life as a business man in the football business. Now that he's proved himself as a business man even in football, he's taking it to the next step, so at the end of the day it's just that our objectives and the club's objective diverge a little bit.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Sometimes I feel people are supporting more their ideas than the team.

I can say exact same thing about you.

[Sheva. 5,373]

The person in question wasn't saying a player should be subbed, he suggested that one of our greats was tarnishing his legacy. Criticism like that is fucking laughable, so unless you want to defend that then I don't think we need to continue this discussion.

Fair enough. But 65 minutes into the game, Lampard was far and away our worst player. Lethargic in everything, wouldn't say tarnishing his legacy, but can't say he's helping it with performances like that either.

[The Mak 4,459]

Yeah there is. You support the club, you support the players and you keep your criticisms fair.

Yes, but according to you there's still an 'elite' set of Chelsea fans; those who can go to the Bridge on most occasions.

And fuck privileged position. I work fucking hard and make sacrifices to support this club, which is something you don't seem to understand. Very few people in the ground aren't in that boat.

And you think others on here wouldn't do the same if they had the chance?!?

Listen, you've made your position very clear in the past. There's not much point in you trying to sugar coat it now because I'm going into a big debate about it. I'm going out to watch the second half of the Newcastle game anyway.

[Term-X 7,891]

That's not why you were called a troll. Not to be too much of an arsehole, but whilst we might have our disagreements about Jose, Ivanovic, Mikel etc. the one thing we all agree on is you.

You sir bring us all together.

He's already been banned from one of JimCFC's forums before (AFF.com), Alex clearly never got the memo..

Not for breaking the rules, but for the quality of his posts. He spammed the whole board with barely literate single sentences, making the forum look cheap/tacky and not the type of place you'd want to sign up. There is nothing original or thoughtful about what bushman adds to the forum, and even worse.. he can't compose an argument to save his life.

[borriske 330]

Are you serious? I mean transition doesn't mean lack of titles, just a phase between two places. This is not an excuse for the lack of titles (why we're talking about titles in November is beyond me, but okay). Of course we have a shot this year, so does Arsenal, ManCity and who knows maybe even ManUtd and Liverpool. And so does Bayern, Barcelona, RM, Dortmund among others in Europe. Transition isn't an excuse for not winning, it's just addressing the obvious no matter how in denial people can be. Mourinho was hired to deliver a job: create a football identity to this club, not only this team. He's been saying he'll chase titles the best he can while he does that, but his boss asked him something very clear, something his boss thinks the club can now work with: a style of football that will be a legacy. Of course there will be pressure to win, but I'm sure when Roman looks to the last few years when we won nearly randomly and he knows it can't get worse than that. He looks back and to when we don't win the national league or even fight for it since 2010, when we were underdogs winning UCL and struggled with weak sides to win a second tier european title and he thinks, if we're going to win things without ever being real contenders, I better at least invest into making Chelsea a powerhouse in football. It's not like we've been top dogs in England or Europe lately...

Are they any doubts Roman is a smart man? You don't build an empire like he did if you aren't. He bought a club and the titles came, so he proved this team can be big in terms of title. Then he looked at teams like Bayern and Barcelona and studied their recent history to know or learn how they reached the level they're now. Barcelona isn't the biggest team in Spain and a few titles in the 2000's didn't turn them into that. RM is by a fair lead the biggest team in that country, but Barça are closing the gap. They were in a much inferior position and now they're fighting to prove they can the biggest team in history in Spain. Roman looked at how a team that while always had history never came close to be a powerhouse like Madrid, worked around and became the biggest team this century in that country. He saw a legacy being passed from manager to manager, as players came and left. Then he looked at Bayern and saw the same (except Bayern bought their way into greatness in the 70's, something very similar to what Chelsea did with Roman now in the 2000's). But he saw a philosophy that took years to be built. Last year I remember reading an interview from Bayern's president (forgot his name) where he said he looked at Barcelona and decided to copy their model (he didn't say it as straight as that, but he did say he looked at them and if I remember correctly he even said he went to Barcelona and talked to their president about the philosophy there). He decided to replicate it at Bayern and he paid the price. The team - even when facing lesser title contenders in Bundesliga - struggled and lost and I'll tell they're not done yet, they didn't reach their final goal yet. The fact that until Dortmund became a real contender, Bayern still struggled to win (and lost) titles in the Bundesliga when they had much more money should be taken into consideration. They paid a price and now they're collecting the results of a long term project.

I assume based on everything we read Roman decided to do the same. We already won every title (of importance) that was there to win, we don't have to prove anything to anyone, but we could take it to the next level and that's what they're trying. Mourinho won't be fired because of results and lack of titles, he will be fired if he shows Roman he's the wrong man to create an identity, to deal with those still young eggs and their limitations and fragility. Maybe Mourinho is the wrong man to the job, I'm not saying he's the right man, but then he's wrong for creating an identity and that can only be measured a couple of years down the road, not a couple of months. He'll be fired and proved the wrong man to the job when it's possible to evaluate his job and the message is clear, the job is to create a legacy, not to win titles off the bat as we did for years now, struggling a lot, being completely inconsistent (such as winning UCL and ending 6th in the national league) and unpredictable. When was the last time we were considered favorite to win EPL and real contenders to win UCL? We won the former as contenders (not favorite and there's a difference) and the latter as underdogs. That's not what Roman wants, and as he's smart and also not deluded, he knows you don't build a team like that in a couple of seasons (let alone 4 months) because he knows he didn't become a millionaire within a couple of years. He's a business man, a very successful one, so he won't make rookie mistakes with football, now that he's familiar with the hurdles and challenges of this specific business. It's long a term investment and process and he knows it. Denying that we'll go through a transition that will last a couple of years is refusing to see what's happening and reading between the lines.

Also, people who became fans during the Roman era (nothing wrong with that) only know this Chelsea, they don't know the old Chelsea. That alone has been a transition... Just look to ManCity to see how difficult it is to make a transition in your status. One year you're a mid-table team, maybe fighting relegation (after being relegated too many times) and the next you have a squad that is worth half a billion. If anything I'm very surprised we've won so much in such a short time. We were in CL SF and finals in a matter of a few years. Again, the problem is we've got spoiled... and I wonder what will happen to this club's support if we ever go through what Liverpool and Arsenal have been through the last few years and fear not, we will, every team goes a period of time when they don't win. Just look at history.

Also, let's talk about titles or the lack of them either when we don't have chances of winning any or when we've already won any. No one could predict Chelsea to win the UCL in 2012 and we haven't been contenders to EPL since we won it. Not to say last year we didn't even make UCL round of 16. So I'd say the expectations about titles for Chelsea are very low for years now, and the people who need to be realistic about it, are, so I'm not worried at all and I'm sure Mourinho is much less.

I hope you're right about this. But if it's all about vision, then why buy all these players of one type ('small' technical players suited to a more fluid passing game) and then a coach who stands for the exact opposite (defensive discipline and counter)?

[Barbara 15,149]

I can say exact same thing about you.

I'm not pointing fingers, Raphael. I'm talking about a feeling.

I have opinions, and I'm lucky a lot of them match with Mourinho's, so it's easy for me to support him. We do think the same about a lot of things. So when something goes wrong and a lot of people come yelling at the top of their lungs they were right and Chelsea is now bad, I'm shocked by it.

That post initially included a Brazilian aspect to it, even your name was there along other Brazilian fans. I feel it's different here. We bitch a lot, but we don't want to be proved right when our club is losing! We bitch about our managers, players and cartolas (board members), but I'm not familiar with fans bragging about being right and the team being screwed or losing, but still being proud of being right all along. I see people upset, defeated, angry, but not proud to be right... Sorry if for me that's a foreign concept. I thought it was cultural, but I guess it's not.

Also when did you ever saw me relishing on Chelsea's loss because I was proved right? Maybe the Mazacar episode? Well I bitched, before, during, after it and then I moved on. It's obvious we can't play them, but I never said Oscar, Mata or Hazard shouldn't be Chelsea players anymore (as I've read many times only in the last 24h) or that Mourinho isn't the man for the job. I said Mourinho made a mistake imo, I said it before the match and I repeated it after the match. I'm not saying he's shit, Oscar, Mata or Hazard are shit and none of them are the men for the job as I predicted months ago. Can you see the difference of what I'm saying here? Bitching is normal, but the moaning is much deeper than I'm used to. Can I have a right to be foreign to this kind of reaction? If you keep reading the post you'll see I conclude that paragraph saying that I'm not saying supporting like this is wrong, just that's it's a wild concept for me.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I can say exact same thing about you.

You'd be on your own.

Yes, but according to you there's still an 'elite' set of Chelsea fans; those who can go to the Bridge on most occasions.

They're not fucking special forces, but there are certainly supporters who I have thanked for keeping this club alive for me to enjoy.

And you think others on here wouldn't do the same if they had the chance?!?

Listen, you've made your position very clear in the past. There's not much point in you trying to sugar coat it now because I'm going into a big debate about it. I'm going out to watch the second half of the Newcastle game anyway.

Had the chance? Sorry mate but most people I know don't choose to support this club. They do it because it was passed down to them. It isn't always enjoyable and there aren't always commemorative football shirts to order with little trophies on, but they cheer us on through the sun and rain.

[borriske 330]

Can we please stop discussing who's the better supporter? Make a separate thread about it if you want (and bring a ruler) but i thougt we were here to discuss the manager.

[Barbara 15,149]

I hope you're right about this. But if it's all about vision, then why buy all these players of one type ('small' technical players suited to a more fluid passing game) and then a coach who stands for the exact opposite (defensive discipline and counter)?

there's another change in the philosophy. We're signing younger players because we want to mold the players ourselves. That's the biggest mark in Barcelona and what Bayern has been trying to emulate. This interview (actually I've watched it, not read as I said before, as now I remember it better) Bayern's president was talking how he went to Barcelona's academy and saw how it's done. It's about you having a philosophy and teaching it to your players since very young age. First we need to create the philosophy (what kind of football do we want to be known by? Possession? Counter-attack? Total football? Attacking? Defensive). Once you establish that you start working in your academy and with your young players in the main squad to make sure they think, breathe and sweat that philosophy. That's why we've changed drastically the kind of players we've been signing. We see Eto'o signings for very specific needs, but the tendency is for us to keep signing Piazons, Lukakus, Oscars, Hazards, van Ginkels until we can identify those players like we did with Traoré, when they're 15, 16 (or even younger) and we mold them in our philosophy from the beginning. I wish Roman was interviewed like other owners and presidents were so he could talk more clearly about his plans. But based on what Emenalo and Mourinho have been saying, that's the conclusion I came. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are too many evidences of that in their interviews.

[The only place to be 11,313]

there's another change in the philosophy. We're signing younger players because we want to mold the players ourselves. That's the biggest mark in Barcelona and what Bayern has been trying to emulate. This interview (actually I've watched it, not read as I said before, as now I remember it better) Bayern's president was talking how he went to Barcelona's academy and saw how it's done. It's about you having a philosophy and teaching it to your players since very young age. First we need to create the philosophy (what kind of football do we want to be known by? Possession? Counter-attack? Total football? Attacking? Defensive). Once you establish that you start working in your academy and with your young players in the main squad to make sure they think, breathe and sweat that philosophy. That's why we've changed drastically the kind of players we've been signing. We see Eto'o signings for very specific needs, but the tendency is for us to keep signing Piazons, Lukakus, Oscars, Hazards, van Ginkels until we can identify those players like we did with Traoré, when they're 15, 16 (or even younger) and we mold them in our philosophy from the beginning. I wish Roman was interviewed like other owners and presidents were so he could talk more clearly about his plans. But based on what Emenalo and Mourinho have been saying, that's the conclusion I came. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are too many evidences of that in their interviews.

Again, spot on.

Mourinho formed an identity and it existed long after he left and led us to Champions League triumph. Ancelotti never built one and no-one else had the time.

Now Jose is building another identity, a slightly different one and people are questioning him in November? Have we learnt nothing?

[Blue Traveler 256]

The amount ridiculity of some comments in this forum is just preposterous.

Jose not the right man for the job?! Then who is? Guardiola? And you lot think you can get him? And he is willing to come here? And let’s say we did. You think he can turn us around ASAP in no time? And if he couldn’t, what next? Should we go for Avram Grant again? FSW?

Man City spending just like we do if not more they has more players at their peaks than us. Are they top of the table at the moment? Manure is sitting at middle of the table, looking shit this term aren’t they the team won the PL last season under SAF?

[Rmpr 8,977]

The amount ridiculity of some comments in this forum is just preposterous.

Jose not the right man for the job?! Then who is? Guardiola? And you lot think you can get him? And he is willing to come here? And let’s say we did. You think he can turn us around ASAP in no time? And if he couldn’t, what next? Should we go for Avram Grant again? FSW?

Man City spending just like we do if not more they has more players at their peaks than us. Are they top of the table at the moment? Manure is sitting at middle of the table, looking shit this term aren’t they the team won the PL last season under SAF?

The amount of illiteracy of some members in here is just ridiculous!

Can you quote a single person saying Jose is not the right man for this job?

[borriske 330]

The amount ridiculity of some comments in this forum is just preposterous.

Jose not the right man for the job?! Then who is? Guardiola? And you lot think you can get him? And he is willing to come here? And let’s say we did. You think he can turn us around ASAP in no time? And if he couldn’t, what next? Should we go for Avram Grant again? FSW?

Man City spending just like we do if not more they has more players at their peaks than us. Are they top of the table at the moment? Manure is sitting at middle of the table, looking shit this term aren’t they the team won the PL last season under SAF?

True it's been a crazy season so far with us, both the manchester clubs and spurs dropping points left and right. And the two teams that are topping the table and are generally playing the best football atm are arsenal and liverpool (you know, the exact two teams that would never ever win anything again), with southampton (!) in third.

[Fernando 6,385]

Every manager born makes mistakes Jose just makes less ,still very early days , progress in Europe secured and well positioned in the league ,he needs to be the power at the club because our managers recently were always looking over their shoulders,this needs to be at least a four year plan and in four years time Chelsea will be a dominant power ,a lot of new supporters who have just jumped on a bandwagon have no patience. In a period of change and transition we are doing just fine and Mourinho is the long term manager for Chelsea .

It is very easy to manage a team and make the right decisions after a game and even then they will not have been seen to have been proven right or wrong .

I don't think this is a point.

For me it's the identity and philosophy the manager wants to bring to the club.

Mourinho when he came he said he was all about youth and playing good futbol. But after a couple of months I'm scratching my head.

I still think it's too soon, so is best to wait till the season finish.

But I will say this, if come the end of the season we are still a counter attacking team that can't do shit against team that park the bus then he is clearly the wrong man for the job. You can't be a passive team for like 60 minutes of the game and then pick it up when things go against you.

The identity that the club wants is that of an attacking team, and I'm sure Mourinho was well aware of that when he sign on.

[sutro 1,026]

What im afraid of is that Mourinho is trying to change all of our attacking players like hazard,Mata ,etc to his style of play.

You can say that they are not in form but is it realy that? Or is it the type of play they are forced to do?

Past years we bought players for a certain type of football,is Mourinho the coach for that?or will he force them to play to his style and by this stop their development to the players they could be

So many questions.......hopefully i got it wrong and we can see some sexy football soon

[borriske 330]

What im afraid of is that Mourinho is trying to change all of our attacking players like hazard,Mata ,etc to his style of play.

You can say that they are not in form but is it realy that? Or is it the type of play they are forced to do?

Past years we bought players for a certain type of football,is Mourinho the coach for that?or will he force them to play to his style and by this stop their development to the players they could be

So many questions.......hopefully i got it wrong and we can see some sexy football soon

Don't know if we're ever gonna see 'sexy' football with mourinho, but some effective and comfortable wins would be nice indeed .

[Rubber bullets 1,183]

I always thought that the appointment of Mourinho was a marriage of convenience rather then this divine plan from the stars as some people like to put it across.

The last couple of years we have been buying players intended to mold us into a team suited for playing a more attacking style of football. And if reports are to believed (and it does seem true) that we were hell bent on appointing Guardiola and possible others like Klopp. When those failed and because Mourinho was the only one high profile manager that was going to be free in the summer that this reunion was made.

And as other members have said its showing in our performances,with some of the players we brought looking rather subdued and confused on what they are suppose to do,