The Conte Thread

[manpe 10,861]

42 minutes ago, coolhead23 said:

No I'm not mixing it ... Idealistic talk??? Come on, mate!!! 

How I see it: There is a difference in mentality when it comes to the big/elite clubs and the others ... The others would be content with one title/trophy (if they win) and the rest they can consider as bonus but the Big/elite clubs dont stop at one or consider the second one a bonus. We are now in the elite class and we shouldnt stop at anything ... This is Chelsea we are talking about for whom success takes precedent over everything (we have sacked managers for not reaching to that highest levels without considering their reputations) so it's ingrained in the club and the players and obviously the fans. So if you say Arsenal wanted it more than I would surely say that we should have wanted it much more and I m sure that the club sees it the same. 

Without being harsh, human Psychology at times goes out of the window when you are getting paid 10x-15x more than the average human out there, they train you to be machines ... thats the reality in today's world. 

Anyways I m not denying completely what you mentioned but I feel we are drifting into another tangent ... as I mentioned in the other post it started as a small observation which I hope doesnt come back as an issue for us. Rest, I feel we had a brilliant season ... we just werent good on the last day and paid the price. 

 

P.S: @OhForAGreavsie, damn! Now I have to prove read my post twice to make sure it is correct

You use a lot of shoulds/woulds to paint an ideal picture that we as fans all expect. Yes what you say is true in theory, but it doesn't mean it was true on the day. Machines? Money can only motivate you so far. If only it worked like that, but they are not cyborgs and we see evidence of human psychological influences in top class football all the time. If not, then for example confidence would be a non-issue, yet it isn't. Goes out the window? You have a very skewed understanding of psychology if you think that money and training can turn people into mindless sacks of meat. It is no coincidence that top managers put a lot of emphasis on the psychological aspect of the game, our own Conte being a prime example. He was timid on the day like you mentioned, and that reflected in the team too. I stand by what I said - Arsenal wanted it more on the day, in fact I think they felt that they needed it, we merely wanted it.

[coolhead23 1,147]

5 minutes ago, manpe said:

You use a lot of shoulds/woulds to paint an ideal picture that we as fans all expect. Yes what you say is true in theory, but it doesn't mean it was true on the day. Machines? Money can only motivate you so far. If only it worked like that, but they are not cyborgs and we see evidence of human psychological influences in top class football all the time. If not, then for example confidence would be a non-issue, yet it isn't. Goes out the window? You have a very skewed understanding of psychology if you think that money and training can turn people into mindless sacks of meat. It is no coincidence that top managers put a lot of emphasis on the psychological aspect of the game, our own Conte being a prime example. He was timid on the day like you mentioned, and that reflected in the team too.

Thanks, Mate!!! 

[manpe 10,861]

Just now, coolhead23 said:

Thanks, Mate!!! 

For what?

[coolhead23 1,147]

Just now, manpe said:

For what?

For enlightening me and the feedback  

[manpe 10,861]

4 minutes ago, coolhead23 said:

For enlightening me and the feedback  

Oh, you're welcome. Though I'm not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but nevertheless I don't mind discussing such topics because psychology interests me quite a bit and for me it's interesting to observe Conte's subtle psychological methods.

[Tautvix 1,321]

1 hour ago, manpe said:

Yes, you are talking idealistic talk that you imagine would happen in a perfect world. Of course they will say that they want the double, do you imagine somebody saying the opposite? No doubt the players and the club wanted it, but they didn't want it as much as Arsenal simple as that. It was the same to them as winning the league to us. You are not taking into account human psychology, which can drift very far from said words. Like last season everybody was saying that they are fighting for Jose, the club and other bullshit they learned from their PR lessons, but the reality was visibly different.

This is why we failed so much last season, isn't it? After watching a final I must say I am worried. It's clear that Arsenal wanted it more but it says a lot about our team. After winning the title in 14/15 they stopped playing for 1 year because they were champions. After winning the title this year FA was just a 'bonus'. Let's see what happens next season, I am curious but worried.

[coolhead23 1,147]

6 minutes ago, manpe said:

Oh, you're welcome. Though I'm not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but nevertheless I don't mind discussing such topics because psychology interests me quite a bit.

I got that (the psychology piece) ... I just wanted to end this because I feel we were drifting big time ... And my view on things are different than others and then it doesnt become a debate but more of an argument. So not being sarcastic at all ... Peace

 

P.S. I would love to indulge in the psychology talks because u get to learn a lot but my view on football and psychology is more from a business preservative where money takes precedent over everything.  Maybe one day, would love to hear your thoughts ... 

[manpe 10,861]

2 minutes ago, Tautvix said:

This is why we failed so much last season, isn't it? After watching a final I must say I am worried. It's clear that Arsenal wanted it more but it says a lot about our team. After winning the title in 14/15 they stopped playing for 1 year because they were champions. After winning the title this year FA was just a 'bonus'. Let's see what happens next season, I am curious but worried.

I agree, your worries are justified because recent champions tend to do badly in the following season(s). Like weren't last 5 or so champion managers sacked the following season? This is why it is imperative we don't think everything is rosey in our garden, we need to improve ourselves with hungry players.

[manpe 10,861]

2 minutes ago, coolhead23 said:

I got that (the psychology piece) ... I just wanted to end this because I feel we were drifting big time ... And my view on things are different than others and then it doesnt become a debate but more of an argument. So not being sarcastic at all ... Peace

 

P.S. I would love to indulge in the psychology talks because u get to learn a lot but my view on football and psychology is more from a business preservative where money takes precedent over everything.  Maybe one day, would love to hear your thoughts ... 

No argument don't worry. I agree with the main point you were conveying, but we are talking about different things essentially. The main thing I disagree with you is the psychological side, the so-called business psychology is only a part of it, our rivals also have big financial motives so other important factors also come into play. 

[kellzfresh 7,229]

It's really easy to point at the last match and say we lost because of weak mentality, but it's to argue the opposite for many big matches this season:
Where we mentally weak when we survived City's offensive assault and rallied from being down 1-0 to winning 3-1?
Where we mentally weak when we recovered from letting Spurs equalize twice in the FA Cup semi final?
Where we mentally weak when we crushed Man U 4-0 and also against our club's most successful manager?
Where we mentally weak when we went down 1-0 to Spurs at home but ended up coming back to win 2-1?
Where we mentally weak in all those matches it took a late winner or defending a 1 goal lead for a long time to secure the 3 points?
Where we mentally weak when we destroyed Arsenal 3-1 after they destroyed us earlier in the season?
I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. We didn't lose that last match because of mentality imo. It was another example of us struggling against a big club that could press very effectively.
We just don't have the players to handle those situations consistently. Matic is too slow at making decisions. Moses is poor when he isn't given a ton of space. Alonso was unusually subpar against teams that press compared to what we've seen recently against smaller teams.

We got better in the second half not just because fabregas came on for the woeful Matic, but because arsenal got a little tired and couldn't press like in the first half.

I would have liked Conte to adjust his tactics against big teams to press back too against teams that press us, but he wants us to absorb pressure and punish them when they tire. There's nothing so bad about this, since Juventus uses the same tactics. But compared to Juventus who have dribbling energetic monsters as wingbacks, an impenetrable BBC backline, and an attacking player in mandzukic who can hold up the ball when Buffon clears the ball up field, we don't have players who can concentrate, absorb pressure, and have the holdup or passing quality to punish teams on the counter. 

If Conte is backed in the summer, he'll easily mould the team to Juventus like style. And we'll be dominant in big games once again imo.... 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Didn't know where to post this, but anyway:

 

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

We just have a breaking winning record season, only losing 7 out of 45+ games. All Chelsea fans need to do after the season finished? of course to pointed out how bad each one of them throughout the season, especially in those 7 matches.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

I made little analysis, let me know if you agree or not.

Once again I was left uninspired about 3 man defence after seeing Juve getting done by Real. 

I think we will need to switch to 4 defenders for CL.

Like everyone knows, we had biggest problems this season with crosses. And thats where 3:4:3 or 3:5:2 is very very bad (unless you control the game, another thing we are poor at against top teams). 

Now why is 3 man defence working in PL or Serie A is relatively simple to me. The fullbacks. There are not many teams here with actual quality fullbacks except for Spurs in PL and Napoli in Italy. Chelsea did struggle mainly against Spurs. We also played poorly against Arsenal with Bellering and OX going down on wings. Several other games, we conceded from crosses, but those teams are not as consistent down the flanks and we managed to overcome that.

Now in CL, there is major difference. You have top full backs in every team. Now just look at Carvajal and Marcelo. When those two break through middle (Alves and Sandro), they are left with waste of space to deliver the cross. And then its game over for Juve. Three goals yesterday came in similar fashion. If Juve decided to play 4:3:3, they would double mark Marcelo and Carvajal which might be game over for Real. Instead they opted for additional midfielder to control midfield, but then again their approach was to let Real the ball and defend in second half, a big big mistake from Allegri. Their key advantage turned into uselles. 

Chelsea aint any better at controling the midfield either, so we are pretty much in dark there too.

Marcelo, Alaba, Carvajal, Luis,...as soon they beat our Alonso or Moses, they are left with plenty of space to make good cross and then its not hard for striker to score. Despite juve (or us) have 3 CBS in penalty area, giving false sense of security, its actualy easier for striker to score because of the position of these CBs. Just look where was Bonucci (or even Barzagli) at second Ronaldo goal. Even if they had 3 CBs, Ronaldo found a space. Its what happens before. After fullbacks get space to cross, its already game over if cross is good and striker is efficient. However in 4 defence system, defending fullbacks stay back and limit space for opponent fullbacks or wingers. 3CBS however is very useful against attacks from centre, where we also have support of both midfielders. But that problem is simply solved by opponent by attacking from flanks.

Real was also playing like with two upfront and Isco as #10; meaning they didnt even have proper wingers, something Juve should take advantage of. But they just didnt. Sticking to 3 man defence eventualy killed them. 

As questioning this sounds, after we destroyed the league with 3:4:3, I think we need to change it either next season or season after. If Juve cant do it with BBB and Gigi, no one can. 

Perhaps the ONLY difference we have is that we actualy play 3:4:3, not 3:5:2 and thats good because we actualy have "wingers" unlike in 3:5:2 juve. When we attack Moses and Alonso provide width, Hazard and Pedro act as second strikers or playmakers. When we defend, Pedro and Hazard act as wingers tracking back while Moses and Alonso go deeper. However if we are caught on counter, Moses and Alonso are not in position and we are pretty much done. But even with 3:4:3 we concede alot of goals from flanks, meaning that even the advantage over 3:5:2 could turn useless, when we face top teams in CL. 

Perhaps if we perfect this system and get two brilliant wingbacks, it might work, but as soon as those two are beaten by opponent fullbacks, there will be always serious danger from crosses.

 

[Dahnald 256]

Am I the only one who already expected some new contract announcement for Conte by now? 

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

11 minutes ago, Dahnald said:

Am I the only one who already expected some new contract announcement for Conte by now? 

The impatience of some fans is frankly staggering it's just over a week since the cup final and there's talk about contract announcements and why haven't we signed this player or that. Football has changed so dramatically in the last 15 years the self entitlement of fans is awful the 365 days non stop analysis and fucking pointless and meaningless statistics. Passes completed even though they could be 70% back passes is the kind of bullshit today's fans love quoting.

[Leif 6,006]

well yeah, football changed so the fans adapted. clubs changed their goals so we changed our expectations and criteria.

[communicate 2,703]

19 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

I made little analysis, let me know if you agree or not.

Perhaps if we perfect this system and get two brilliant wingbacks, it might work, but as soon as those two are beaten by opponent fullbacks, there will be always serious danger from crosses.

 

But playing a 4 man defence is a big problem for us. David Luiz is going to be a liability playing 4 at the back (his tendency to be out of position is a problem). Alonso will also struggle,  he is great going forward but struggle at one on one. 

It will be tons of changes imo to create a good team with 4 at the back with our current squad. 

 

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

57 minutes ago, Leif said:

well yeah, football changed so the fans adapted. clubs changed their goals so we changed our expectations and criteria.

Yes new Chelsea fans have they behave like envious housewifes Man city have bought him why haven't we bought so and so.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

1 hour ago, communicate said:

But playing a 4 man defence is a big problem for us. David Luiz is going to be a liability playing 4 at the back (his tendency to be out of position is a problem). Alonso will also struggle,  he is great going forward but struggle at one on one. 

It will be tons of changes imo to create a good team with 4 at the back with our current squad. 

 

Indeed, but better to start sooner than in few years when we see it wont work in CL (unless it works ofcourse).

[communicate 2,703]

2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Indeed, but better to start sooner than in few years when we see it wont work in CL (unless it works ofcourse).

Agree but are we willing to be "bad" for a couple of season ? 

Like you said in your post, let's just buy players to upgrade the quality level of our squad first. We may be champion this season but I consider united,city,arsenal, and spurs to have better squad than ours let alone competing with the three european big boys. In the end of the day whether playing back 4/5 our need imo is still the same. Better wingback/fullback and better midfielder. 

I expect in next season our opponent to have better way to counter our 343. It was a massive problem for most team to handle our "front" 5. In the beginning we were creating chances at will even without fab. Not so much in the end of the season, where we kinda need to grind out chances unless fab is on. This and upgrade for either moses or alonso is the biggest need for next season imo.