Super Frank Thread

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, lucio said:

There’s something about extra time and penalty matches officially being listed as a draw but yeh they lost 

Pretty sure they would still be counted as wins. They just might have an asterisk beside it to indicate it's won in extra time or on penalties.

[Strike 7,474]

54 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

Feel that the league will settle by November-December with same top 2 and a biggish chasing pack

[0007 511]

16 hours ago, Henrique said:

I appreciate people trying to see positive things after a 0-0 against Sevilla, a game where the team for most part of the game had 40% of ball possession and where the GK was the best player. I bet those people believe in that theory: first you build a strong defense, then after that you can think about fixing the attacking approach. 

Reading Reddit its baffling the lack of ambition from some folks there: "0-0 is a fine result. Sevilla is a top team, they ended Bayern's 22 game win streak and until the weekend (when they had a man sent off in the first half) they hadn't lost since February, and they've played a number of good teams since then."

Sevilla ended last season in 4th in La Liga, and just look at their squad and the players they bought this season, but folks are happy with this kind of mediocre results, because you know, a club legend is the coach at moment. 

Absolutely spot on. Sevilla are a good team but we were the home side. And Sevilla is not  one of the top teams in Europe - this narrative is just another excuse.Not to mention the players we brought in in comparison to what transfers they made.

Also, you can't compare being 4th in Spain with being 4th in England. Our revenue is much bigger and our buyings say much about it. Winning EL is not a criteria either - we won it last year but we were inconsistent and definitely not top CL material. 

I love Frank  so much but his CV as a manager doesn't have anything to have us hope for an improvement and he is here as a manager,not as the legend he is as a player. 

[killer1257 3,282]

Absolutely spot on. Sevilla are a good team but we were the home side. And Sevilla is not  one of the top teams in Europe - this narrative is just another excuse.Not to mention the players we brought in in comparison to what transfers they made.
Also, you can't compare being 4th in Spain with being 4th in England. Our revenue is much bigger and our buyings say much about it. Winning EL is not a criteria either - we won it last year but we were inconsistent and definitely not top CL material. 
I love Frank  so much but his CV as a manager doesn't have anything to have us hope for an improvement and he is here as a manager,not as the legend he is as a player. 

Sevilla beat Wolves, United (3rd im England) and Inter Mailand. Sevilla also is a pressing machine. They are much better than TC give them credit for. I remember last year when we drew Valencia 2-2 and TC people went nuts, because they said Valencia are a garbage team and I thought to myself "WTF, Valencia lost 5 times in 5 years at home or something like that. They are one of the most dominant home teams in the world lol".

Since Corona, the home advantage is not that important no more. Every match feels the same.

And buying new players is good, but these players have to find rhythm and need time to adapt with the new team. Takes time.

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

[Tomo 21,751]

8 hours ago, lucio said:

There’s something about extra time and penalty matches officially being listed as a draw but yeh they lost 

Not with extra time but when it goes to penalty's the match is (rightly) classed as a draw. The shoot-out is a tie breaker.

[Jase 43,479]

What exactly is Frank Lampard's Chelsea? (note the 9th paragraph below...)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/10/23/exactly-frank-lampards-chelsea/

During the two and a bit seasons of Frank Lampard’s fledgling career as a manager there has been a prefix to the teams he has coached: first it was Frank Lampard’s Derby County and now, even despite the size and scale of the club, Frank Lampard’s Chelsea.

That owes much to the profile of one of the Premier League’s greatest players – except what is Frank Lampard’s Chelsea? For a club who have largely employed coaches with a clearly defined, if varying, approach and style of play, their former midfielder is yet to stamp a true identity on them as he prepares for Saturday's trip to Manchester United, his opponents for his first game in charge 14 months ago.

Maybe his apparent pragmatism is born of the knowledge that it is all well and good to attempt to lay down a philosophy but – at Chelsea above most clubs – there is only one true approach: to win. Even so the 42-year-old accepts that the question is a fair one.

“I do have a pretty clear picture but I’m not one to sit here and lay out all my plans,” Lampard said. 

“I find it’s always a tough question. It can sound brilliant, and sound like I’m finishing my Pro Licence [coaching badge] and putting in how I think my team should play. The reality of football is that it moves on a lot. Last season I think was very positive for us as a team because we had an identity of a team that worked very hard off the ball and created a lot of chances, tried to get higher up the pitch and made a lot of steps forward while also needing to make further steps. 

“This season, where we have new players who have come in, I definitely felt before the season there would be, not a levelling out process but a period where we had to work again and see the new players.

“The message cannot always be the same for players with different attributes. So that’s why I don’t want to commit to what would be my ideal philosophy in six months, a year’s time, two years’ time, because in real time you have to work with the players you have and just keep trying to improve.”

Nevertheless, a year before Carlo Ancelotti became Chelsea manager in 2009, Roman Abramovich confided in him that he had fallen out of love with the team because they did not “have a personality”. It may well be that the owner felt the same about Chelsea when it came to dismissing Sarri and eventually employing Lampard.

Lampard negotiated a difficult first campaign, with the transfer ban, impressively, but he also surely knows that on the back of such huge spending and apparent renewed enthusiasm from the Russian billionaire in the last window, expectation within the club has risen sharply. That applies not just to results but also to style of play and organisation, with murmurings from around Chelsea and those who know Abramovich in recent weeks over some of the poor defensive displays – as three goals were conceded away to West Bromwich Albion and at home to Southampton. It is not just the goals but the manner of them and the opposition.

In addition, the statistic that Chelsea have given away 63 goals in 43 league games under Lampard – the worst of any manager at the club – has not gone unnoticed even if, during the same period, only Manchester City have conceded fewer shots. 

Lampard has got his way in replacing the world’s most expensive goalkeeper, Kepa Arrizabalaga, who he inherited and who is out injured with a damaged shoulder for Saturday’s trip to Manchester United, with Edouard Mendy. But he is still searching for greater consistency in his team which should stem from a more settled defence, even if that appears dependent on 36-year-old Thiago Silva.

It is something Lampard needs to sort out quickly and especially in a season which can be looked at in two ways: the unpredictability means there are unlikely to be runaway leaders and ground is not being lost but, also, that there is an opportunity that can be exploited.

With Hakim Ziyech coming on during the midweek Champions League fixture against Sevilla, which ended in a disappointing draw but with the bonus of a clean sheet, it meant Chelsea had their six new signings on the pitch for the first time. Lampard’s shift of formation to a 4-2-3-1 from 4-3-3 appears more in an effort to fit players in rather than to implement a system that he believes in.

“I am seeing some signs [of improvement],” he said. “But I also know we have brought in six players who have come in to compete for our first XI … I knew this would be something that would take some time. We missed a pre-season – so our time now is real-life games which is not always great.”

That extends, Lampard said, to not being able to play 11 v 11 matches at times with the first-team squad in one Covid “bubble” and the under-23s, for example, in another. It means it is hard to “replicate” games in training. There will be sympathy from the Chelsea hierarchy over that, but there is also a growing sense that Lampard needs to stamp an identity on this richly assembled squad.

[Jase 43,479]

 

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

What was alarming for me and am a bit relieved its finally being mentioned now more regularly is people questioning or saying that Frank now has to find a solution for us leaking goals and cannot just blame individual errors because you can only excuse individual errors to a certain degree, if they keep happening as they have done here, it would indicate something deeper rooted. There was a lot of Chelsea need a keeper, Chelsea need a LB, Chelsea need a CB but now we've got all 3 who are big improvement son what we had so I think this season if that improvement cannot be clearly visible by the end of the season it will be a big big indication that its more to do with coaching that people originally would be willing to put it down to. 

I feel that his spell at Derby, I think which was spoken about more with positivity because he got them to the playoff final, was there when they shifted some higher earners, guys like Mount, Bogle, Tomori etc became part of the furniture for that season as well as reducing the age of their squad etc but their goal difference and the goals they conceded from set plays (he questioned his players on them in a game v Birmingham - https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/what-frank-lampard-said-derby-2780645 - note he says we are not the biggest team.... where have I heard that before, was it West Ham last season? and it was a bit of a recurring theme and again has been the same here) which seemed to be totally overlooked when he was linked with the job. It should of been a potential warning. I hoped somebody who's Derby team conceded 70 goals in 57 games in all competitions (1.22 per game) would manage to improve upon that with better players but I think looking back at it, a big deal here has been in game management, set plays and organisation it has been alarming. I mean we've had some bad spells here and looked poor defensively with other managers but FL's goals against record is the worst of any Chelsea manager in the Abramovich era which says a lot. I mean if Sarri had the 3rd best defence in the PL behind Liverpool and City 2 seasons ago although at times we weren't particularly too solid, it would indicate that for Frank that's still not too bad a platform to start with. Even if it needed improved upon. Its gotten worse for whatever reason - more for me coaching wise due to the structure, the organisation and the fact Frank is much more of a forward thinking manager (but so was Sarri) than the likes of a Conte or a Jose. 

I mean I get the quality difference would perhaps contribute a bit but even then look at Pep's first ever season as a manager with Barcelona B, 38 games, 41 goals conceded (1.08 per game). Then Zidane's record as his first ever managerial experience with Madrid's Castilla, 58 games, 57 goals conceded (0.98 per game). I think these things perhaps should of indicated a sign that these things can actually transmit over regardless of the level as its more to do with playing style or the tactical system or the coaches ideas as opposed to actual individuals making mistakes as we've probably seen with Frank so far here - although individuals have definitely contributed and these things do happen with players at some point as its impossible to play a perfect season, everyone makes a mistake. I know its maybe a bit unfair to pick them as comparisons as they've been successful in their careers but I look at them in the same mould as Lampard, a club legend who was given the job with 1 seasons of managerial experience. I don't think that's necessarily unfair. They've achieved more but I think you look at their records at Madrid and Barcelona defensively in terms of goals against and I think if Frank was given the same time as they are, his record will be a lot lot worse.

I know people will say Klopp also had a dodgy defence at Liverpool when he first came in but really bar Joe Gomez who has grown into a much better CB over time (signed the year Klopp was appointed but by Rodgers prior to his sacking in whenever it was), I don't think he had the luxury of having players that were at the level Zouma, Christensen and Rudiger were (excluded Tomori as he was back from loan). Even if they are seen as average or not good enough for title winning teams they guys for me, were certainly better than the likes of Sakho, Skrtl, Toure, Caulker, Lovren and Lucas who Klopp played as CB and Liverpool only conceded 50 goals in the PL that season. Even then the next season they conceded only 42 goals in the PL (we conceded 54 last season), with pretty much a similar selection bar Matip and Klavan signing for them and Toure and Sktrl being sold. So it is interesting people say Klopp needed time because he instantly had a better defensive record than Lampard when he took over at Liverpool although I do get it, Lampard is a lot more inexperienced and maybe will need to learn that but even Pep's first season at City they didn't concede as many as we did last season. Again I know they are top level coaches, who have coached for longer but they were the instant barometer in terms of look how long they guys took to get their defences to improve or to be successful. The successful part is true yes, they needed time but the defensive improvement I don't think its as valid as some make out. 

43 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

That is a good stat but again, I think here more so than ever, it is pretty irrelevant stat because people expect us to be successful with or without the kids unfortunately.

Yes it saves the club money, yes it looks good for us, its nice for us fans and the academy has long been overdue this sort of attention due to the guys like Mount, James, Abraham, Tomori, Gilmour, Hudson-Odoi getting a chance and being regulars but ultimately it means nothing if the club isn't' successful because that's the bar we have set in the last 20 years and that's how it will continue to be looked upon. It does give Frank a plus point but I think his spell isn't going to be remembered (whenever people reflect back on it in the future) on purely the fact he played the young guys, its going to be based on trophies won or lack of or competition for titles etc. The defensive record we have right now is probably more commonly thought of regarding Frank's spell here than the debuts he's given out from guys on the outside looking in. 

[bigbluewillie 1,930]

Something i've never thought of Lamps team identity and I have to agree when I think about it there isn't one.

I'm Lamps greatest luvvie, but now with the current situation i'm now 50/50 on his staying or getting sacked, my heart say's I want him to stay and turn things around, my head tells me this can't carry onlike this for much longer, he has to get this defensive sitation sorted out like post haste at least.

My love of Lampard as a player I now realise is overshadowing my opinion of him as a manager, how long do I give him? some say til November others say December, me I really hope he can turn things around and at the moment am prepared to give him the rest of the season to get at least some advancement but seeing how things go my opinion can change, then if that does happen then he has to win the EPL next season.

I have to admit sometimes when I see him on the touch line and things are going wrong he does appear to be forlorn expression, but I still think he has the tools to make things right....I really hope so.

KTBFFH

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

9 hours ago, bigbluewillie said:

Something i've never thought of Lamps team identity and I have to agree when I think about it there isn't one.

I'm Lamps greatest luvvie, but now with the current situation i'm now 50/50 on his staying or getting sacked, my heart say's I want him to stay and turn things around, my head tells me this can't carry onlike this for much longer, he has to get this defensive sitation sorted out like post haste at least.

My love of Lampard as a player I now realise is overshadowing my opinion of him as a manager, how long do I give him? some say til November others say December, me I really hope he can turn things around and at the moment am prepared to give him the rest of the season to get at least some advancement but seeing how things go my opinion can change, then if that does happen then he has to win the EPL next season.

I have to admit sometimes when I see him on the touch line and things are going wrong he does appear to be forlorn expression, but I still think he has the tools to make things right....I really hope so.

KTBFFH

It is a tough place to be. As many of us are/have been. You want these guys to be successful. Ex players as managers, regardless of your team or even if you have no interest in the PL you'd want to see Lampard doing well here or OGS doing well at United or in Serie A, Conte/Pirlo doing well with Juventus or Neil Lennon doing well at Celtic or whatever. Just because these guys have player legacies and you think doing bad doesn't just tarnish their managerial reputation but potentially their player legacies in a way (not directly but it probably does a wee bit) or you think it will, which is why you want them to do well because you go it would be a shame if that tainted fans opinions on him a bit. You are right though, a players career shouldn't be used to give them a bit of leeway as a manager but the romanticism to a degree, maybe sentimental side of it is a better term, especially with someone like Frank as it would be with JT or Petr or Didier or Ashley Cole, you want to lean that way more and more and give them the benefit of the doubt. But then you have to consider Villas-Boas was shot off after 9 months, Scolari after however long, Carlo sacked after finishing 2nd. Jose a year after winning a title. Conte after finishing 5th and winning a trophy. Sarri basically may as well have been after finishing 3rd and winning the Europa League. These are guys who had varied levels of success at other clubs and had good reputations also so it kind of takes you back down a bit. 

I think now a days in management at top clubs, 18 months minimum is the sort of time you should be giving these guys before judging them (that's 3 transfer windows realistically). I said last season that Frank had to get things sorted because he won't get too long if the teams still struggling with the basics because people expect teams to be able to defend in general be it free kicks, set pieces or from open play and be tough to play against because people would say that these are the basics in football. I mean if Burnley or someone like that who spend 150-200m less each summer window can do that with what you'd say are poorer/less innovative coaches, why can Chelsea not? How many times have we heard Roy Keane say about teams failing to do the basics? Or Jamie Carragher or Gary Neville? Not necessarily just us but other teams Even things like individuals closing the ball down a meter away from them as well as other things as a collective such as defending corners/freekicks and whatever else. I really don't think you have to be a coaching genius to make your team be hard to beat, I think you obviously get players who aren't in the same mould as the guys we had 10-15 years ago but I don't think its neccessarily something that you only need specific players for. 

I think if come December, things don't look good, the pressure will ramp up (although you can see there is more and more people in the media kind of asking the question how can Chelsea still be making the same mistakes they did last season).

[Atomiswave 6,117]

5 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

It is a tough place to be. As many of us are/have been. You want these guys to be successful. Ex players as managers, regardless of your team or even if you have no interest in the PL you'd want to see Lampard doing well here or OGS doing well at United or in Serie A Pirlo doing well with Juventus or Neil Lennon doing well at Celtic or whatever. Just because these guys have player legacies and you think doing bad doesn't just tarnish their managerial reputation but potentially their player legacies in a way (not directly but it probably does a wee bit).

I think now a days in management at top clubs, 18 months minimum is the sort of time you should be giving these guys before judging them (that's 3 transfer windows realistically). I said last season that Frank had to get things sorted because he won't get too long if the teams still struggling with the basics because people expect teams to be able to defend in general be it free kicks, set pieces or from open play and be tough to play against because people would say that these are the basics in football. I mean if Burnley or someone like that who spend 150-200m less each summer window can do that with what you'd say are poorer coaches, why can Chelsea not? How many times have we heard Roy Keane say about teams failing to do the basics? Not necessarily us but others. Even things like individuals closing the ball down a meter away from them as well as other things such as defending corners/freekicks and whatever else. I don't think you have to be a coaching genius to make your team be hard to beat. I think if come December, things don't look good, the pressure will ramp up (although you can see there is more and more people in the media kind of asking the question how can Chelsea still be making the same mistakes they did last season).

He is already under pressure imo, but you cant cut him off now, december will be a fair time to judge whether we are going forward or bust. Lets get the win today and build some steam.

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

Just now, Atomiswave said:

He is already under pressure imo, but you cant cut him off now, december will be a fair time to judge whether we are going forward or bust. Lets get the win today and build some steam.

I think he bought himself some time after the first 6 months of last season. Before the dip. I really do. And getting the chance to buy players this summer has obviously helped him to the point where he has put his own stamp on the squad a bit but as you've said we need to see where we are at in December. I don't think 18 months is unfair and most clubs now a days probably give that as a minimum time before changing unless its something drastically bad. 8 points in 5 games isn't good enough though and a win today regardless of it being United, is a must imo. 

[Atomiswave 6,117]

3 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I think he bought himself some time after the first 6 months of last season. Before the dip. I really do. And getting the chance to buy players this summer has obviously helped him to the point where he has put his own stamp on the squad a bit but as you've said we need to see where we are at in December. I don't think 18 months is unfair and most clubs now a days probably give that as a minimum time before changing unless its something drastically bad. 8 points in 5 games isn't good enough though and a win today regardless of it being United, is a must imo. 

Most def Mo, 18months is more than fair. Yup we have already blown pts that we really shouldnt but it is what it is, we need the win today, would set us well for games ahead....we need that winning menatlity up and running.

[whats happening 1,612]

i really hope someone will ask him about cho and kovacic. and why abraham over giroud...

[Atomiswave 6,117]

1 minute ago, whats happening said:

i really hope someone will ask him about cho and kovacic. and why abraham over giroud...

Giroud frozen out again and same with Kova