Super Frank Thread

[Special Juan 27,428]

Just now, Jason said:

He's been out of the side and no one is talking about him but the Havertz situation also needs to be addressed. Just like Werner, I don't think Lampard knows how to use Havertz either. Granted, Havertz got COVID-19 but that aside, he has been used in so many different positions and despite his potential, we have yet to really see a game where he has shown what he can do or maybe even offer glimpses of it. It's almost as if Lampard bought them to just abuse their versatility without any actual idea how to get the best out of them. I seriously want to know what Lampard told those two when trying to persuade them to join us.

If you'd of seen my posts you will see I have mentioned a lot regarding Havertz.

I actually don't think it's just Havertz all this, and granted he's been pretty average at best since he signed. Like you mentioned it's as if FL is abusing their so called versatility, yet for me both need to be in their relevant positions and that is not wide like he has both him and Werner.

[MoroccanBlue 5,299]

2 hours ago, DDA said:

And contrary to most on here who reject the idea of Simione, I think he would be great to have here. His passion and drive would ensure we never see performances like the one we had to endure the other day.

And accompanied with those performances were unforgivable shitehouse tactics against Juventus in 2018 and getting knocked out and completely outplayed by Leipzig last season. We were out with pitchforks when Conte did the same against City and when we got outplayed Roma. 

We need to continue the work we put in making this club sustainable. One of the German blokes in Nagelsmann or Tuchel for me. 

 

 

[Superblue 6,370]

If the club were to move on from Lampard, then I don't think Tuchel would be the right appointment. Winning trophies with PSG doesn't really mean much with the talent in their squad compared to everyone else in France and when I've watched them they rely far too much on individual quality to win games. It should also be noted that reports are he fell out with Leonardo, and also left Mainz and Dortmund after falling out with the board. I don't think the club would tolerate that type of personality at the club.

Would the club revert back to type and go for a bigger name manager, or would they look at something a little out the box like they did with Lampard? Someone who I really like is Hassenhuttl. He helped the initial build of Leipzig before Nagelsman arrived, and I enjoy the football Southampton try to play under him despite a distinctly average squad at his disposal. I think with a better crop of players he could actually do some really great work.

 

[MoroccanBlue 5,299]

3 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

If the club were to move on from Lampard, then I don't think Tuchel would be the right appointment. Winning trophies with PSG doesn't really mean much with the talent in their squad compared to everyone else in France and when I've watched them they rely far too much on individual quality to win games. It should also be noted that reports are he fell out with Leonardo, and also left Mainz and Dortmund after falling out with the board. I don't think the club would tolerate that type of personality at the club.

Would the club revert back to type and go for a bigger name manager, or would they look at something a little out the box like they did with Lampard? Someone who I really like is Hassenhuttl. He helped the initial build of Leipzig before Nagelsman arrived, and I enjoy the football Southampton try to play under him despite a distinctly average squad at his disposal. I think with a better crop of players he could actually do some really great work.

 

This argument wouldn't of collapsed in the manner it did if you didn't criticise Tuchel for not winning anything then avertedly wanting a manager who also won nothing. 

[Superblue 6,370]

Just now, MoroccanBlue said:

This argument wouldn't of collapsed in the manner it did if you didn't criticise Tuchel for not winning anything then avertedly wanting a manager who also won nothing. 

I didn't criticise Tuchel for not winning anything, I simply mentioned that I wouldn't place winning trophies in France as a "big deal". I'm pretty sure he won the cup too with Dortmund in his time there. 

My arguments against him are more to do that I'm rarely impressed watching PSG play and his last 3 appointments have ended with him leaving under a cloud after disagreements with the board.

With the squad we currently have, I'm not sure whether the experience of winning trophies is as big a need as it was 10 years ago. Someone capable of continuing the development of the young talent we have at the club I think is far more important over the next couple of years. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,299]

9 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Someone capable of continuing the development of the young talent we have at the club I think is far more important over the next couple of years. 

That is exactly what Tuchel is capable of. 

I can say with utmost confidence that if Poch didn't see eye to eye with Levy, he will go to war with Leonardo at PSG. He will virtually have no say in any transfers and is expected to be a Yes man simply put. It's amazing how this is seen as a negative on Tuchel when virtually any manager will experience the same thing. 

[Fernando 6,459]

2 hours ago, DDA said:

Nagelsmann

Hasenhuttl

Bielsa 

And contrary to most on here who reject the idea of Simione, I think he would be great to have here. His passion and drive would ensure we never see performances like the one we had to endure the other day.

 

Don't want Bielsa any more.

i advocate for him years ago before many here knew him but that was a different time because of the way the club was being handled. 

Right now I like the direction that we are going as a club. We are doing the right buys and now need a top coach. It kinds of feels like Raniere before Mourinho came in. 

Lampard is setting the foundations and after him should be the one that takes us to the next level. That has to be only Nagelsmann

[Superblue 6,370]

Just now, MoroccanBlue said:

That is exactly what Tuchel is capable of. 

I haven't said that he's not. However I'm far more impressed with the standard of football Southampton play under Hassenhuttl given the lack of quality in their squad, compared to the standard of football I've seen PSG play in the last season or two, where I feel they get by more often than not on the ridiculous quality of their forward line. Some of this might be to do with the ego and influence those players have over the team, Neymar in particular.

Perhaps PSG was just the wrong club for Tuchel, and the set-up that we have now at the club would be more suited to his strengths.

I think over the past few seasons the vast majority of big names and ego's in our club have been moved on and replaced by a core group of younger players with a lot of talent that needs some time and patience developing.

[Fernando 6,459]

2 hours ago, Mana said:

In all honesty, what are we waiting for. It is clear Lamps is out of his depth and the more we stick with him, the less chance of making top 4.

Either he’s out of his depth or the players no longer believe in the coach.

We may win today, but another defeat will be shortly coming.

If making top 4 is all you worried, then no need to sack Lampard. We will make top 4 again. I have no doubt about that. 

But in the summer we should go for a better manager. Lampard done great with setting up a foundation that the next manager will exploit. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,299]

Just now, Superblue_1986 said:

I haven't said that he's not. However I'm far more impressed with the standard of football Southampton play under Hassenhuttl given the lack of quality in their squad, compared to the standard of football I've seen PSG play in the last season or two, where I feel they get by more often than not on the ridiculous quality of their forward line. Some of this might be to do with the ego and influence those players have over the team, Neymar in particular.

Perhaps PSG was just the wrong club for Tuchel, and the set-up that we have now at the club would be more suited to his strengths.

I think over the past few seasons the vast majority of big names and ego's in our club have been moved on and replaced by a core group of younger players with a lot of talent that needs some time and patience developing.

PSG was always the wrong club for Tuchel. He needs a club with young players where he can implement his ideas and grow them. Not a bunch of primma donnas with massive egos and where the vast majority of control lies with an infamous technical director. Nagelsmann I rate.  I also rate Hassenhuttl. I think the technical ability he's instilled into his team, along with their positional sense (there is always a player open in space) is quality. 

They would have to be my preferred 3. 

[Jype 6,398]

9 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Right now I like the direction that we are going as a club. We are doing the right buys and now need a top coach. It kinds of feels like Raniere before Mourinho came in. 

Lampard is setting the foundations and after him should be the one that takes us to the next level. That has to be only Nagelsmann

This is exactly what I've been saying (probably not here but elsewhere) since Lampard got appointed. I even used the same comparison to Ranieri.

For all his flaws in game management Lampard has been doing some really valuable work in improving the squad with good signings and having integrated some highly rated academy products into the team but all along I've had doubts over whether he's the right man to bring actual success as far as titles are concerned. Right now it's looking likely that he's not that guy but with the work Lampard has done he has at the very least set up the next manager to have a much easier ride. But if Frank goes, the next appointment must be made with taking the current squad into consideration and bring in someone who can make the most of the team without having to do a complete overhaul once again to suit the playing style of the manager.

Unlike most here seem to, I still haven't quite given up on Lampard because up until a few weeks ago I thought the season was going quite well and I was seeing clear progress from last season (especially defending and set plays) but the last 4-5 games have been horrible and something must change fast, starting from today. 

[Superblue 6,370]

I still think Lampard as manager here is difficult to analyse. There's no doubt that he is still raw as a manager and at present we are suffering from a lack of experience on his behalf, like we did at times last season.

I do think there are some serious mitigating factors when you consider his time here started with taking on a job where we couldn't buy anybody, yet was losing our best player (and arguably the best player in the league during his tenure here) who had carried a pretty average looking side the year prior. It then led to a pandemic mid-season (and arguably just at a time when we were starting to hit a purple patch of form) which shut football down for months, to then have to contend with a restart with no fans and a number of Covid related considerations to training, preparation, etc. Despite spending some big money this summer, we've also had to try and bed in a number of new players with no pre season and hardly any time to work on that training aspect as we've been playing 3 times a week for most of the season.

I think all of the above is a lot for an experienced manager to handle, let alone one with a couple of years.

The biggest saving grace for Lampard at present is that no club has really grabbed the opportunity this season to pull away, and we're still very much in the hunt despite a poor run of form. If we'd beaten Arsenal we would be sitting third right now, instead of 8th. The league is still so tight. Spurs are on a worse run than us since we played them, Liverpool in recent weeks have drawn with Fulham, Brighton and West Brom, City struggled early on, United have been extremely fortunate with getting results which their standard of football hasn't deserved. 

Ultimately I think the jury is out on Lampard. I think it is easy to forget the positives of his time here so far when we've had a really poor run of form. However, such a run (similar to patches last season) has to question his tactics and ability to get the best out of the players at his disposal. I think Werner and Havertz were brought originally with a different idea in mind for Lampard, but he's found a better overall balance with the 4-3-3 during the season which has come at the expense of Werner and Havertz in particular not being utilised in what would probably be their strongest positions.

I have no question whatsoever however that Lampard was the right appointment at the time for us. He helped the club reach top 4 last season which I think many didn't expect, whilst also finally bringing through some academy players into the first team and seemingly breaking that ceiling that was once there for academy players to make it here. And from what has been said, he seems to have been a huge draw in convincing the players we signed this summer to join the club when we may not have been as an attractive option previously. I think a base has been created in the last 18 months that he deserves a lot of credit for, moving on from not just Hazard but big dressing room influences which were on the decline like David Luiz, Willian, Pedro, etc and bringing in a much younger, exciting group of players which can hopefully develop into something special. Whether he's the right man to take that group to the next level though at the moment is unfortunately questionable.

[killer1257 3,282]

 

 

 

PSG was always the wrong club for Tuchel. He needs a club with young players where he can implement his ideas and grow them. Not a bunch of primma donnas with massive egos and where the vast majority of control lies with an infamous technical director. Nagelsmann I rate.  I also rate Hassenhuttl. I think the technical ability he's instilled into his team, along with their positional sense (there is always a player open in space) is quality. 

They would have to be my preferred 3. 

 

Btw, he had many problems in BVB. He had an dispute with BVBs head scout about an transfer and they did not agree and Tuchel wanted him out. That guy scouted for instance kagawa and Lewy. He criticised Hummels in front of the media and that is when things turned against him. He did also not nominate Nuri Sahin in the German Cup, even though he was playing good before that and Reus and Schmelzer said publicly that. Schmelzer said that he does not understand Tuchels decision and the whole team stands behind Sahin. They actually won the German cup and they said that after the match.

Tuchel does not get the respect from players. Probably toxic environment and big players don't respect coaches like Mourinho, AVB, Nagelsmann and Tuchel because they never achieved anything as a player. Mbappe already made fun of Nagelsmann when they played against Leipzig,but he would have never made fun of Zidane, Lampard or Pirlo. I can guarantee you that.

 

So basically, Tuchel did not even do that well at BVB, but he was great at Mainz

 

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[Jase 43,479]

7 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I still think Lampard as manager here is difficult to analyse. There's no doubt that he is still raw as a manager and at present we are suffering from a lack of experience on his behalf, like we did at times last season.

I do think there are some serious mitigating factors when you consider his time here started with taking on a job where we couldn't buy anybody, yet was losing our best player (and arguably the best player in the league during his tenure here) who had carried a pretty average looking side the year prior. It then led to a pandemic mid-season (and arguably just at a time when we were starting to hit a purple patch of form) which shut football down for months, to then have to contend with a restart with no fans and a number of Covid related considerations to training, preparation, etc. Despite spending some big money this summer, we've also had to try and bed in a number of new players with no pre season and hardly any time to work on that training aspect as we've been playing 3 times a week for most of the season.

I think all of the above is a lot for an experienced manager to handle, let alone one with a couple of years.

Not saying having an experienced manager is foolproof but at least an experienced manager has something to fall back on during tough times. Lampard doesn't have that. We have a somewhat inexperienced team but we also have an inexperienced manager. This is basically a case of the blind leading the blind.

19 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Ultimately I think the jury is out on Lampard. I think it is easy to forget the positives of his time here so far when we've had a really poor run of form. However, such a run (similar to patches last season) has to question his tactics and ability to get the best out of the players at his disposal. I think Werner and Havertz were brought originally with a different idea in mind for Lampard, but he's found a better overall balance with the 4-3-3 during the season which has come at the expense of Werner and Havertz in particular not being utilised in what would probably be their strongest positions.

That's just stupid, no? How can Lampard spend 100 million on new players to fit into his Plan A, only to suddenly change to Plan B and have no clue how to fit them in? What kind of planning is that!?

[Superblue 6,370]

14 minutes ago, Jason said:

That's just stupid, no? How can Lampard spend 100 million on new players to fit into his Plan A, only to suddenly change to Plan B and have no clue how to fit them in? What kind of planning is that!?

I personally think that at the start of the season if everybody was fit, Lampard would have gone 4-2-3-1 with Werner central (Pulisic and Ziyech on the wings) and Havertz in the '10' role. In my opinion that is what he had in mind when making the signings.

We may end up going back to that idea, particularly given the poor run of form.

However I think after the early season struggles defensively, the 4-3-3 brought far more balance in both areas of the team and up to the Everton game I think the change was fully justified.

It questions Havertz role in the side, although I think pre-covid he had a couple of games playing in the midfield 3 and looked like he was coming along nicely. He can play that role in my opinion but needs the time to get used to the pace of the league. I think currently he'd be more suited to playing a '10' role if that was available to him simply because he'd have more freedom to drift and pick up space for himself to operate.

Werner is obviously struggling at present and like you and others, I think he should be playing centrally long term. However we were winning games well for a good stretch where he was playing left side and I don't think he was playing particularly poor. It's not necessarily his natural position but at the time Chilwell and Mount were operating a lot more efficiently on the left hand side which gave Werner more freedom to roam centrally. The creativity of Ziyech as a left footed right sided player also played to Werner's strengths of spotting runs from wide to central positions too. Obviously Ziyech being injured hasn't helped, but the likes of Chilwell and Mount haven't been performing as well in recent games either. Pulisic looks like he is starting to hit a bit of form finally after a start-stop season so far, and with CHO back and Ziyech pending, I'm hoping either Lampard plays Werner central or he gives him a couple of games from the bench and brings him on in the last half hour against a tiring team which may work best to getting his confidence back which is clearly shredded at the moment.

[Atomiswave 6,072]

1 hour ago, Fernando said:

If making top 4 is all you worried, then no need to sack Lampard. We will make top 4 again. I have no doubt about that. 

But in the summer we should go for a better manager. Lampard done great with setting up a foundation that the next manager will exploit. 

Nahh nahh mate thats a huge risk to take. Are you willing to bet good money on us getting top4 this season with FL? I will def not thats for sure. This season we could easily easily miss out, more chance we miss out than the other way imo. I would take Allegry till come summer and then evaluate.

[Jase 43,479]

48 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I personally think that at the start of the season if everybody was fit, Lampard would have gone 4-2-3-1 with Werner central (Pulisic and Ziyech on the wings) and Havertz in the '10' role. In my opinion that is what he had in mind when making the signings.

We may end up going back to that idea, particularly given the poor run of form.

However I think after the early season struggles defensively, the 4-3-3 brought far more balance in both areas of the team and up to the Everton game I think the change was fully justified.

It questions Havertz role in the side, although I think pre-covid he had a couple of games playing in the midfield 3 and looked like he was coming along nicely. He can play that role in my opinion but needs the time to get used to the pace of the league. I think currently he'd be more suited to playing a '10' role if that was available to him simply because he'd have more freedom to drift and pick up space for himself to operate.

Werner is obviously struggling at present and like you and others, I think he should be playing centrally long term. However we were winning games well for a good stretch where he was playing left side and I don't think he was playing particularly poor. It's not necessarily his natural position but at the time Chilwell and Mount were operating a lot more efficiently on the left hand side which gave Werner more freedom to roam centrally. The creativity of Ziyech as a left footed right sided player also played to Werner's strengths of spotting runs from wide to central positions too. Obviously Ziyech being injured hasn't helped, but the likes of Chilwell and Mount haven't been performing as well in recent games either. Pulisic looks like he is starting to hit a bit of form finally after a start-stop season so far, and with CHO back and Ziyech pending, I'm hoping either Lampard plays Werner central or he gives him a couple of games from the bench and brings him on in the last half hour against a tiring team which may work best to getting his confidence back which is clearly shredded at the moment.

I'm not convinced for one second given Lampard has been making strange tactical decisions and has been playing square pegs in round hole. He went overboard with the chopping and changing last season but at least he was flexible. This season? He seems to hellbent to just stick with the 4-3-3 even after hitting a period where it's not quite working as well as before. 

[Vesper 28,802]

he needs to go

absolutely out of his depth