Super Frank Thread

[communicate 2,703]

4 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

That's why he's zonal marking in there. 

Watching him, I'd worry that he would be ball watching and not track or successfully mark his man. 

He's played a lot of games this season and fulfilled the same role defending set pieces which to me says Lampard can't trust him to mark and defend man to man.

Who? 

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

4 hours ago, Jason said:

It's no wonder we can't defend at all when Lampard is saying things like this...

FUCKING HELL!

That is odd. Actually it isnt an odd comment, it is incredibly mind boggling. Andre Villas-Boas wouldnt even stoop to saying something like that when it is so clear there is more to it than a team being taller than us. Or have we been playing taller teams most games this season then because defending set plays has been a major issue for us.
 

If FL truely believes what he has said there then I don’t know what to expect. I know we lack height in comparison to previous teams but Andreas, Tomori, Rudiger, Zouma, Alonso, Tammy, Giroud and Barkley have all featured regularly across parts of the season and they are all 6 ft plus. Even if there is teams who have more height than us several other teams find a way to deal with that. They have done before us and will do after. It just seems like a very lazy answer to give or he’s deflecting it to protect his own arse or the players. It is clear as day we need to work on defensive set pieces... it has been since the first weeks of the season. I seen a stat in Feb that we had conceded 80 corners which was lowest amount but had conceded 6 goals from those which is 7.5% - the highest % of anybody in the league. Not sure where to find most recent ones but wont be good reading Id imagine.

[Tomo 21,733]

Usually after a bad result has particularly annoyed me I eventually look at it in a bit more context and feel a bit better on refection, not today, if anything it's got me even more wound up.

The main reason being it was totally avoidable, I have got a bit of stick for being critical despite the three wins last week but I was doing it for a reason and that was because I could see a night like this coming from Mars. Even if we got away with it last night (which we nearly did as Giroud should have scored near the end) I still would have felt down as it was only kicking the can down the road, make no mistake this was coming, if it didn't happen tonight it would have been Bramal Lane or Selhurst Park (possibly even Watford at home), still could be if no lessons are learned!

 If that was our best line up I'd suck it up until there's a chance to change things, but it wasn't, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER who was part of that incredible smashing of Everton (which was probably our best and most complete performance since the same fixture in Conte's title season) have been available since the restart, why haven't we seen that lineup (exception being Pulisic in instead of Pedro) again? and worse than that, why has the catalyst for that display only been seen in 50 minutes out of position in 4 games? That game (and the Liverpool game) were beautiful, it looked like we finally found our best core of players, best system, the style of play was mesmerising and it didn't even last another game, ripped up for shit on a stick football where a player that wasn't even playing for us that afternoon is now having to bail us out constantly, just how?

Another thing really annoying me are the CB issues. I'm not Zouma's biggest fan but him and Rudiger were slowly forming a really good partnership before the break, WHY THE HELL HAS THAT BEEN TINKERED WITH? I'm one of the minority that think while our CBs will never be world class (apart from potentially Fik) they've been dealt a bad hand with Kepa's form and constantly being rotated about, pick Zouma with either Fik or Rudi keep them there and all off a sudden things won't look too bad.

Don't get me started (again) on Kante walking into the side no matter what, it was bad enough earlier on in the season but Frank still hasn't learned his lesson. The fact he's still being selected means either Lampard genuinely thinks we're actually better with him in the team despite all the evidence and metrics saying otherwise or he's playing him because of what he was/is at his very best. I hate being critical of him (Kante) as he's one of my favourite all time players for the club and I'll always appreciate the difference he made when he arrived but that's one thing with me, I'm so club/team orientated that I don't have trouble letting my head rule my heart. Also with Mount in the side, we don't even miss Kante's engine as much as we use too.

Then there's the regista issue. Some people don't seem to want to embrace the idea of a regista because they're all on the "traditional DM" idea and can't be moved, but it's actually one of the most important positions in the modern game, having players who can dictate from deep at a high level are absolute gold dust in the modern game, we've got not only one but two and neither are being played, and in favour of putting a box to box player there (therefore neglecting his best attribute), that's Mourinho lite.

Frank's a young manager so I will give him the time to fix this shit especially as I have seen serious promise with him (if this was an experienced manager pulling this I'd be going full Claude) but if these tactics and selections are the "new normal" I'll give him till Christmas.

[Johnnyeye 7,440]

28 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Usually after a bad result has particularly annoyed me I eventually look at it in a bit more context and feel a bit better on refection, not today, if anything it's got me even more wound up.

The main reason being it was totally avoidable, I have got a bit of stick for being critical despite the three wins last week but I was doing it for a reason and that was because I could see a night like this coming from Mars. Even if we got away with it last night (which we nearly did as Giroud should have scored near the end) I still would have felt down as it was only kicking the can down the road, make no mistake this was coming, if it didn't happen tonight it would have been Bramal Lane or Selhurst Park (possibly even Watford at home), still could be if no lessons are learned!

 If that was our best line up I'd suck it up until there's a chance to change things, but it wasn't, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER who was part of that incredible smashing of Everton (which was probably our best and most complete performance since the same fixture in Conte's title season) have been available since the restart, why haven't we seen that lineup (exception being Pulisic in instead of Pedro) again? and worse than that, why has the catalyst for that display only been seen in 50 minutes out of position in 4 games? That game (and the Liverpool game) were beautiful, it looked like we finally found our best core of players, best system, the style of play was mesmerising and it didn't even last another game, ripped up for shit on a stick football where a player that wasn't even playing for us that afternoon is now having to bail us out constantly, just how?

Another thing really annoying me are the CB issues. I'm not Zouma's biggest fan but him and Rudiger were slowly forming a really good partnership before the break, WHY THE HELL HAS THAT BEEN TINKERED WITH? I'm one of the minority that think while our CBs will never be world class (apart from potentially Fik) they've been dealt a bad hand with Kepa's form and constantly being rotated about, pick Zouma with either Fik or Rudi keep them there and all off a sudden things won't look too bad.

Don't get me started (again) on Kante walking into the side no matter what, it was bad enough earlier on in the season but Frank still hasn't learned his lesson. The fact he's still being selected means either Lampard genuinely thinks we're actually better with him in the team despite all the evidence and metrics saying otherwise or he's playing him because of what he was/is at his very best. I hate being critical of him as he's one of my favourite all time players for the club and I'll always appreciate the difference he made when he arrived but that's one thing with me, I'm so club/team orientated that I don't have trouble letting my head rule my heart. Also with Mount in the side, we don't even miss Kante's engine as much as we use too.

Then there's the regista issue. Some people don't seem to want to embrace the idea of a regista because they're all on the "traditional DM" idea and can't be moved, but it's actually one of the most important positions in the modern game, having players who can dictate from deep at a high level are absolute gold dust in the modern game, we've got not only one but two and neither are being played, and in favour of putting a box to box player there (therefore neglecting his best attribute), that's Mourinho lite.

Frank's a young manager so I will give him the time to fix this shit especially as I have seen serious promise with him (if this was an experienced manager pulling this I'd be going full Claude) but if these tactics and selections are the "new normal" I'll give him till Christmas.

i totally agree with you mate, i would switch Pedro with Pulisic and Billy with Jorginho, maybe Barkley with Kovacic/Kante, any toughts?

[Tomo 21,733]

7 minutes ago, Johnnyeye said:

i totally agree with you mate, i would switch Pedro with Pulisic and Billy with Jorginho, maybe Barkley with Kovacic/Kante, any toughts?

I would maybe experiment more with Ross there as i kind of like the idea of a Jorgi/Gilmour, Ziyech, Mount midfield in certain games next season. I think Frank may be thinking similar but unfortunately Kante instead of Jorgi/Gilmour. So in that sense Barkley is playing Hakim, so to speak.

[Johnnyeye 7,440]

11 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I would maybe experiment more with Ross there as i kind of like the idea of a Jorgi/Gilmour, Ziyech, Mount midfield in certain games next season. I think Frank may be thinking similar but unfortunately Kante instead of Jorgi/Gilmour. So in that sense Barkley is playing Hakim, so to speak.

i see your point, next season Ziyech will definitely offer us different options and also Werner can play in any front 3 position, it could be something like this:

             Tammy

Werner              Pulisic

              Ziyech

Mount               Jorginho/Billy

or

              Werner

Ziyech                  Pulisic

            Mount/Barkley

Kante/Kova            Jorginho/Billy

 

what do you think?

[Tomo 21,733]

6 minutes ago, Johnnyeye said:

i see your point, next season Ziyech will definitely offer us different options and also Werner can play in any front 3 position, it could be something like this:

             Tammy

Werner              Pulisic

              Ziyech

Mount               Jorginho/Billy

or

              Werner

Ziyech                  Pulisic

            Mount/Barkley

Kante/Kova            Jorginho/Billy

 

what do you think?

I initially/lazily assumed Werner would be a LW but now i'm pretty sure he will play up top, if nothing else the progress Pulisic is making see's to that.

[Johnnyeye 7,440]

3 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I initially/lazily assumed Werner would be a LW but now i'm pretty sure he will play up top, if nothing else the progress Pulisic is making see's to that.

i agree, Timo is the best option we have up top right now, lets see how Tammy responds to that, he will need to step up his game

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

To put our position into perspective. Klopp finished 8th in his first season with Liverpool with transfers (and a similar mediocre squad as ours now). That Liverpool side lost 10 times, just as we did so far and finished on 60points which is surely less than we will finish. The season thereafter they had 76 points and 6 losses, scraping 4th place, again with transfers.

We should give Lamps time. He has committed amateur mistakes that are typical of a rookie manager cos he is a rookie manager. But Klopp was already a veteran and they struggled badly defensively in his first two years.

Lampard has massively overachieved by even putting us in this position. My expectation for the season was 6th and I still think that is where we end up. But we also managed a cup run and got out of the CL group stages. All in all this is already a solid season. And if we lose out on a top4 palce then to settled teams which are in better shape than we are.

As annoying as this set piece shit is, we should give it time. We are building a dynasty . After yesterday I am convinced Kepa and Rüdiger can not be part of this. neither can Alonso. But before we have replaced them we will leak goals irrelevant of how good we practise defensive routines. If Kepa decides to try to collect the ball for a first time in ages while having no chance of reaching it, this is not a coaching error it is an individual error. Same as Christensen stopping to his run ball watching. The last one maybe was a tactical mistake if Alonso was instructed to stay up, no idea.

Anyway, we should stop overreacting. I think there are some mental issues in the team which result in the same mistakes being repeated over and over again. Has to do with confidence and I dont think this can be fixed from within.

 

[Johnnyeye 7,440]

4 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

To put our position into perspective. Klopp finished 8th in his first season with Liverpool with transfers (and a similar mediocre squad as ours now). That Liverpool side lost 10 times, just as we did so far and finished on 60points which is surely less than we will finish. The season thereafter they had 76 points and 6 losses, scraping 4th place, again with transfers.

We should give Lamps time. He has committed amateur mistakes that are typical of a rookie manager cos he is a rookie manager. But Klopp was already a veteran and they struggled badly defensively in his first two years.

Lampard has massively overachieved by even putting us in this position. My expectation for the season was 6th and I still think that is where we end up. But we also managed a cup run and got out of the CL group stages. All in all this is already a solid season. And if we lose out on a top4 palce then to settled teams which are in better shape than we are.

As annoying as this set piece shit is, we should give it time. We are building a dynasty . After yesterday I am convinced Kepa and Rüdiger can not be part of this. neither can Alonso. But before we have replaced them we will leak goals irrelevant of how good we practise defensive routines. If Kepa decides to try to collect the ball for a first time in ages while having no chance of reaching it, this is not a coaching error it is an individual error. Same as Christensen stopping to his run ball watching. The last one maybe was a tactical mistake if Alonso was instructed to stay up, no idea.

Anyway, we should stop overreacting. I think there are some mental issues in the team which result in the same mistakes being repeated over and over again. Has to do with confidence and I dont think this can be fixed from within.

 

well said mate, we definitely overachieved this season, and despite many flaws in this squad, there are clearly great signs for the future. If we are patient enough and add the right pieces it will reap rewards, Lamps deserves time and patience from the fans and club, and like you said, he is a rookie manager.

[Tomo 21,733]

34 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

To put our position into perspective. Klopp finished 8th in his first season with Liverpool with transfers (and a similar mediocre squad as ours now). That Liverpool side lost 10 times, just as we did so far and finished on 60points which is surely less than we will finish. The season thereafter they had 76 points and 6 losses, scraping 4th place, again with transfers.

We should give Lamps time. He has committed amateur mistakes that are typical of a rookie manager cos he is a rookie manager. But Klopp was already a veteran and they struggled badly defensively in his first two years.

Lampard has massively overachieved by even putting us in this position. My expectation for the season was 6th and I still think that is where we end up. But we also managed a cup run and got out of the CL group stages. All in all this is already a solid season. And if we lose out on a top4 palce then to settled teams which are in better shape than we are.

As annoying as this set piece shit is, we should give it time. We are building a dynasty . After yesterday I am convinced Kepa and Rüdiger can not be part of this. neither can Alonso. But before we have replaced them we will leak goals irrelevant of how good we practise defensive routines. If Kepa decides to try to collect the ball for a first time in ages while having no chance of reaching it, this is not a coaching error it is an individual error. Same as Christensen stopping to his run ball watching. The last one maybe was a tactical mistake if Alonso was instructed to stay up, no idea.

Anyway, we should stop overreacting. I think there are some mental issues in the team which result in the same mistakes being repeated over and over again. Has to do with confidence and I dont think this can be fixed from within.

 

Thing is I fully accept this is a process infact I've been branded all sorts for excusing many defeats this season.

But the defeats/draws i "glossed over" were ones we played quite well in (even some we didn't) and we didn't win purely because we weren't there yet. Had we yesterday played Gilmour/Jorgi in the base of the midfield, and we tried to play our game of play out from the back, pass and move etc but we were done because we lacked a bit of experience and know how at this stage (like say what happened at home against Arsenal where I went on a one man crusade against people who called that performance shit) then I'd be as happy as it's possible to be after seeing a reverse.

It's the fact we've seemed to have abandoned what we're trying to build that's the crux of frustration for me, we're not bothering to play out anymore, we're relying on individual brilliance and even the minutes for the youth players are drying up.

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

12 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Thing is I fully accept this is a process infact I've been branded all sorts for excusing many defeats this season.

But the defeats/draws i "glossed over" were ones we played quite well in (even some we didn't) and we didn't win purely because we weren't there yet. Had we yesterday played Gilmour/Jorgi in the base of the midfield, and we tried to play our game of play out from the back, pass and move etc but we were done because we lacked a bit of experience and know how at this stage (like say what happened at home against Arsenal where I went on a one man crusade against people who called that performance shit) then I'd be as happy as it's possible to be after seeing a reverse.

It's the fact we've seemed to abandoned what we're trying to build that's the crux of frustration for me, we're not bothering to play out anymore, we're relying on individual brilliance and even the minutes for the youth players are drying up.

This is true. I think Lampard got nervous and wants to finish off the season without risking to expose our defence. It is only natural to rely on experience when its crunch time.

Now we have the worst of both worlds. But Lampard is not an ideologist. I can see him reinstate Jorginho in an instant. He will learn from this. Esp since Jorginho is closest to a leader we have on the field. I am pretty sure we will see him next game vs Watford

Kante is not what he used to be. In his prime he dribbled through pressing opponents with ease and thus broke up the play. Nowadays he just defends. He should be used to see out wins like the way Mourinho used Mikel.

[Jase 43,479]

32 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

As annoying as this set piece shit is, we should give it time. We are building a dynasty . After yesterday I am convinced Kepa and Rüdiger can not be part of this. neither can Alonso. But before we have replaced them we will leak goals irrelevant of how good we practise defensive routines. If Kepa decides to try to collect the ball for a first time in ages while having no chance of reaching it, this is not a coaching error it is an individual error. Same as Christensen stopping to his run ball watching. The last one maybe was a tactical mistake if Alonso was instructed to stay up, no idea.

This would have been a valid point if the defensive issues hadn't been a thing with Lampard since his Derby days. The defenders are bad, the keeper is bad and Lampard as well as the coaching staff seem clueless in making sure we look competent defensively at the very least. 

[killer1257 3,282]

This would have been a valid point if the defensive issues hadn't been a thing with Lampard since his Derby days. The defenders are bad, the keeper is bad and Lampard as well as the coaching staff seem clueless in making sure we look competent defensively at the very least. 

Did Lamps have good CBs as at Derby?
Klopp seemed clueless too with the garbage defenders he had at Liverpool

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[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, killer1257 said:

Did Lamps have good CBs as at Derby?
Klopp seemed clueless too with the garbage defenders he had at Liverpool

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Teams with worse defenders than us have defender better as a unit than us. 

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

Just now, Jason said:

This would have been a valid point if the defensive issues hadn't been a thing with Lampard since his Derby days. The defenders are bad, the keeper is bad and Lampard as well as the coaching staff seem clueless in making sure we look competent defensively at the very least. 

Then again the same was true for his Derby defense and goalkeeper. in fact most defenses in the championship are weird. Just look at the table, all teams up to 6th place a gd of less than 10. Derby this season have conceded 52 goals already in 40 games which is just 2 less than under Lamps for the whole season. Sure he is not a good defensive coach and i miss the times where you could rely on our defense to not concede stupid goals and shit away winning positions constantly. Give a not so good manager shit defenders and it will be chaos. Give a shit coach like Avram Grant a world class defense and it will be alright. Jürgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola are not exactly great defensive coaches either. They only won stuff as soon as they got a world class goalkeeper and half-decent defenders. Our current defenders wont fix it. Lampard wont fix it. It has to be an external solution. Either sign some decent players or hire a better defensive coach (which i am sure Lampard will not give himself the blemish of doing) or get a manager like Conte who prioritizes defence and play boring football again. I am fine with any solution but i prefer the second in the short term and the first in the long term.

[Special Juan 27,424]

Shot as much money at him as you look but him and Jody need to sort out the organisational side of things.

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

Then again the same was true for his Derby defense and goalkeeper. in fact most defenses in the championship are weird. Just look at the table, all teams up to 6th place a gd of less than 10. Derby this season have conceded 52 goals already in 40 games which is just 2 less than under Lamps for the whole season. Sure he is not a good defensive coach and i miss the times where you could rely on our defense to not concede stupid goals and shit away winning positions constantly. Give a not so good manager shit defenders and it will be chaos. Give a shit coach like Avram Grant a world class defense and it will be alright. Jürgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola are not exactly great defensive coaches either. They only won stuff as soon as they got a world class goalkeeper and half-decent defenders. Our current defenders wont fix it. Lampard wont fix it. It has to be an external solution. Either sign some decent players or hire a better defensive coach (which i am sure Lampard will not give himself the blemish of doing) or get a manager like Conte who prioritizes defence and play boring football again. I am fine with any solution but i prefer the second in the short term and the first in the long term.

Could care less about what Klopp and Guardiola do. The point is defensive issues has been a problem for Lampard since last season and when you listen to his post-match comments, it is concerning. Every time, he'll almost just brush off the issues like they are nothing and/or blame it on something else. He's almost showing the same negligence or ignorance towards defending like Brendan Rodgers did at Liverpool. Poor defending issues will be Lampard's downfall as a manager if he doesn't sort it out.