Super Frank Thread

[Tomo 21,733]

The most damming thing of all is things look broken structurally. The reason I defended him last season is because it was obvious to anyone with eyes and (even basic) knowledge of underlying metrics that the defense would improve once we got better players in and it has. However the current problem's with our attacking play are so alarming I genuinely don't think a prime Pele would sort us out.

This month has been a huge fall from grace, not quite unprecedented but we've gone from Lampard finally looking like he was cracking the consistency issues to looking totally lost, and whenever that type of "snap" happens it usually only ends one way unfortunately.

[ZaynChelsea 423]

I‘d still like to introduce the name Hasenhüttl again. He is a great coach, one of the best in the PL imo and he has a proven track record of developing youngsters

[Jase 43,479]

21 minutes ago, Milan said:

Ouch.

Results since Lampard said he wants to extend his contract...

W 3-1 Leeds
D 1-1 Krasnodar
L 0-1 Everton
L 1-2 Wolves
W 3-0 West Ham
L 1-3 Arsenal
D 1-1 Aston Villa

[killer1257 3,282]

lol Not even going to go deep into this. What we're seeing out there is clearly whatever Lampard has been working with the players. He's the one training the players and the players are the ones executing whatever that is asked of them. If the players aren't doing things right, then it's Lampard's job to set them straight and guide them. But he isn't. You're lying if you don't think our football now is just all about spamming crosses. 

I was just thinking. We used to have Cesc, Matic and Oscar. In my opinion, Oscar was a low level player that I actually scouted for a while before he came to us because I read that he was a Brazilian Modric. I was a huge fan of Spurs Modric and knew he was the real deal. So I watched him and came to the conclusion that Oscar was nothing like Modric and he was garbage [emoji23]. So, I really think Oscar was a poor player that could press and shoot well and nothing more. Nothing special to me, especially because I wanted a Modric [emoji24]. I would say that Mount is worse than Oscar. Stats probably say the same.

Cesc is a one of a kind and all time PL legend. In my opinion, he has more creativity and passing technique than kante, Mount, Kovacic and Kai combined. This is how much I rated Cesc.

Matic had his flaws, but was great overall. Kante is much better though.

Overall, a midfield out of matic cesc and oscar had more balance than our current midfield. It actually had everything. Size, world class passing abilities because of Cesc and a goalscorer in Oscar, even though he was a bad player.
Even they had periods when Cesc did not perform well and played bad under Mou and under Conte(cesc and Matic together because Conte sold Oscar because he saw the light). Our current midfield does not have either size and does definitely not have the same technique and creativity than our old midfield.

This might be a mixture between lack of individual quality and bad coaching or just lack of individual quality. We played garbage under Mou, Conte and Sarri. But I remember teams like prime Barcelona changed managers frequently and still won titles because of their individual quality, regardless how shit the coaches were. When Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez etc regressed, Barcelona was over. Individual quality matters a lot. You will not make an average team turn into prime Barcelona. Not going to happen, regardless who the coach is.



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[killer1257 3,282]

I‘d still like to introduce the name Hasenhüttl again. He is a great coach, one of the best in the PL imo and he has a proven track record of developing youngsters

I think he might be my favorite right now. Also PL proven

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[Tomo 21,733]

Would prefer him to Pochettino 100/100.

[Jase 43,479]

16 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

But I remember teams like prime Barcelona changed managers frequently and still won titles because of their individual quality, regardless how shit the coaches were. When Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez etc regressed, Barcelona was over. Individual quality matters a lot. You will not make an average team turn into prime Barcelona. Not going to happen, regardless who the coach is.

If individual quality really matters, then Barcelona shouldn’t be in a bad state right now given they have bought quality players in recent years. The problem with Barcelona is they slowly lost their way after Guardiola left. They started to just buy whatever top players out there without any consideration of whether they actually fit into a cohesive system and they also stopped promoting youth players from their famed academy. There is still 1 or 2 but not many at all as in the past. 

[killer1257 3,282]

If individual quality really matters, then Barcelona shouldn’t be in a bad state right now given they have bought quality players in recent years. The problem with Barcelona is they slowly lost their way after Guardiola left. They started to just buy whatever top players out there without any consideration of whether they actually fit into a cohesive system and they also stopped promoting youth players from their famed academy. There is still 1 or 2 but not many at all as in the past. 

It depends. Prime Suarez is much better than Griezmann overall in my opinion. I think Suarez is top 3 all time goal scorer at Barcelona and it did not take him that much time to do become top 3 at the list.

Iniesta in his prime is better than Coutinho, regardless what position we are talking about. Coutinho also struggled at Bayern.

So, yes Barcelona's invesments were mostly bad because they did not fit in their philosophy, but still the gap between Iniesta and Coutinho is huge or the gap between prime Suarez and Griezmann.

Barcelona also won the CL with Luis Enrique, who I don't rate at all. 3 years after Pep. They won the La Liga title with Valverde, who was garbage.

Like I said before, I think that Cesc, Matic and Oscar is better than Kante, Mount and Kai. Just the balance and the individual quality of our former midfield makes me think that our current midfield does not have the potential to play world class football because skill wise, we are worse than our old midfield.






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[Jase 43,479]

Might have said it here already (or it was probably somewhere else) but if I got my math right, Lampard is the first manager since Mourinho 1.0 to have been able to spend as much as he did in the summer and unlike some of the recent managers, he even got to pick the players he wanted and got them. So really, there should not be any excuse for why we shouldn’t be doing better than we are right now. We might not be the finished article yet but some of the tactical decisions, management and playing style from Lampard have not inspired confidence to put it kindly.

On another point, you can really see how the English media treat an English manager vs a non-English manager. Solskjaer is probably not a top level manager but the guy gets panned every time after United lose a game. Pundits always jump on his back, journalists would write like 100 articles on why Solskjaer is bad etc. But with Lampard? Nothing much has really been said. No one is calling for his head like the same people do with Solskjaer and any pieces written on Lampard have basically been along the lines “things aren’t going well right now but Lampard must get it right soon”. Both are similar - lucky to get the top job, have spent lots of money, have been at the club for at least 1.5 years now and have experienced similar issues - but one gets worse treatment than the other.

Am not one to call for the manager to get sacked unless things get really bad or things reach the point where the manager doesn’t inspire confidence anymore, but Lampard would have likely been sacked by now if it was 10 years ago. Other managers have probably been sacked by Roman for less but Lampard is still here. Much like how he got the job, I think Lampard will remain as manager by default because there aren’t necessarily better options out there and how silly the league table looks right now (trying to see from the club’s POV but whether right or wrong is another debate). Moreover, if the board didn’t sack Sarri 2 years ago despite all the bad results and fans unrest, then I don’t think the club will pull the trigger on Lampard (yet maybe).

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, killer1257 said:

It depends. Prime Suarez is much better than Griezmann overall in my opinion. I think Suarez is top 3 all time goal scorer at Barcelona and it did not take him that much time to do become top 3 at the list.

Iniesta in his prime is better than Coutinho, regardless what position we are talking about. Coutinho also struggled at Bayern.

So, yes Barcelona's invesments were mostly bad because they did not fit in their philosophy, but still the gap between Iniesta and Coutinho is huge or the gap between prime Suarez and Griezmann.

Barcelona also won the CL with Luis Enrique, who I don't rate at all. 3 years after Pep. They won the La Liga title with Valverde, who was garbage.

IIRC, Enrique almost got sacked at one point midway through a season but then somehow to right the ship and won the treble that season. Barcelona were still largely okay in terms of winning trophies under Enrique but the rot started after Guardiola and it just blew up completely last season. 

And yes, Iniesta and Suarez may be better than Coutinho and Griezmann but the latter two are still quality as individual players. The problem is Barcelona bought them without having any idea how to fit them into a cohesive system. That wasn’t the case with Iniesta and Suarez. They fitted in well with their 4-3-3. 

[whats happening 1,533]

1 hour ago, killer1257 said:

Omg, not that guy.

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why not. last time barcelona was any good was with him. even with spain he dominates. messi rates him highly.

if not him then nagelsmann.

 

anyways, lampard will not get sacked anytime soon so this is useless to talk about now.

[killer1257 3,282]

Might have said it here already (or it was probably somewhere else) but if I got my math right, Lampard is the first manager since Mourinho 1.0 to have been able to spend as much as he did in the summer and unlike some of the recent managers, he even got to pick the players he wanted and got them. So really, there should not be any excuse for why we shouldn’t be doing better than we are right now. We might not be the finished article yet but some of the tactical decisions, management and playing style from Lampard have not inspired confidence to put it kindly.
On another point, you can really see how the English media treat an English manager vs a non-English manager. Solskjaer is probably not a top level manager but the guy gets panned every time after United lose a game. Pundits always jump on his back, journalists would write like 100 articles on why Solskjaer is bad etc. But with Lampard? Nothing much has really been said. No one is calling for his head like the same people do with Solskjaer and any pieces written on Lampard have basically been along the lines “things aren’t going well right now but Lampard must get it right soon”. Both are similar - lucky to get the top job, have spent lots of money, have been at the club for at least 1.5 years now and have experienced similar issues - but one gets worse treatment than the other.
Am not one to call for the manager to get sacked unless things get really bad or things reach the point where the manager doesn’t inspire confidence anymore, but Lampard would have likely been sacked by now if it was 10 years ago. Other managers have probably been sacked by Roman for less but Lampard is still here. Much like how he got the job, I think Lampard will remain as manager by default because there aren’t necessarily better options out there and how silly the league table looks right now (trying to see from the club’s POV but whether right or wrong is another debate). Moreover, if the board didn’t sack Sarri 2 years ago despite all the bad results and fans unrest, then I don’t think the club will pull the trigger on Lampard (yet maybe).

Does Ole really get that much stick from pundits? From the interviews I have seen from Neville, Roy Keane and Scholes, all the time they say give Ole time and sacking him would not do Man United any good because they sack managers all the time and nothing has changed. They give for instance the players the fault for lack of individual quality and they are former world class players. For instance, Pogba is hyped up as one of the greatest football players in the world right now and in my opinion, he is not that good. He has so many weaknesses, I could open an own thread about how many big weaknesses he has currently and why he is failing. Still to this day, he has not found the right position for himself and is complete rubbish tactically. He was training under Mourinho and after that spell, he was still rubbish tactically. How is another coach going to turn Pogba into a "real" world class player and a tactical solid player when Mou failed tool or other coaches have failed miserably? You could argue why did it work

You can argue that it is all the coaches fault, or you can argue that maybe Pogba is not good enough regardless who the coach is. You, as a coach can only give your players a certain amount of foundation. If the players fail at what you asked them to do, or just lack the quality of applying it, what is the coach supposed to do? No coach made Willian world class. No coach was able to turn Alonso into a defensive mastermind etc.

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[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Does Ole really get that much stick from pundits? From the interviews I have seen from Neville, Roy Keane and Scholes, all the time they say give Ole time and sacking him would not do Man United any good because they sack managers all the time and nothing has changed

You just answered your own question. You mentioned 3 former United players. Of course they wouldn’t criticize their mate. They would rather go after the easy target in Ed Woodward, who of course has been at fault too but yeah. Exclude those with allegiance to United and even Solskjaer, there are definitely a lot of people who give stick to Solskjaer.

6 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

They give for instance the players the fault for lack of individual quality and they are former world class players. For instance, Pogba is hyped up as one of the greatest football players in the world right now and in my opinion, he is not that good. He has so many weaknesses, I could open an own thread about how many big weaknesses he has currently and why he is failing. Still to this day, he has not found the right position for himself and is complete rubbish tactically. He was training under Mourinho and after that spell, he was still rubbish tactically. How is another coach going to turn Pogba into a "real" world class player and a tactical solid player when Mou failed tool or other coaches have failed miserably? You could argue why did it work

You can argue that it is all the coaches fault, or you can argue that maybe Pogba is not good enough regardless who the coach is. You, as a coach can only give your players a certain amount of foundation. If the players fail at what you asked them to do, or just lack the quality of applying it, what is the coach supposed to do? No coach made Willian world class. No coach was able to turn Alonso into a defensive mastermind etc.

So, is Solskjaer a good manager or bad manager? You can’t say he’s a shit manager and then criticize him for not improving players.

Anyway FGS, am not getting into a debate with you on this kind of topic again! 

[Jap Si. 50]

Frank nose that player not as good as him as player Frank get frustrated but he looks down at inferior player why him not make good manager 

[Jap Si. 50]

My English knot so good but I am loving fam and blud and bruv I am laughing you English are being so funny fam.

[DDA 9,691]

1 hour ago, Jap Si. said:

My English knot so good but I am loving fam and blud and bruv I am laughing you English are being so funny fam.

Even if it is a troll. 😂

[Magic Lamps 11,668]

Hasenhüttl is a very good coach, possibly the most talented in the league. Also great at developing young players. he prefers a 4-4-2 which is possible with our squad even though i do not see it as our best option.

[Magic Lamps 11,668]

4 minutes ago, Mana said:

Also Hasenhüttl gets to manage Werner again. He will let Werner play his natural position like he did back in RB Leipzig.

Hasenhüttls high line got him slaughtered last season vs Leicester and this season vs Spurs. Ppl on here would go on the fence if that happened to us. Hasenhüttl is such a high risk high reward coach, I am not quite sure he will make it at a top team where the pressure is on to perform day in day out. At Leipzig he struggled to overcome stubborn defenses all too often. Bayern was quite average during his time at RBL, yet he never came close to threatenign them. Pochettino at least ran us close when we walked the league.