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I think we aren't as far off as people are making. 

Most of us here are emotional wrecks because we love the club so much. But it really isn't as dire (outside of the results). 

We are at the tipping point IMO, where things start falling where they should. It isn't a case of changing 50% of it all. It is about tweaking and fine tuning. We won't be winning it all, but this side is a few tweaks and some consistency away from challenging for top 4-6. 

TBH - People complaining about not getting Felix and Dusan are the same ones that didn't want them before the season started. It isn't a squad/player problem. We can score goals - just like any other team can. Brighton don't have a "proven" goalscorer, and neither do plenty of other teams, so the excuse is just bollocks. 

We lack consistency and confidence. Poch needs to set up an attacking side and let the cards play out how they may.

Edited by Thor
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  On 25/09/2023 at 01:01, Superblue said:

It's easy to forget how much of a banter club Arsenal were for the first 12-18 months under Arteta, and in fairness to the higher ups there, they held on to their beliefs and are in a much better position now as a result.

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It's also easy to forget that Arsenal didn't spend 200+ million on their midfield whilst they were in that rebuilding phase. 

If we didn't have Caicedo, Enzo and these high priced signings, I wouldn't mind 12-18 months of rebuilding and I'm sure the manager in charge would be given time for that rebuild to happen but the problem is, when you go to the market and invest heavily, every fan and pundit out there expects immediate results. 

 

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  On 25/09/2023 at 08:24, Reddish-Blue said:

It's also easy to forget that Arsenal didn't spend 200+ million on their midfield whilst they were in that rebuilding phase. 

If we didn't have Caicedo, Enzo and these high priced signings, I wouldn't mind 12-18 months of rebuilding and I'm sure the manager in charge would be given time for that rebuild to happen but the problem is, when you go to the market and invest heavily, every fan and pundit out there expects immediate results. 

 

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Aye I always find Arsenal as an extremely poor example for this. Or for why we should give managers such as Lampard or Potter time. They are always the go to example. 

They are a shite example for what we are going through just now because firstly, they weren’t a team that been in 6 major cup finals in nearly 3 seasons (or a team that had won 20 or 21 trophies in the last 20 years) before they went the way they did and secondly, they didn’t spend £1 billion on players in 3 transfer windows. Nobody has spent that much £ so quickly and turned out as awful. Ever. Bar us - so we are first for that.

 

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  On 25/09/2023 at 00:26, Thor said:

I think we aren't as far off as people are making. 

Most of us here are emotional wrecks because we love the club so much. But it really isn't as dire (outside of the results). 

We are at the tipping point IMO, where things start falling where they should. It isn't a case of changing 50% of it all. It is about tweaking and fine tuning. We won't be winning it all, but this side is a few tweaks and some consistency away from challenging for top 4-6. 

TBH - People complaining about not getting Felix and Dusan are the same ones that didn't want them before the season started. It isn't a squad/player problem. We can score goals - just like any other team can. Brighton don't have a "proven" goalscorer, and neither do plenty of other teams, so the excuse is just bollocks. 

We lack consistency and confidence. Poch needs to set up an attacking side and let the cards play out how they may.

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I envy your optimism but I am afraid the absolute opposite is the case. From pre season on there were two scenarios possible:

The one where we hit the ground running, build up massive hype with this young team gaining confidence and growing as players and ending up challenging for top 4.

And then the one where we get tons of injuries, nothing clicks, everyone goes hiding in their shell, all the young players regressing, losing all confidence and ultimately their market value by immersing in their loser mentality. No leaders on or off the pitch, least in the directors box, everyone is clueless , blaming each other, complete disarray and we end up fighting relegation.

Unfortunately the latter scenario is the one unfolding. Sure we could still get lucky, our two only genuine U38 world class players RJ and Nkunku come back fully fit, take responsibility and drag us out of the swamp. but if they don’t, if they - god forbid -end up perma wrecked, there is a real chance this goes further south from here.

There is a sizeable probability this entire 1bn generation of youth goes completely down the drain. We bought them all on potential, not ability. They were always only gonna fulfill that potential in a well run club and squad with a competent manager and leading figures to mould them. Not all by themselves among other prospects on a ship without captain or direction. We might very well be finished as a top club for the rest of the decade. I am not trying to be alarmist here but accepting this possible reality will stop a lot of hurt.

it might be tempting but anyone who thinks this is just a blip and everything will be fine in a few weeks is deluding themselves. What we see on the pitch is only the tip of the iceberg. Everything points to there being even greater turmoil behind the scenes. 

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The run of games coming up are an absolute gauntlet which will only compound the issue(s) further, we really needed to do a United here and squeeze the points out somehow like they are, albeit from dodgy referee calls mainly, irrespective it's a daunting time for Poch and I can't help but look at how 180 degrees we looked in preseason.. Mentality was there and pressing every single ball.

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We all agree Poch is way better coach than Lampard.

Lamps got top4 in 19/20 season with based on minutes they played this lineup:

Kepa 24

Azpi 29

Chris 23

Zouma 24

Alonso 28

Jorginho 27

Kovacic 25

Mount 20

Pulisic 20

Willian 30

Abraham 21

A lot of minutes also for very young players like James 19, Tomori 21, CHO 18. But he also used some experienced players like Kante, Rudiger, Giroud.

We still have now Silva, Chilwell, Sterling for experienced players so not sure that can be used as main reason why we are so bad now.

There are probably couple of reasons. I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa...

We are very solid defensively now, Lamps team was conceding a lot of goals. The main difference is scoring goals. That team scored 69 league goals, this one if continue like this will be around 35 goals.

Abraham scored 15 league goals, Willian and Pulisic 9, Giroud 8 and Mount 7. This is top5 goalscorers that season with 48 goals. Our whole squad cannot score that per season now.

Question is why Jackson, Sterling, Mudryk... cannot do that? If Nkunku is fit and Jackson is not horrible in front of the goal we would have different conversation now.

Really a couple of small details... Enzo scores penalty and WH loss is a win... Yesterday on 0:0 Jackson and Sterling missed one on one. Against Bournemouth we hit the post twice. Again Sterling and Jackson.

Nottingham again unreal miss from Jackson. We beat Luton, Liverpool is fair result. But from WH, AV, NF and Bournemouth instead of 12 points we got 1. I just said why, couple of small details. 

We have same expected goals as Spurs. But difference is they score we do not. 

Like I said Nkunku injury was big blow, Jackson conversation rate is horrible and not having another experienced striker was mistake. Sterling also should have scored more. Even Chilwell had 2 golden chances.

Fans always put too much onto results but bigger picture is much more positive.

Luton game aside we scored 2 goals in 5 games and have around 15 big chances missed. When analyzing our results we really should not look further than that.

 

 

Edited by NikkiCFC
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  On 25/09/2023 at 14:12, NikkiCFC said:

There are probably couple of reasons. I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa...

 

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Truth is, people are never happy and while some of those players were frustrating to watch, Jorginho was one dimensional, yet quality passer, Willian output was better, than anyone we've got later and only dropped off at the very end, Alonso was universally hated, but so far even his doubtful quality wasn't matched here. People on this board bashing every player, but it doesn't mean they are suddenly Championship quality. Actually, it only happened when a wish of big lot of our fanbase came true, everyone was sold and we have gotten actual non-PL level squad.

But the important thing is Tammy, Zouma, Mount or Pulisic had season of their life back then and the important question is how came? Was it just luck, or something else?

Giroud was essential when we were struggling in the front line and I'll say it again, it was way too optimistic to let him go. Fabregas situation all over again. Still, that squad was, well, squad. Are we actually balanced and well cooperating team now, I can't say yet.

Edited by Vegetable
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  On 25/09/2023 at 13:07, MoroccanBlue said:

Think he will be gone in January. No way he finds a way to get through the Oct-Dec period unscathed. 

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this is not like lampard/tuchel/potter. if he ditches this conservative approach, there is a team there which can still rescue this season.

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  On 25/09/2023 at 11:57, Magic Lamps said:

We bought them all on potential, not ability. They were always only gonna fulfill that potential in a well run club and squad with a competent manager and leading figures to mould them.

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This is a pretty non-debatable statement tbh. Young players demand an already built team to develop to their potential.
I'd add leaders... we are also missing players with a strong competitive streak who would fight nonstop.

  On 25/09/2023 at 14:12, NikkiCFC said:

I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa

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As quoted from the post above, there is a clear confusion here around current ability vs potential ability. They are NOT the same thing. Real life is not Football Manager -- the most unrealistic aspect of FM is regarding how easy and quick young players develop.

Personally I think one very easy way to assess players is merely see where they where, and where they went after their stint with us. With the exception of Zouma, they were all better (Willian just got old), yeah. Kepa is a tossup. This removes some of our personal bias.

Alonso is a funny one; I was one of the few praising his *game winning* ability; players who can score goals need to be praised. Very few players are capable of doing that, so they need to be valued.
Azpi (for Aleti) just had a strong game against Real yesterday... 🤷‍♂️

Edited by robsblubot
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  On 25/09/2023 at 15:57, robsblubot said:

 

As quoted from the post above, there is a clear confusion here around current ability vs potential ability. They are NOT the same thing. Real life is not Football Manager -- the most unrealistic aspect of FM is regarding how easy and quick young players develop.

Personally I think one very easy way to assess players is merely see where they where, and where they went after their stint with us. With the exception of Zouma, they were all better (Willian just got old), yeah. Kepa is a tossup. This removes some of our personal bias.

Alonso is a funny one; I was one of the few praising his *game winning* ability; players who can score goals need to be praised. Very few players are capable of doing that, so they need to be valued.
Azpi (for Aleti) just had a strong game against Real yesterday... 🤷‍♂️

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Would prefer if you answer actual point of my post but ok. That is like me only quoting your last sentence and telling you Azpi played only 25mins last night.

I always liked Kepa, Alonso, Jorginho btw... And who were better? Willian at Arsenal? Alonso? Jorginho barely plays... They all gave us their best years. After they went downhill...  Just like Mount and Havertz for us were 5 or 6/10 and now they are even lower.

Lampard also put 5,6 very young and not experienced players. Mount, Abraham, Tomori, James all came from Championship.

We are compering 30yo Willian of that season and current Sterling 28 who was always more reliable goalscorer.

How many people would take Abraham back?

We are 14th with 5 points after 6 rounds. We would be 2nd with 16 if Enzo hit his pen, and Jackson and Sterling are on 50% conversation rate which is nothing special. Tammy was hitting goals, Jackson is failing. Nothing deeper.

Lampard was not let down by his attackers unlike Poch. Only difference. This is our state. Top5 would be amazing. I feel talk about Sanchez, Disasi, Gallagher, Caicedo, Colwill, Poch, formation is unnecessary and not where any problem is.

 

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  On 25/09/2023 at 16:39, NikkiCFC said:

Would prefer if you answer actual point of my post but ok. That is like me only quoting your last sentence and telling you Azpi played only 25mins last night.

I always liked Kepa, Alonso, Jorginho btw... And who were better? Willian at Arsenal? Alonso? Jorginho barely plays... They all gave us their best years. After they went downhill...  Just like Mount and Havertz for us were 5 or 6/10 and now they are even lower.

Lampard also put 5,6 very young and not experienced players. Mount, Abraham, Tomori, James all came from Championship.

We are compering 30yo Willian of that season and current Sterling 28 who was always more reliable goalscorer.

How many people would take Abraham back?

We are 14th with 5 points after 6 rounds. We would be 2nd with 16 if Enzo hit his pen, and Jackson and Sterling are on 50% conversation rate which is nothing special. Tammy was hitting goals, Jackson is failing. Nothing deeper.

Lampard was not let down by his attackers unlike Poch. Only difference. This is our state. Top5 would be amazing. I feel talk about Sanchez, Disasi, Gallagher, Caicedo, Colwill, Poch, formation is unnecessary and not where any problem is.

 

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It's fair to just point out that Azpi played 25 min; and I would point out that his presence in our children's squad alone, plus perhaps coming on after Gusto got a red yesterday might have made a difference. 🤷‍♂️

Please ignore details, that's my point: just take where the players play. Players who are at top clubs under big wages earned that. It's a very competitive market... almost auction-like. That helps removing bias.

It's hard for me to respond to your post because I don't agree a whole lot with some of the premisses there; nor do I think speaking about Pochettino is very important right now. Lampard's career speaks for itself.

For example, statements like, "We are very solid defensively now" make no sense to me in a fluid sport like football. If that's truly the case for us, that D and A are completely different things, then indeed we are light years from City and Arsenal.

There is no doubt in my mind that Tammy is a better striker than Jackson right now. Would I want Tammy back? if you asked me before the window, nope lets go for better targets (multiple! better targets), like Jackson himself and 1-2 more experienced players for rotation/support.
Right now, hell yeah Tammy would definitely help esp considering the absurd lack of options up front.

We miss A LOT of the players who left. I totally understand that some could not be retained--forced exit and all that, so that's besides the point. I still think the club, esp new ownership isn't blameless for that.

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  On 25/09/2023 at 15:26, Strike said:

this is not like lampard/tuchel/potter. if he ditches this conservative approach, there is a team there which can still rescue this season.

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Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

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  On 25/09/2023 at 17:17, MoroccanBlue said:

Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

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I don't disagree that it's a potential outcome.

I think you got cause and consequence inverted there; Poch does not play the way he plays because he wants to, but because he believes he has to. Same way a new manager would arrive, take one look at this pitiful squad lacking in all areas, full of children and do exactly the same thing.

For example, I think Chilwell does not play because of Mudryk.

Edited by robsblubot
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