The Tuchel Thread

[NikkiCFC 8,058]

History is a bit against Tuchel here... In last 12 years we got 3 PL and 2 CL but we never won 2 major titles in b2b seasons. Only one who did that was Jose with b2b PL titles.

 

[Magic Lamps 11,668]

45 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

History is a bit against Tuchel here... In last 12 years we got 3 PL and 2 CL but we never won 2 major titles in b2b seasons. Only one who did that was Jose with b2b PL titles.

 

Hardly a sufficient sample

still if we just collect some of the small titles, most importantly the cwc I will be happy with that 

[Strike 7,254]

Even though we won, I find it really weird that in 60 games, Tuchel has more or less stuck to this one 3-4-3 system he devised on the plane to London when he was taking the job. We won the Champions League with it, but it is clear a different tactic is needed in league games. He seems hesitant to try 4 at the back or an attacking approach in league matches against parked buses. Setpieces, penalties, wingbacks and crossing in hope is not going to win us enough games over a season. 

[NikkiCFC 8,058]

5 minutes ago, Strike said:

Even though we won, I find it really weird that in 60 games, Tuchel has more or less stuck to this one 3-4-3 system he devised on the plane to London when he was taking the job. We won the Champions League with it, but it is clear a different tactic is needed in league games. He seems hesitant to try 4 at the back or an attacking approach in league matches against parked buses. Setpieces, penalties, wingbacks and crossing in hope is not going to win us enough games over a season. 

We need Chilwell back for 4 atb system I suppose but yeah, at some point he has to do it. Where does current system leaves Havertz? Hopefully this is the start of Lukaku delivering constantly and people need to make peace he is our number one striker for next couple of years. Havertz is more than anything number 10 so would play him behind. CHO can make LW his own and Mount is pretty much RW even in this system so wouldn't make much difference to him. 

It would suit Pulisic as well. And Gallagher next season. Only problematic are our CBs but we are after 2 new CBs in the summer so we can address that.  And Tcho is hopefully here next season. 

I just don't like the idea of 

       Lukaku 

 Havertz Mount 

It cannot work, you need pacy player. 

 

[Jase 43,479]

5 hours ago, Strike said:

Even though we won, I find it really weird that in 60 games, Tuchel has more or less stuck to this one 3-4-3 system he devised on the plane to London when he was taking the job. We won the Champions League with it, but it is clear a different tactic is needed in league games. He seems hesitant to try 4 at the back or an attacking approach in league matches against parked buses. Setpieces, penalties, wingbacks and crossing in hope is not going to win us enough games over a season. 

I see what you're saying but will a change to the back 4 really solve the issue? We have had managers in the past that played a back 4 and we still always had issues breaking down defensive teams. Back then, we relied on one player mostly and now, we seemed to rely on set pieces and penalties. We seem to have a chronic issue of breaking such teams down regardless of the manager and the system. And that's before we even question whether the players are suited to the back 4 system. 

[Strike 7,254]

2 hours ago, Jase said:

I see what you're saying but will a change to the back 4 really solve the issue? We have had managers in the past that played a back 4 and we still always had issues breaking down defensive teams. Back then, we relied on one player mostly and now, we seemed to rely on set pieces and penalties. We seem to have a chronic issue of breaking such teams down regardless of the manager and the system. And that's before we even question whether the players are suited to the back 4 system. 

The back 3 + 2 DMs + 2 wing backs feels too cautious for games like Burnley or Everton at home

and yees - the players suited to a back 4 question is a worry - Alonso, Christensen, T Silva too don't seem like good fits. But Tuchel did have a summer to address this.

[ZAPHOD2319 4,519]

Back three or back four will not solve how we approach the final third once we are in possession with everyone forward. We really need to be better at our wings dribbling past the line and working the ball back to players coming in behind on runs, instead of dribbling and high crosses. Our midfield needs to be able to send through balls on a consistent basis. Right now our final third seems to be all attackers stand in a straight line and then chase a high cross. It creates long periods of agony as a fan. I almost have to pray we hit on a counter just for some excitement. Don’t get me wrong, I love what Tuchel is doing, but I hope he turns the Eye of Sauron on how to get more out of our final third when we are in possesion.

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

Yep, the back 4 argument for me is pretty pointless because we are a bit toothless in attack either way. We could playa front 7 and we would still be the same I think because the players aren’t ruthless or perhaps good enough (some of them anyway). Plus in a back 4 we are considerably less solid, the likes of Azpi, Rudi, Thiago and Andreas end up much more exposed and also we are severely worse in terms of structure for building the play.

So aye dont really get the 3 CBs, 2 DMs and 2 WBs stifling us, if anything with the wingbacks role changing in the last months, we have 5 players who are always in the opposition half in advanced positions, our attacking play should improve. But the players and decision making stifles/fucks us more than the formation and tactics.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Jase 43,479]

42 minutes ago, Strike said:

The back 3 + 2 DMs + 2 wing backs feels too cautious for games like Burnley or Everton at home

How does that feel cautious? 

For starters, it's not as if the wing backs just camp in our half and defend. They join the attack way more often than not. One problem is that we have Alonso on the left at the moment while James still doesn't have any sort of consistency like say TAA at Liverpool. On top of that, at least one of our midfielders have the license to join the attack - be it Kante, Kovacic or Loftus-Cheek. Again, it's not as if they just sit in midfield and defend.

Also, we created so many chances for at least 3 halves of those two games you mentioned and the issue was we didn't put enough chances away. Had one extra chance was put away in each game and we won, we would be having a different conversation here. Your point about us being cautious there would be more valid if we struggled to create chances at all. Our main issue in almost every game is converting chances, rather than creating chances. 

48 minutes ago, Strike said:

and yees - the players suited to a back 4 question is a worry - Alonso, Christensen, T Silva too don't seem like good fits. But Tuchel did have a summer to address this.

Yes but did Tuchel have any plan to switch to a back 4 anyway? I thought for sure he would move to a back 4 based on his past but he has stuck with the back 3 and it has pretty much worked. Maybe if some of the defenders leave next summer, it will give Tuchel the chance to restructure the system or maybe not at all and he will stick with the back 3. 

[Strike 7,254]

11 minutes ago, Jase said:

How does that feel cautious? 

For starters, it's not as if the wing backs just camp in our half and defend. They join the attack way more often than not. One problem is that we have Alonso on the left at the moment while James still doesn't have any sort of consistency like say TAA at Liverpool. On top of that, at least one of our midfielders have the license to join the attack - be it Kante, Kovacic or Loftus-Cheek. Again, it's not as if they just sit in midfield and defend.

Also, we created so many chances for at least 3 halves of those two games you mentioned and the issue was we didn't put enough chances away. Had one extra chance was put away in each game and we won, we would be having a different conversation here. Your point about us being cautious there would be more valid if we struggled to create chances at all. Our main issue in almost every game is converting chances, rather than creating chances. 

Yes but did Tuchel have any plan to switch to a back 4 anyway? I thought for sure he would move to a back 4 based on his past but he has stuck with the back 3 and it has pretty much worked. Maybe if some of the defenders leave next summer, it will give Tuchel the chance to restructure the system or maybe not at all and he will stick with the back 3. 

There are 3 goals from the sitting midfielders this season and its a pattern from last season too. They are primarily defensive players than creative players. We dont have the attacking quality of our title rivals but I feel that we dominate possession, territory like a top team now and can add another creative player to help the attack. 

Our overall xG, shots, shots on goal is closer to Arsenal than it is to City, Liverpool.  I find that cautious because we dominate possession, territory much more than Arsenal do.

Burnley and Everton were games we were on top and should have won though. You're right that chance conversion was the bigger issue in those games.

[Tomo 21,733]

12 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Hopefully this is the start of Lukaku delivering constantly and people need to make peace he is our number one striker for next couple of years.

If he starts actually delivering constantly (and that includes big games) I would "make peace with it" quite happily.

[Jase 43,479]

On 27/12/2021 at 21:51, Strike said:

There are 3 goals from the sitting midfielders this season and its a pattern from last season too. They are primarily defensive players than creative players. We dont have the attacking quality of our title rivals but I feel that we dominate possession, territory like a top team now and can add another creative player to help the attack. 

I'd say that Kovacic has improved on the creative aspect this season. Don't know the exact numbers and comparison with past season but he already has a few assists. Otherwise, I don't know if there's a genuine creative midfielder like Fabregas out there. 

In any case though, you implied that we are defensive with this back 3/5 system but when we attack, we attack with at least 5 players - the 3 attackers + the 2 WBs and that is not really different from a back 4 system. With a back 4, teams generally attack with at least 4 players - 3 attackers + 1 FB or 4 attackers etc. 

You also said that our midfielders are primarily defensive players more than creative players. Is that really different from say Liverpool, who is often lauded for their offensive plays? They mainly attack with 4-5 players and their front 3 provide the goals and the 2 FBs provide the assists. Excluding penalties, the goals amount from Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago, Keita ain't too different from Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante. The one big difference is that they have reliable goalscorers but we don't. 

On 27/12/2021 at 21:51, Strike said:

Our overall xG, shots, shots on goal is closer to Arsenal than it is to City, Liverpool.  I find that cautious because we dominate possession, territory much more than Arsenal do.

Our xG is kinda in between those clubs. City's xG is 46.6, Liverpool's is 45.4, ours is 36.3 and Arsenal's 28.8. 

But again, this goes back to the point that we don't have reliable goalscorers and I guess creators. 

[Strike 7,254]

11 hours ago, Jase said:

I'd say that Kovacic has improved on the creative aspect this season. Don't know the exact numbers and comparison with past season but he already has a few assists. Otherwise, I don't know if there's a genuine creative midfielder like Fabregas out there. 

In any case though, you implied that we are defensive with this back 3/5 system but when we attack, we attack with at least 5 players - the 3 attackers + the 2 WBs and that is not really different from a back 4 system. With a back 4, teams generally attack with at least 4 players - 3 attackers + 1 FB or 4 attackers etc. 

You also said that our midfielders are primarily defensive players more than creative players. Is that really different from say Liverpool, who is often lauded for their offensive plays? They mainly attack with 4-5 players and their front 3 provide the goals and the 2 FBs provide the assists. Excluding penalties, the goals amount from Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago, Keita ain't too different from Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante. The one big difference is that they have reliable goalscorers but we don't. 

Our xG is kinda in between those clubs. City's xG is 46.6, Liverpool's is 45.4, ours is 36.3 and Arsenal's 28.8. 

But again, this goes back to the point that we don't have reliable goalscorers and I guess creators. 

City often commits 6-7 players forward - they leave behind only the two CBs and the DM - which is risky because the press could be broken but we need to start taking the risk especially in the league. Even Liverpool play a similar overcommitting approach

The caveat here is we don't have the quality, unpredictability of Liverpool or City in attack. But if we were to try something it would be to add a creative player sacrificing one of the CBs.

 

[NikkiCFC 8,058]

42 points half season. Our best result since Conte winning season.

Conte in 2nd season and Sarri were very close to this at half season but won way less points in 2nd part of the season.

TT took job exactly at half season and got 38 points in 19 games. So this season a bit of improvement. On a track to win 84 points but I expect more because we lost so many stupid points and this should not happen again.

Still, cannot see us catching City they will finish 90+ points, we pretty much must win all games.

[Strike 7,254]

10 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

42 points half season. Our best result since Conte winning season.

Conte in 2nd season and Sarri were very close to this at half season but won way less points in 2nd part of the season.

TT took job exactly at half season and got 38 points in 19 games. So this season a bit of improvement. On a track to win 84 points but I expect more because we lost so many stupid points and this should not happen again.

Still, cannot see us catching City they will finish 90+ points, we pretty much must win all games.

I'd be good with a comfortable 2nd/3rd finish. We look competitive over knockout games so another European run looks possible. But we need to make more progress about addressing our issues in attack in the league.

[Jase 43,479]

15 hours ago, Strike said:

City often commits 6-7 players forward - they leave behind only the two CBs and the DM - which is risky because the press could be broken but we need to start taking the risk especially in the league. Even Liverpool play a similar overcommitting approach

The caveat here is we don't have the quality, unpredictability of Liverpool or City in attack. But if we were to try something it would be to add a creative player sacrificing one of the CBs.

But again, playing a back 4 is still no guarantee to success, is there? We have played a back 4 before under previous managers and did we necessarily score more goals, look more attacking etc? On top of that, our playing style doesn't seem to be as consistent as Man City's or even Liverpool's. 

[Superblue 6,372]

1 hour ago, Jase said:

But again, playing a back 4 is still no guarantee to success, is there? We have played a back 4 before under previous managers and did we necessarily score more goals, look more attacking etc? On top of that, our playing style doesn't seem to be as consistent as Man City's or even Liverpool's. 

Agreed. Bar Lukaku, the same group of players played a back 4 under Lampard and that wasn't working.

Our attackers are inconsistent, that's the biggest problem. Recent games have been a bit more difficult but usually we've created more than enough chances to score goals and win games and regularly we've been found wanting. Is having an extra inconsistent attacker on the pitch going to help things in attack at the risk of making our defensive shape significantly more vulnerable? 

We've already seen Alonso at full back, Rudiger in a back 2, Jorginho with less protection in midfield and none are a recipe for success moving forward.

 

[Laylabelle 9,384]

14 hours ago, Strike said:

I'd be good with a comfortable 2nd/3rd finish. We look competitive over knockout games so another European run looks possible. But we need to make more progress about addressing our issues in attack in the league.

Yeah same. Think 3rd more likely but never know. Didnt expect us to challenge for the title and less so when people were raving about us. I just didn't expect our play to be so frustrating. Especially like you say our attack or lack of it. Having such a impact and hopefully something we can fix? So don't keep throwing silly points anyway