The Tuchel Thread

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

1 hour ago, Clockwork said:

It says a lot about Tuchel how he has squeezed so much out of Rudigar, Silva, AC, Chalobah, Azpi(LCB), etc. heck what he has done with Sarr is quite amazing, he was struggling in Portugal and couldn’t get minutes there, and Tuchel has made him serviceable,

on the flip side he has done terrible job with our attackers, his system is very much at fault. Our attackers are way too isolated and left without options, let’s compare that to City. Where they have LB/RB overlapping and Bernardo and KDB through midfield. 
 

 

True, It is TTs  system that makes defenders shine and attackers stagnate. At psg it did not really matter cos he had Neymar and knappe. At Dortmund he had very poor defenders which looked somewhat alright. But compares to the defenses Dortmund faced his attackers (prime mikhitaryan, Reus and auba) were still better than ours vs average epl defence.
 

In our formation bc the cm/s don’t join the attack the AMs and the ST will always be outnumbered when going inside restricting their goal output potential. The wing backs however will be afforded more space either out wide when our AM/winger has dragged the opposition fullback into the channel or inside when there is an overlapping run. TT made use of this by encouraging RJ and chilly to make those high runs to get into scoring positions. So the attackers are actually the water carriers creating space and wearing defenders down. 
 

Now we basically lost our most valuable atttacking threats. without changing formation we are effectively 2 attackers down as Azpi and Alonso just are not adequate back ups. Playing Cho and pukisic as wing backs has not really worked cos both are out of form and confidence. 
 

Unsurprisingly, our best performances after chillys acl year have come with a back 4 when we create and overload in midfield which leads to more spaces between the lines. Unfortunately our profligate attackers have spurned most resulting chances but at least they were created . 

[Superblue 6,372]

I think we'll see more use of the back 4 as the season wears on.

For me this weekend just continued to prove with the United and West Ham results that I don't think the teams below us are capable and consistent enough to go on sustained runs of wins that we can't match or better in the second half of this season, let alone 2 teams doing so. 

Obviously we need to start picking up and improving our form now but we've now played Liverpool and City twice, and after Brighton this week I think the only other team in the top 10 we have to play away are United. On paper, our fixture list for the remainder of the season should be a lot more kinder than the teams chasing us.

I think a back 4 would have left us far more exposed against City and a back 3 was the safe call, but against most other teams in the league it could be an option to get the attack firing a little more with an extra attacking body. 

[Jase 43,479]

6 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Although to be fair he's actually been one of the few players to remain fit throughout the last few weeks, he regularly seems to pick up niggles and muscle injuries which hampers any progress he appears to be making. 

Pulisic has had only ONE notable injury since late November 2020 and it wasn't even due to his body breaking down like it has many times before! Otherwise, he has been available for selection and he hasn't come close to replicating the form he showed during Project Restart, which at this point looked like a purple patch and nothing else.

6 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

People are overreacting with the lineup. Lukaku for Havertz is only surprise for me.

When we beat them in the league last season front 3 was Pulisic, Ziyech and Werner. CHO came from the bench. Mount and Havertz did not play at all. In that game Alonso and Gilmour also started!

Azpi as wing back assisted for Ziyech goal, and Werner for Alonso winner. Just like in cup when Werner assisted another Ziyech goal against them. Would also start Jorginho from this point of view.

But biggest problem was approach not lineup.

The approach was probably the same as last season and not saying we would have 100% won but when you select the wrong players to execute the plan, then we ended up with what we saw on Saturday.

Only one of our attackers started all those 3 wins last season and played a key part in the tactical plan, including all the winning goals and yet was on the bench.

If we go further, another of our attackers started in 2 of the wins last season, was key in them and contributed an assist to a winning goal and yet was on the bench. Then another one, who scored a winning goal and was key in a cup final, was on the bench. 

Pulisic may have started in the same fixture last season but he did nothing in that game and wasn't a key part in any of those wins. Heck, he has been underwhelming since Project Restart. You may say he scored against Liverpool recently but outside of that, he did nothing in that game and was non-existent in his last outing against a non-league side before Saturday. Ended up doing zilch on Saturday anyway.

Ziyech starting, that I can still understand, as he has been decent recently (and he scored twice against the same team last season) but then those performances came from the right and Tuchel decided to stick him out on the left on Saturday. 

[Tomo 21,751]

On 16/01/2022 at 13:28, Clockwork said:

Disagree, the way Chillwill and Reece were scoring was not sustainable. Their goals were a big reason for our good start.

I disliked the Lukaku signing as much as anyone, and no doubt we are better without him but forward plays continue to be a big challenge with or without him.

 

If they were fluke goals I'd agree but they were practically playing like number 10s in possession and getting into the right areas.

Many thought Trent and Robertson's freak productivity wasn't sustainable and look at them now.

Not saying we don't need a couple of the forward player's to step up we very much do but I don't think that was a fluke purple patch from those two, far from it.

[Blue Armour 4,436]

20 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

To be fair Ziyech started and scored in two of the wins against City last season so at least there's previous form against the opposition with that choice.

Pulisic is the strange one. I think Tuchel expected we'd be playing a good chunk of the game on the counter and therefore a quicker player would be needed who could support or even run beyond Lukaku. I would have chosen Timo for that role, but has only recently returned from covid and maybe Tuchel felt Pulisic therefore was the better option for that role.

I personally am not sold on Pulisic the most out of all our attackers. He had a real purple patch after lockdown a couple of years ago but has not kicked on and in my opinion regressed a lot. Although to be fair he's actually been one of the few players to remain fit throughout the last few weeks, he regularly seems to pick up niggles and muscle injuries which hampers any progress he appears to be making. 

At least with Werner and Mount their pressing and willingness to work for the team can go for them when they're attacking play is inconsistent. Havertz has the capability of linking play and making others around him better and Ziyech offers something different to the rest with his passing range when he's playing well. I also think that whilst CHO can be incredibly frustrating at times, he always seems more willing to get involved in play and on the ball.

Unfortunately when Pulisic isn't contributing much in attack he is far more anonymous in my opinion then the rest and for me, he'd be the first player I would look at as 'disposable' if we were to look at attacking options in the summer.

If you look at Ziyech and Pulisic individually, yes, there seems to be merit in including at least one of them. As you mentioned rightly, Ziyech has some history against them. Pulisic too, with his speed has got behind the City back line before to score.

It's the combination of having two of them together with Lukaku that bothered me, because like you said later, their work rate is poor compared to either Werner or Mount.  And we know Lukaku doesn't press.

[Jase 43,479]

10 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

If you look at Ziyech and Pulisic individually, yes, there seems to be merit in including at least one of them. As you mentioned rightly, Ziyech has some history against them. Pulisic too, with his speed has got behind the City back line before to score.

But that was 2 seasons ago now and it was during his purple patch in the Project Restart period. Also, that goal came from a breakaway in a set piece where City fucked up their defending near the halfway line, IIRC. Any of our other attackers could have been in that situation (whether they score or not is a different matter). Otherwise, he has been largely underwhelming since then. I'm also mystified when people say Pulisic run in behind defences. Yes, he can do that but that's not his natural game. He's one who prefers to receive the ball to feet and then get at players, which again, is something he hasn't done much with at all since the Project Restart. 

[Blue Armour 4,436]

Just now, Jase said:

But that was 2 seasons ago now and it was during his purple patch in the Project Restart period. Also, that goal came from a breakaway in a set piece where City fucked up their defending, IIRC. Any of our other attackers could have been in that situation (whether they score or not is a different matter). Otherwise, he has been largely underwhelming since then. I'm also mystified when people say Pulisic run in behind defences. Yes, he can do that but that's not his natural game. He's one who prefers to receive the ball to feet and then get at players, which again, is something he hasn't done much with at all since the Project Restart. 

Well personally, I wouldn't have wanted him to start at all. Apart from the first half goal against Liverpool there hasn't been much to talk about.

I was trying to look at it from Tuchel's perspective. 

More than him alone starting, I was more bothered about Tuchel opting for that front 3 combo against City.

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Well personally, I wouldn't have wanted him to start at all. Apart from the first half goal against Liverpool there hasn't been much to talk about.

I was trying to look at it from Tuchel's perspective. 

More than him alone starting, I was more bothered about Tuchel opting for that front 3 combo against City.

My guess is that he probably got spooked out by what happened in the reverse fixture and tried to outwit Guardiola by trying something completely different (e.g. the front 3 selection). There's a reason why Guardiola has lost more games against us than any other club and Tuchel went with an untested selection to beat him. 

[Jase 43,479]

Has anyone realized that we have won only 3 of our 11 games against sides currently sitting in the top half of the league? 

[Superblue 6,372]

4 hours ago, Tomo said:

If they were fluke goals I'd agree but they were practically playing like number 10s in possession and getting into the right areas.

Many thought Trent and Robertson's freak productivity wasn't sustainable and look at them now.

Not saying we don't need a couple of the forward player's to step up we very much do but I don't think that was a fluke purple patch from those two, far from it.

It's not just their attacking output being exceptional during that period, but it's the athleticism and pace that both possess to get up and down the pitch. 

Both being able to play that high up the pitch but have the speed and fitness to also get back into position to defend is what is the problem now with the system. With Chilwell and James we basically had five attackers and then one of Kova or Kante being a roaming midfielder to help hunt the ball high. Alonso and Azpilicueta simply don't have the same physical capabilities to play box to box, and I don't think either is as efficient once in attack.

Their absence has definitely showed that we need adequate replacements for them because if Tuchel wants the back 3 to be his favoured formation the wing backs arguably are the most important part of the team.

[ZAPHOD2319 4,798]

 

[Jase 43,479]

Is Tuchel starting to lose the plot?

He complains about not having 5 subs in the Premier League to make changes but yet, it's two consecutive games now that he waited ages to make changes and that's with just 3 subs.

Does Tuchel also think the Premier League is the Bundesliga or Ligue 1? He keeps rotating the players and making changes to the tactical setups, leading to us not having any sort of consistency whatsoever. Then there's the endless issue of putting square pegs in round holes. There's already been plenty of them but now, it's CHO in a front two with Lukaku and then Werner on the RW in a 4-2-3-1? It feels as though Tuchel wants to be clever and wants to out-tactic the opposition that he ends up overcomplicating things and makes things worse for us, especially this season.