The Mourinho Thread

[Jase 43,479]

I think people have forgotten just how rancid Benitez was. The standard of football was woeful, the substitutions never made sense (he'd often take off the best player on the day for Yossi Benayoun or bring on a defender when chasing a match or some other counter-logical thing), and 'squad rotation' policy was shocking

Not going to criticize the work Benitez did. He did okay in the end. Not good/great but not awful either.

Just find it funny that whenever people mentioned and thought that Benitez did a great job and we did better under him than Mourinho this season, it seems that they only remember the last 10-15 games or so when we had that good winning run in the league and Europa League but forgot the amount of dross and rubbish-ness that we had to endured in the months before (and even at times during the run-in). It's almost as if people have a short term memory loss or a selective memory.

[The Skipper 20,593]

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2014/5/5/5682644/on-strikers-finishing-parked-buses-and-jose-mourinhos-tactics

Our play may not be pretty, but this debunks any theory that we only shoot from outside the box. We actually create enough chances from the box to win games but we don't have clinical finishers at all. There is a huge difference being 1-0 up than going to the break at 0-0, a far more clinical striker and Am will change this.

Mourinho knows what he is talking about when he complains about our lack of clinical players.

There's a difference between a shot on target and a good quality chance. You don't need stats to tell you that.

As the author of that title said, the article is purely based on stats and everyone knows stats don't tell the whole story. If we go by stats we've apparently created the 2nd most chances in the league after City. Everyone knows that most of those chances weren't quality chances.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Did anyone seriously believe this 'theory' though?

The lack of a clinical striker is so painfully obvious that sometimes people try to overthink things and look for other issues. Sometimes when you hear hooves, think horses not zebras.

Yes, because those saying that we need more than a striker to complete the team are saying that we don't need a striker? How stupid does that sound?

I've said before, a top striker would've probably won us the league this year but it wouldn't have made our side complete. Even Mourinho acknowledges that and understands that we're still a couple of top signings away from completing the side. He hasn't said, "all we need is a striker".

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

There's a difference between a shot on target and a good quality chance. You don't need stats to tell you that.

As the author of that title said, the article is purely based on stats and everyone knows stats don't tell the whole story. If we go by stats we've apparently created the 2nd most chances in the league after City. Everyone knows that most of those chances weren't quality chances.

but they were chances and a good amount of them WERE quality. Bottom line is until we get someone who is capable of finishing off some of the chances we fashion we'll never know what type a team we have. A great deal of goals we've scored this year have come from our attacking midfielders which is exactly the opposite to the teams that have scored the most goals this year.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

There's a difference between a shot on target and a good quality chance. You don't need stats to tell you that.

As the author of that title said, the article is purely based on stats and everyone knows stats don't tell the whole story. If we go by stats we've apparently created the 2nd most chances in the league after City. Everyone knows that most of those chances weren't quality chances.

Look at those charts again, look at where we took those shots from, look at how nasri scored city's first goal against westham and tell me any of our players would have scored that. Surely you know that our front four except eto are average at best in finishing. Rarely score like yaya or nasri from outside the 18box against parked buses on their own.

I didn't say we will play as well as bayern of last season with a striker, I said we don't play the most sexy football but we created enough chances to win games that we drew/lost. I said we would have gotten at least 5 more points than we have now and we would have won the league.

That said, people also put this impression that we take all our shots from outside the 18 box. That article debunked that theory. Infact it shows we take as much shots in the box as any other top team in the league but like torres and salah showed once again in our last game, we fluff them. That changes the psychology of the game and makes things more difficult.

See madrids last 2 games without ronaldo and bale, they don't score much because the rest are bad finishers as our team. With all the chances they created, morata fluffed them.

[The Skipper 20,593]

but they were chances and a good amount of them WERE quality. Bottom line is until we get someone who is capable of finishing off some of the chances we fashion we'll never know what type a team we have. A great deal of goals we've scored this year have come from our attacking midfielders which is exactly the opposite to the teams that have scored the most goals this year.

Mate, I'm not disagreeing that a better striker would've probably nicked us a few points here and there but can you can't honestly tell me that we consistently created quality chances like City and Liverpool do. We just didn't. The teams that have scored the most goals this season have set their team up with two strikers, of course most of their goals are going to be via them - us on the other hand, only field one striker, so of course our goals are going to be more distributed. You can't really use that to justify what you're saying simply because they play a completely different system to us.

Not all of our chances are going to fall to our striker either because we play a 1 man system up front so it's natural that some go to our attacking midfielders. As I said before, you really can't compare our system to City's or Liverpool's simply because we don't have a top striker and we do not play like they do.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Look at those charts again, look at where we took those shots from, look at how nasri scored city's first goal against westham and tell me any of our players would have scored that. Surely you know that our front four except eto are average at best in finishing. Rarely score like yaya or nasri from outside the 18box against parked buses on their own.

I didn't say we will play as well as bayern of last season with a striker, I said we don't play the most sexy football but we created enough chances to win games that we drew/lost. I said we would have gotten at least 5 more points than we have now and we would have won the league.

That said, people also put this impression that we take all our shots from outside the 18 box. That article debunked that theory. Infact it shows we take as much shots in the box as any other top team in the league but like torres and salah showed once again in our last game, we fluff them. That changes the psychology of the game and makes things more difficult.

See madrids last 2 games without ronaldo and bale, they don't score much because the rest are bad finishers as our team. With all the chances they created, morata fluffed them.

We do have midfield players that are decent shooters from outside the area - Schurrle especially, and let's not forget Hazard and Oscar have it in their locker as well. I don't think that's the debate here at all.

Now to those charts; you can't honestly tell me that a shot inside the box equates to a quality chance. The chart ignores the speculative nature of the shot, how many defenders are still in the box, whether the player shooting the ball is being heavily marked or not... It's not like those shots in the box equate to 1 on 1 quality chances for whatever player is taking that shot. Shot on target in the area does not equal a quality chance, surely you know that? The same article above tells you this regarding the Norwich game:

"We had 4 shots on target in this game. 1 of which was inside the area. 1 shot on target inside the area is not good enough. It is that simple."

Are you telling me that we created enough to win that game? Surely not. It's not about sexy football, it's about creating quality chances. We should be able to consistently do that with the talent in the team. Can you honestly tell me that our strikers (no matter how bad they've been this season) have routinely flopped 1 on 1, quality chances that have been laid on a plate for them this season? Surely not. Of course goals change the psychology of a game, we're not discussing that here - what we are discussing is that we don't create enough quality chances to get these goals. If we truly want to be a dominant side, we must improve our play in the final third by creating more space for our creative players and our strikers, getting them into dangerous positions and bettering our off the ball movement and link up play.

If you honestly think we've created as much as the likes of City and Liverpool did this season then respectfully, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Mate, I'm not disagreeing that a better striker would've probably nicked us a few points here and there but can you can't honestly tell me that we consistently created quality chances like City and Liverpool do. We just didn't. The teams that have scored the most goals this season have set their team up with two strikers, of course most of their goals are going to be via them - us on the other hand, only field one striker, so of course our goals are going to be more distributed. You can't really use that to justify what you're saying simply because they play a completely different system to us.

Not all of our chances are going to fall to our striker either because we play a 1 man system up front so it's natural that some go to our attacking midfielders. As I said before, you really can't compare our system to City's or Liverpool's simply because we don't have a top striker and we do not play like they do.

Are we talking about chances CREATED or chances CONVERTED?

And yes you are correct not every chance is going to fall to the striker but as I've also said our attacking mids score more goals than pretty much any squad in the Prem. We're mincing words here anyway, I just don't buy this argument that we don't create enough chances, we do, they just haven't been converted at a reasonable clip.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Are we talking about chances CREATED or chances CONVERTED?

And yes you are correct not every chance is going to fall to the striker but as I've also said our attacking mids score more goals than pretty much any squad in the Prem. We're mincing words here anyway, I just don't buy this argument that we don't create enough chances, we do, they just haven't been converted at a reasonable clip.

I'm talking about chances created. Sure, we've created chances but in my opinion they haven't been chances of real quality, i.e. clear cut, and that's my argument, and that ties in with chances converted. You can't expect to convert more when the quality of the chance is poor. Actually, on average we've made the most shots in the league this year yet we're still 30 odd goals behind Liverpool and Man City - surely that should tell you that our shot selection just isn't good enough (because of various reasons I've stated before)?

But you're right, you have your right to believe that we do create enough quality chances whilst I have the right to believe that we don't - as you said, it's better to agree to disagree on the subject, since we are going round in circles with the discussion.

[couris 232]

Before Jose came back last year, when the media started to say Jose is going to get rid of Mata and Luiz, Joses lovers would blast the shit out of these rumors, saying its just tactics to make Jose look bad.....Now looks like everyone is happy with Mata and Luiz gone. Incredible.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

We do have midfield players that are decent shooters from outside the area - Schurrle especially, and let's not forget Hazard and Oscar have it in their locker as well. I don't think that's the debate here at all.

Now to those charts; you can't honestly tell me that a shot inside the box equates to a quality chance. The chart ignores the speculative nature of the shot, how many defenders are still in the box, whether the player shooting the ball is being heavily marked or not... It's not like those shots in the box equate to 1 on 1 quality chances for whatever player is taking that shot. Shot on target in the area does not equal a quality chance, surely you know that? The same article above tells you this regarding the Norwich game:

"We had 4 shots on target in this game. 1 of which was inside the area. 1 shot on target inside the area is not good enough. It is that simple."

Are you telling me that we created enough to win that game? Surely not. It's not about sexy football, it's about creating quality chances. Can you honestly tell me that our strikers (no matter how bad they've been this season) have routinely flopped 1 on 1, quality chances that have been laid on a plate for them this season? Surely not. Of course goals change the psychology of a game, we're not discussing that here - what we are discussing is that we don't create enough quality chances to get these goals. If we truly want to be a dominant side, we must improve our play in the final third by creating more space for our creative players and our strikers, and bettering our off the ball movement and link up play.

If you honestly think we've created as much as the likes of City and Liverpool did this season then respectfully, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Okay I get what you mean. You consider only a 1 on 1 as a quality chance. Imo we don't get enough of those because of how deep teams sit against us, (even every top team we did that against faced this problem) and even when we do get them,

ba decides to fall against sunderland in front of goal

Eto shoots off target against swansea in front of goal

Torres is torres after dribbling the cardiff keeper.

These are just the ones I remember our strikers miss in recent games, I haven't even mentioned the rest of our attacking midfielders misses. I haven't mentioned the strikers poor movement that makes them invisible, or useless first touch that ruins a lot of attacking moves.

In the case of comparing with liverpool and city, we don't create as much as them to score 4-5 goals but we create just enough to score 2 goals in almost every match, with a solid defence we have an advantage over city and liverpool but we lose badly in terms of ratio of taking chances.

Those positions that you are pointing that are not clear chances is where

sterling scored a screamer from,

Its where yaya toure won mancity the league cup in a tight match

Its where nasri scored in the last game of the season

Its where suarez has scored so much from this season

Coutinho scored an equalizer against fulham

It wasn't a clear cut chance for city and pool too but they score far more than us from these positions, we dont. Our strikers wait for the ball to fall on their chest in front of the keeper before they can score, pay me that money they earn, I think I'll tap in a lot of goals too.

With better finishers, we get early goals and then we can play the counter style we are best at and steam roll the opposition.

We don't have enough finishers in our team, only schurle and eto come close (I can't include oscar and hazard like you suggest because they miss too many shots off target to be considered a finisher). But city have aguero, dzeko, nasri, yaya from CM with and improved quality crossing of kolarov(compared with our fullbacks)

Liverpool have suarez, sturridge, sterling, gerrard from CM.

Its 2 against 4 finishers and when eto/schurrle doesn't play its 1 against 4 pure finishers.

We are simply outgunned in the attacking area. We need a striker to lift that burden, score that 1 chance against barcelona, score that one corner chance against bayern in munich.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Okay I get what you mean. You consider only a 1 on 1 as a quality chance. Imo we don't get enough of those because of how deep teams sit against us, (even every top team we did that against faced this problem) and even when we do get them,

ba decides to fall against sunderland in front of goal

Eto shoots off target against swansea in front of goal

Torres is torres after dribbling the cardiff keeper.

These are just the ones I remember our strikers miss in recent games, I haven't even mentioned the rest of our attacking midfielders misses. I haven't mentioned the strikers poor movement that makes them invisible, or useless first touch that ruins a lot of attacking moves.

No, I don't consider just a 1 on 1 as a quality chance - it's feeding players into dangerous positions which allows them a good probable shot on goal that I consider as a quality chance. I'm not defending our strikers and I'm not saying that we don't need a striker - we 100% need a quality striker. I've never said anything less. What I am saying though is that getting in this quality striker will not complete us as a team. As I've said many times before, if we had let's say a Diego Costa upfront for the 13/14 season we probably would've won the league because quality strikers take half chances and produce magic on their own, but it would've papered over the cracks because simply signing a striker alone would not automatically improve our final play in the third to the level we should be aspiring at; to the level which will allow our most talented players to truly flourish.

In the case of comparing with liverpool and city, we don't create as much as them to score 4-5 goals but we create just enough to score 2 goals in almost every match, with a solid defence we have an advantage over city and liverpool but we lose badly in terms of ratio of taking chances.

We lose out badly in the ratio of taking chances because our chances created aren't anywhere near as good as Liverpool's or City's who consistently slice open these defences we struggle against. The ratio is bad because they aren't quality chances that are made via good build up play - we rely way too much on the individual brilliance of players. We need to greatly improve how we play against teams that sit deep; against the likes of Norwich, Crystal Palace etc. who are obviously just playing for a point - not saying they're easy to beat or anything but with the attacking talent we have on the team and the talent we will be acquiring over the summer we should be able to consistently break down these sort of teams just like City and Liverpool do.

Those positions that you are pointing that are not clear chances is where

sterling scored a screamer from,

Its where yaya toure won mancity the league cup in a tight match

Its where nasri scored in the last game of the season

Its where suarez has scored so much from this season

Coutinho scored an equalizer against fulham

It wasn't a clear cut chance for city and pool too but they score far more than us from these positions, we dont. Our strikers wait for the ball to fall on their chest in front of the keeper before they can score, pay me that money they earn, I think I'll tap in a lot of goals too.

Sure, I'm not suggesting that all of our chances have to be clear cut - of course not - but the ratio of clear cut chances that we have compared to the ratio that Liverpool and City have is obviously not a good thing for us. We don't score enough from these positions because we don't have a true system that fully allows our most talented players to thrive - how many times is Hazard surrounded by 3 players in the final third when we face deep defences? How is he meant to impact the game when that happens? This is why the system in the final third must improve - we have to create more spaces for our most creative and talented players to thrive in - a simple overlap from an attacking fullback who has a good cross on him and is threatening in the final third will create more space for Hazard - likewise how linking up with a CM in the pivot (City have Fernandinho or Yaya, Liverpool have Gerrard) or an AM who is dangerous in the attacking third (think Coutinho, Aguero when he's dropping off a Dzeko or Negredo or Silva) and connects play well will also create more space for someone like Hazard to try and influence the game with his talent. The system we implement right now doesn't allow that - and admittedly Mourinho has seen that we don't have the personnel to implement a system like that which is why he himself said that we've gone to a more conservative style of play.

Hazard scored plenty of great long range shots in the 12/13 season, Oscar scored an absolute peach against Juve, Schurrle used to routinely bang them in from long range for Leverkussen... We do have players that can provide something special outside the box but because we aren't cohesive enough in the final third they struggle to create that sort of space for themselves.

With better finishers, we get early goals and then we can play the counter style we are best at and steam roll the opposition.

We don't have enough finishers in our team, only schurle and eto come close (I can't include oscar and hazard like you suggest because they miss too many shots off target to be considered a finisher). But city have aguero, dzeko, nasri, yaya from CM with and improved quality crossing of kolarov(compared with our fullbacks)

Liverpool have suarez, sturridge, sterling, gerrard from CM.

Its 2 against 4 finishers and when eto/schurrle doesn't play its 1 against 4 pure finishers.

We are simply outgunned in the attacking area. We need a striker to lift that burden, score that 1 chance against barcelona, score that one corner chance against bayern in munich.

Even if we do score an early goal (which you can't always rely on - what if we don't?) I personally don't think it's wise to then return to our counter attacking game against the likes of Norwich, Crystal Palace, Villa, WBA etc... Sure we can be slightly more conservative but we do need that 2nd goal to kill them off because anything can happen in football - it's much better to be proactive than reactive against these sort of teams that sit deep, grab that 2nd goal to kill them off (Mourinho always says we struggle in killing teams off) and then perhaps going to a counter attacking game (when they have nothing to lose and when the game is not still in the balance) is justified.

If you're going to quantify Nasri and Sterling as finishers surely I can quantify Oscar and Hazard as finishers as well? Like I said, in the 12/13 season both of these scored better goals than any Sterling or Nasri have. They certainly have that in their locker. I agree that we don't have enough quality in the CF position, I'm not debating that whatsoever, but like I said before, we need more quality in our general play in order for our players to flourish more. Signing a top striker is definitely a move into the right direction but we need more than that to truly become a complete team that doesn't struggle as much against sides that sit deep.

[manpe 10,857]

Now looks like everyone is happy with Mata and Luiz gone.

Have I missed something?

[zolayes 14,489]

Yes, because those saying that we need more than a striker to complete the team are saying that we don't need a striker? How stupid does that sound?

I've said before, a top striker would've probably won us the league this year but it wouldn't have made our side complete. Even Mourinho acknowledges that and understands that we're still a couple of top signings away from completing the side. He hasn't said, "all we need is a striker".

few sides are ever complete ,,, but no probably about it . WITH a DECENT striker we would have won the league by 10 points at least,

Jose hasnt admitted that we would PROBABLY have won the league with Lukaku... I think we would tho .. just on the % conversion he had.

[darrus 422]

Vhanging the topic a bit. With Terry's renovation and his words of praise for Mourinho I think it will be good to remember this article written at the end of April

http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2014/04/21/champions/1398108828_465569.html

Here Diego Torres (remember him and his books?) informed us that relationship and trust between Mourinho and Terry is completely broken and gone.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

No, I don't consider just a 1 on 1 as a quality chance - it's feeding players into dangerous positions which allows them a good probable shot on goal that I consider as a quality chance. I'm not defending our strikers and I'm not saying that we don't need a striker - we 100% need a quality striker. I've never said anything less. What I am saying though is that getting in this quality striker will not complete us as a team. As I've said many times before, if we had let's say a Diego Costa upfront for the 13/14 season we probably would've won the league because quality strikers take half chances and produce magic on their own, but it would've papered over the cracks because simply signing a striker alone would not automatically improve our final play in the third to the level we should be aspiring at; to the level which will allow our most talented players to truly flourish.

02

We lose out badly in the ratio of taking chances because our chances created aren't anywhere near as good as Liverpool's or City's who consistently slice open these defences we struggle against. The ratio is bad because they aren't quality chances that are made via good build up play - we rely way too much on the individual brilliance of players. We need to greatly improve how we play against teams that sit deep; against the likes of Norwich, Crystal Palace etc. who are obviously just playing for a point - not saying they're easy to beat or anything but with the attacking talent we have on the team and the talent we will be acquiring over the summer we should be able to consistently break down these sort of teams just like City and Liverpool do.

02

Sure, I'm not suggesting that all of our chances have to be clear cut - of course not - but the ratio of clear cut chances that we have compared to the ratio that Liverpool and City have is obviously not a good thing for us. We don't score enough from these positions because we don't have a true system that fully allows our most talented players to thrive - how many times is Hazard surrounded by 3 players in the final third when we face deep defences? How is he meant to impact the game when that happens? This is why the system in the final third must improve - we have to create more spaces for our most creative and talented players to thrive in - a simple overlap from an attacking fullback who has a good cross on him and is threatening in the final third will create more space for Hazard - likewise how linking up with a CM in the pivot (City have Fernandinho or Yaya, Liverpool have Gerrard) or an AM who is dangerous in the attacking third (think Coutinho, Aguero when he's dropping off a Dzeko or Negredo or Silva) and connects play well will also create more space for someone like Hazard to try and influence the game with his talent. The system we implement right now doesn't allow that - and admittedly Mourinho has seen that we don't have the personnel to implement a system like that which is why he himself said that we've gone to a more conservative style of play.

Hazard scored plenty of great long range shots in the 12/13 season, Oscar scored an absolute peach against Juve, Schurrle used to routinely bang them in from long range for Leverkussen... We do have players that can provide something special outside the box but because we aren't cohesive enough in the final third they struggle to create that sort of space for themselves.

02

Even if we do score an early goal (which you can't always rely on - what if we don't?) I personally don't think it's wise to then return to our counter attacking game against the likes of Norwich, Crystal Palace, Villa, WBA etc... Sure we can be slightly more conservative but we do need that 2nd goal to kill them off because anything can happen in football - it's much better to be proactive than reactive against these sort of teams that sit deep, grab that 2nd goal to kill them off (Mourinho always says we struggle in killing teams off) and then perhaps go to a counter attacking game (when they have nothing to lose and when the game is not still in the balance) is justified.

If you're going to quantify Nasri and Sterling as finishers surely I can quantify Oscar and Hazard as finishers as well? Like I said, in the 12/13 both of these scored better goals than any Sterling or Nasri have. They certainly have that in their locker. I agree that we don't have enough quality in the CF position, I'm not debating that whatsoever, but like I said before, we need more quality in our general play in order for our players to flourish more. Signing a top striker is definitely a move into the right direction but we need more than that to truly become a complete team that doesn't struggle as much against sides that sit deep.

Good answers.

You specified on how we should improve our tactics to become a more complete team. But I was just trying to prove that even with our "boring" style this season, we could have won those smaller matches and the league with a more clinical striker.

To improve our play to be complete, I agree with you. Here's a post about this I even wrote earlier.

Nice. That's why the clinical striker is important. A striker good in tight spaces or can use his physical strength to create space for himself and shoot.

Not just that.

1. We also need team combinations. 1-2 movements between hazard and willian is needed and with the striker. We need a constant front 4 again with no rotation to increase team chemistry.

2. I heard that pellegrini trains with his team in shooting practice at the etihad stadium a day before home matches. We could adopt similar methods to increase our accuracy in finishing.

3. Also hazard needs the leftback to support, we can't have him marked by 3 people and not let a runner take advantage of the space. If we are building the team around him, we should do it properly with more team support.

4. We need to learn how to keep possession too. It will help conserve pressing energy in matches so that the players can rest a little. Be like athletico, perfect pressing and good on the ball with two full backs going forward at EVERY attack. We shouldn't just play like they met each other for the first time when opposition let us have the ball, we should have more passing triangles especially in the attacking third.

5. We play too slow!! Increase the tempo and we force defenders to make mistakes. This is our biggest problem against small teams.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

The only downpoint was when Jose said they didnt play well...he should tell players they did good job but to do it even better next year...

Instead Jose made it look like players were shit this season...

[xPetrCechx 13,548]

The only downpoint was when Jose said they didnt play well...he should tell players they did good job but to do it even better next year...

Instead Jose made it look like players were shit this season...

it's right for players like ramires,oscar...