Ramires

[CHOULO19 24,332]

It feels a bit tragic that we are not really exploiting the best of Ramires's abilities which is his powerful and driving run, breaking past the midfield and getting into the opposition penalty's box like we have seen him done before.

Your not going to get that with Frank next to him. Jose will never leave gaps between his midfield and back four and Frank..well, he thinks of himself as a forward.

[Phil Driver 503]

I really hope Ramires as the holder is only cause Lamps was his partner. He shouldn't be the holder when paired up with any of th other mids.

You are confusing his role with that of Mikel who does just stand in the same place almost literally,Ramires and Lampard do interchange and both have the ability to do that ,where as with Mikel as a partner we are predictable and static and easy to pick up as Mikel is static and slow and benched when are we all going to accept that after the Old Trafford selection Ramires and Lampard ARE first choice?

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

I really hope Ramires as the holder is only cause Lamps was his partner. He shouldn't be the holder when paired up with any of th other mids.

You are confusing his role with that of Mikel who does just stand in the same place almost literally,Ramires and Lampard do interchange and both have the ability to do that ,where as with Mikel as a partner we are predictable and static and easy to pick up as Mikel is static and slow and benched when are we all going to accept that after the Old Trafford selection Ramires and Lampard ARE first choice?

Ramires runs more than Mikel sure, but he's clearly been very restricted so far. And no Lamps and Ramires don't take turns, it's been only Lamps that's been getting forward and Ramires staying back ala Mikel.

[Muzchap 8,966]

I think the criticism of Ramires has been a little unfounded.

From my recollections against Utd and generally over the past few seasons, our players in front of the guy with possession don't always make it easy - they are either marked or static... Generally making playing the ball forward that bit more ambitious.

The stats don't lie - he has gone from one of the worst passers to the best (in front of Toure) - Jose is certainly helping him.

We do need more movement up front though, we are still easily marked out of a game and then we try all the flicks and quick touches that break down - resulting in the opposition attacking. I guess we need some maturity in our play.

I said this in the pre-season thread, it will take a few seasons for Jose to get this drilled into the players, so it's second nature - I just hope you guys can be as patient as I will be to see it happen...

[Phil Driver 503]

Ramires runs more than Mikel sure, but he's clearly been very restricted so far. And no Lamps and Ramires don't take turns, it's been only Lamps that's been getting forward and Ramires staying back ala Mikel.

Nobody can stay back aka Mikel he is unique at that for sure and yes Ramires is more advanced he has even had a few shots at goal ,something you rarely see Mikel do .

And when Ramires is passed trying to intercept higher up the pitch he has the speed to recover a goal side position ,Mikel does not ,this is why he cant squeeze the play ,once he is beaten he is dead,that is why he hangs so deep ,often holding hands with JT & co ,Ramires does not do this and you may (or may not have noticed?) JT and Cahill playing higher up the pitch and us closing down higher up the pitch trying to win posession,instead of plugging Mikel self made gaps.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

Ramires runs more than Mikel sure, but he's clearly been very restricted so far. And no Lamps and Ramires don't take turns, it's been only Lamps that's been getting forward and Ramires staying back ala Mikel.

Nobody can stay back aka Mikel he is unique at that for sure and yes Ramires is more advanced he has even had a few shots at goal ,something you rarely see Mikel do .

And when Ramires is passed trying to intercept higher up the pitch he has the speed to recover a goal side position ,Mikel does not ,this is why he cant squeeze the play ,once he is beaten he is dead,that is why he hangs so deep ,often holding hands with JT & co ,Ramires does not do this and you may (or may not have noticed?) JT and Cahill playing higher up the pitch and us closing down higher up the pitch trying to win posession,instead of plugging Mikel self made gaps.

Again, I'm not comparing Mikel to Ramires. But rather their roles. Every player performs their role using their own abilities, so to discuss who runs more and what they do is pointless. The basic point to note is that Ramires has been the holder while Frank is the one getting forward more. Which is exactly what happens when Mikel is playing. Ramires is doing the Mikel role at the moment, simple. Not the exact same way as him, so don't bring up running around again, but it's the same role.

[Heisenberg 1,824]

Your not going to get that with Frank next to him. Jose will never leave gaps between his midfield and back four and Frank..well, he thinks of himself as a forward.

Frank is playing in a system where there is no place for him, you have to accept these runs or you put him on the bench.

[Phil Driver 503]

Yes I will bring up "running around" as you put it again . Because running power in that position is vital ,that is why Ramires is being playerd there,he is not playing aka Makelele as Mikel has attempted to ,Ramires can attempt to win the ball higher up the pitch and recover his position and I have seen him do this several times ,during a game you will have seen and will see Ramires further forward than Lampard on occasions ,this cant happen with Mikel as once beaten he is dead as he has no running power to recover his position .

Even at 35 Lampard has more running power,speed and stamina than Mikel ,hence they are our first choice pairing ,Van Ginkel maybe in the future but Mikel will never be under Jose ,for the above reasons.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Yes I will bring up "running around" as you put it again . Because running power in that position is vital ,that is why Ramires is being playerd there,he is not playing aka Makelele as Mikel has attempted to ,Ramires can attempt to win the ball higher up the pitch and recover his position and I have seen him do this several times ,during a game you will have seen and will see Ramires further forward than Lampard on occasions ,this cant happen with Mikel as once beaten he is dead as he has no running power to recover his position .

Even at 35 Lampard has more running power,speed and stamina than Mikel ,hence they are our first choice pairing ,Van Ginkel maybe in the future but Mikel will never be under Jose ,for the above reasons.

Yup spot on assessment there Phil... I see exactly the same as you during a match... I do think Van Ginkel has the attributes to succeed in this position, but will need blooding in...

Mikel is essentially lazy (or that's the appearance during a match) - if he ran like Ramires he would be starting.

I think that's what Jose is trying to say to the players (like Lambert at Villa) - I don't care who you are but you will give 100% for the 90 minutes or you ain't stepping on the pitch...

[themightyblue 443]

The sad thing is when he has a good game this thread is quiet, but with one bad game the thread becomes active

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Frank is playing in a system where there is no place for him, you have to accept these runs or you put him on the bench.

I choose to put him on the bench in the big games and play him against smaller teams because his ability to score is incredibly effective against them.

[Heisenberg 1,824]

I choose to put him on the bench in the big games and play him against smaller teams because his ability to score is incredibly effective against them.

I agree, he should start against the likes of Tottenham and Arsenal, but not against Munich tomorrow.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Yes I will bring up "running around" as you put it again . Because running power in that position is vital ,that is why Ramires is being playerd there,he is not playing aka Makelele as Mikel has attempted to ,Ramires can attempt to win the ball higher up the pitch and recover his position and I have seen him do this several times ,during a game you will have seen and will see Ramires further forward than Lampard on occasions ,this cant happen with Mikel as once beaten he is dead as he has no running power to recover his position .

Except reality does not agree with your theory. Action maps for Ramires against Hull then United:

As opposed to two random action maps for Mikel where he played 90 mins as well against Sunderland and Liverpool:

As you can clearly see that they are both playing at approximately the same depth both against the strong team where we had to defend (utd and liverpool) and the weaker team where we were on the front foot. So no, Ramires is NOT playing more advanced than Mikel usually does. In fact, if there is any major difference to take from these examples it is that, contrary to popular belief, Mikel seems to be moving more around the pitch while Ramires looks too restricted in that central area and around the halfway circle.

Ramires has also not made any interceptions in either game so again, no, he's not winning the ball further up the field, while Mikel had 3 interceptions vs Liverpool and one vs Sunderland. If you want to compare passing, Ramires has had an average pass length of 17m, exactly the same as Mikel had last season with 41.4% of Ramires' passes were backwards while Mikel had 35% backwards last season.

Ramires has been playing the holding role this season and he's been trying to do it exactly like Mikel has been doing it for years because that is how a holding midfielder plays. He did well against Hull and Villa but could not do the same against united under more pressure.

[Stats 7,059]

I agree, he should start against the likes of Tottenham and Arsenal, but not against Munich tomorrow.

I think Choulo means mid-table and lower by bench him in the big games. Not start him against teams like Spurs and Arsena;.

[YouNameIt 1,511]

Thing with Ramires is, he shouldnt play alongside Lampard. That basically stops his game, he doesnt/cant go forward as much then.

Essien+Lampard

Essien+Ramires

Ramires+MvG

etc...

[Heisenberg 1,824]

I think Choulo means mid-table and lower by bench him in the big games. Not start him against teams like Spurs and Arsena;.

I think both you and Choulo did not understand my troll toward Arsenal and Tottenham, because I see them as small mid-table teams.I've over-hyped your intelligence, sorry

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

Yes I will bring up "running around" as you put it again . Because running power in that position is vital ,that is why Ramires is being playerd there,he is not playing aka Makelele as Mikel has attempted to ,Ramires can attempt to win the ball higher up the pitch and recover his position and I have seen him do this several times ,during a game you will have seen and will see Ramires further forward than Lampard on occasions ,this cant happen with Mikel as once beaten he is dead as he has no running power to recover his position .

Even at 35 Lampard has more running power,speed and stamina than Mikel ,hence they are our first choice pairing ,Van Ginkel maybe in the future but Mikel will never be under Jose ,for the above reasons.

Well you clearly don't understand. Not sure why you keep bringing up Mikel when I'm specifically just talking about Ramires and the role he's given. Imo this role does not suit his strengths. That's really my only point. He's playing like a holder, and he shouldn't imo.

[Phil Driver 503]

All good views chaps ,but I will sleep well knowing my view is shared by the special one .

You can call me the special poster if you wish .

And I am very happy that the happy one is back ,because he is getting it RIGHT .

I can see these maps are appearing again ,but I fail to see that Mikel has any action areas tbh

He is as active where he is ,ON THE BENCH .