The Conte Thread

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

  On 03/11/2016 at 20:32, DYC. said:

ZOS is right. I don't care how good the results are right now, Chelsea's use of the ball has to improve. That doesn't mean aiming to keep 60%+ possession but to not give the ball away cheaply and pick moments to keep the ball. Failing to do so will eventually hurt you because it's quite tiring having to chase the ball and you can make mistakes. And I'm quite sure Conte knows that as well.

Conte did the right thing. Things weren't going well so he fixed the defence and the off the ball positioning. That's where it starts. Chelsea exude more confidence now and teams won't feel as confident of going at Chelsea. Now you start to improve the play on the ball.

Unless Conte is going down the Atletico route but I think a more controlled approach is needed to achieve sustained succes.

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While there are other factors that play a role in our low possession i think the biggest one is the lack of real quality passers in our back 3 and 2 man midfield. Of those 5 how many would you call great passers. David Luiz, and that's it. Kante does a good job too but he's not great at it.

Even if we count Kante that's 2 players out of 5. That's not enough for a top team. Imo we need to look for a LCB that can rival the passing ability of a david Luiz while still doing what is required defensively. Same in our midfield. We need someone in there that's a great passer while still able to do the dirty work. Verratti for example. 

I'm sure Conte will be working on improving our possession but there's only soo much you can do as a manager. You can train as much as you like you'll never get the likes of Cahill, Azpi or Matic to pass the way David Luiz passes. 

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 03/11/2016 at 22:38, Belgiannutt said:

While there are other factors that play a role in our low possession i think the biggest one is the lack of real quality passers in our back 3 and 2 man midfield. Of those 5 how many would you call great passers. David Luiz, and that's it. Kante does a good job too but he's not great at it.

Even if we count Kante that's 2 players out of 5. That's not enough for a top team. Imo we need to look for a LCB that can rival the passing ability of a david Luiz while still doing what is required defensively. Same in our midfield. We need someone in there that's a great passer while still able to do the dirty work. Verratti for example. 

I'm sure Conte will be working on improving our possession but there's only soo much you can do as a manager. You can train as much as you like you'll never get the likes of Cahill, Azpi or Matic to pass the way David Luiz passes. 

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You can't complain about possession in a two-three game sample size. Prior to the formation change we were a top 4 team in possession av per game. Since we went 3-4-3, we've been 8th. We've also scored very early goals in almost all games in  that time span which has contributed to us playing counter-attack.  I'm personally not a fan of playing on the counter and I don't think this team can play that way conistently (and shouldn't) but neither is Conte. http://www.football-italia.net/85476/conte-i-dont-do-counter-attacks He adapts his stategy to the requirement of the game. For instance, we scored early against Leicester and continued to dominate possession and take the game to them. This is because Leicester themselves are a counter-attacking outfit and it was the right tactical approach.

As for the point about having real quality passers, the stats disagree. Kante is averaging a 90% pass success rate this season and Matic 87% pass success rate. They are rarely giving away the ball and they aren't simply making routine back and sideways passes either. Matic is a fairly ambitious passer. I think you're confusing two different things here. There is a difference between "a real quality passer" and having a comprehensive passing range. Kante and Matic are quality passers but they don't have the same depth of passing range as say a Gundogan, Verratti or Fabregas. The question is whether having that type of deep lying playmaker will work in this system or any sort of system Conte is comfortable in. The answer was presented in the case of Fabregas. No. 

And there's no reason now to clamour for deep lying playmakers of that mould. They won't help us win more games or make us a stronger team in our current 3-4-3 system. Teams are struggling to make any progress through our midfield duo. We averaging the least amount of shots faced per game of any team in the league right now. We've kept 4 cleansheets. We're creating many chances and were it not for profligacy, we would have crushed Southampton as well. 

Can things change for the worse with our current system. Yes. Will we continue to perform to this level all season long? No. Can we improve in certain positions? Yes. Right wing. CB. Clearly. But now is not the time to be lusting over other teams' players. Conte is right now is doing an incredible job. Doing what a manager is supposed to do, which is MANAGE and maximize the full potential of what he has, which he has done brilliantly. That should be the major talking point now. His tactical adjustments are worthy of significant praise. 

 

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

From that article, Conte said:

“I do everything except counter-attacks. I do not play on the counter. I never even train counter-attacks. It is not in my concept of football.

“When we have the ball, we have our ideas. When we lose the ball, we try to be tight, press the opposition and try to win it back as soon as possible."

That quote is interesting in light of our last two PL matches were we seemingly seemed happy to grant the opposition the ball, PARTICULARLY in the 1st half till we actually started to dominate more with the ball in the 2nd. I wonder if this is still a reflex from Mourinho's training methods in some of our players or if Conte has changed his concept of football in a span of months. 

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

  On 03/11/2016 at 23:28, MrExcalibur100 said:

You can't complain about possession in a two-three game sample size. Prior to the formation change we were a top 4 team in possession av per game. Since we went 3-4-3, we've been 8th. We've also scored very early goals in almost all games in  that time span which has contributed to us playing on the counter-attack. I'm personally not a fan of playing on the counter and I don't think this team can play that way conistently (and shouldn't) but neither is Conte. http://www.football-italia.net/85476/conte-i-dont-do-counter-attacks He adapts his stategy to the requirement of the game. For instance, we scored early against Leicester and continued to dominate possession and take the game to them. This is because Leicester themselves are a counter-attacking outfit and it was the right tactical approach.

As for the point about having real quality passers, the stats disagree. Kante is averaging a 90% pass success rate this season and Matic 87% pass success rate. They are rarely giving away the ball and they aren't simply making routine back and sideways passes either. Matic is a fairly ambitious passer. I think you're confusing two different things here. There is a difference between "a real quality passer" and having a comprehensive passing range. Kante and Matic are quality passers but they don't have the same depth of passing range as say a Gundogan, Verratti or Fabregas. The question is whether having that type of deep lying playmaker will work in this system or any sort of system Conte is comfortable in. The answer was presented in the case of Fabregas. No. 

And there's no reason now to clamour for deep lying playmakers of that mould. They won't help us win more games or make us a stronger team in our current 3-4-3 system. Teams are struggling to make any progress through our midfield duo. We averaging the least amount of shots faced per game of any team in the league right now. We've kept 4 cleansheets. We're creating many chances and were it not for profligacy, we would have crushed Southampton as well. 

Can things change for the worse with our current system. Yes. Will we continue to perform to this level all season long? No. Can we improve in certain positions? Yes. Right wing. CB. Clearly. But now is not the time to be lusting over other teams' players. Conte is right now is doing an incredible job. Doing what a manager is supposed to do, which is MANAGE and maximize the full potential of what he has, which he has done brilliantly.  

 

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I agree with the first bit. Like i said there are other factors such as like you say we've scored early at times which has allowed us to sit deep and counter.

 

Disagree with your stats. Sorry i find passing success rates to be extremely useless. Kante and Matic might have high succes rate but most of their passes are straightforward. 

Maybe i should have been clearer but i'm indeed talking about passing range. About hitting those 50 yard diagonal balls,  balls over the top, into the corner, finding players in those tight pockets of space.

I'm talking about truly great passers. Right now i feel like the fluidity of the system is doing most of the heavy lifting and allowing Matic and Kante (and the back 3) to play easy and straightforward passes. 

But teams are going to start figuring out ways to deal with us and then we are going to need the players behind the ball to be able to make those quality passes.

 

"The question is whether having that type of deep lying playmaker will work in this system or any sort of system Conte is comfortable in. The answer was presented in the case of Fabregas. No. "

I did say "a great passer that could still do the dirty work". The reason Fabregas isn't playing has nothing to do with him being a DLP and everything to do with him not being able to do the dirty work.

If Fabregas was able to actually do his defensive work then he would be playing instead of Matic. 

 

I agree with the last bit. I think Conte has done an amazing job getting everyone up to their very best. Personally i'd say of all our starters Hazard is probably the only one who still has a higher gear to shift to (2014-2015 form) the rest are all playing at their very best.

But that's kinda the thing though. The way we've played so far is imo close to the best we'll ever see from this group of players so in order to improve even more we're going to need to buy quality players.

We can't settle we have to keep improving as our aim as a club is to go further then just the PL. 

Imo we can improve in four positions. LCB (Cahill), LWB (Alonso), LDM (Matic) and RAM (Willian & Pedro). I know that it's harsh on Alonso and especially Matic as they've done extremely well but that's just how i see it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 04/11/2016 at 00:23, Belgiannutt said:

I agree with the first bit. Like i said there are other factors such as like you say we've scored early at times which has allowed us to sit deep and counter.

 

Disagree with your stats. Sorry i find passing success rates to be extremely useless. Kante and Matic might have high succes rate but most of their passes are straightforward. 

Maybe i should have been clearer but i'm indeed talking about passing range. About hitting those 50 yard diagonal balls,  balls over the top, into the corner, finding players in those tight pockets of space.

I'm talking about truly great passers. Right now i feel like the fluidity of the system is doing most of the heavy lifting and allowing Matic and Kante (and the back 3) to play easy and straightforward passes. 

But teams are going to start figuring out ways to deal with us and then we are going to need the players behind the ball to be able to make those quality passes.

 

"The question is whether having that type of deep lying playmaker will work in this system or any sort of system Conte is comfortable in. The answer was presented in the case of Fabregas. No. "

I did say "a great passer that could still do the dirty work". The reason Fabregas isn't playing has nothing to do with him being a DLP and everything to do with him not being able to do the dirty work.

If Fabregas was able to actually do his defensive work then he would be playing instead of Matic. 

 

I agree with the last bit. I think Conte has done an amazing job getting everyone up to their very best. Personally i'd say of all our starters Hazard is probably the only one who still has a higher gear to shift to (2014-2015 form) the rest are all playing at their very best.

But that's kinda the thing though. The way we've played so far is imo close to the best we'll ever see from this group of players so in order to improve even more we're going to need to buy quality players.

We can't settle we have to keep improving as our aim as a club is to go further then just the PL. 

Imo we can improve in four positions. LCB (Cahill), LWB (Alonso), LDM (Matic) and RAM (Willian & Pedro). I know that it's harsh on Alonso and especially Matic as they've done extremely well but that's just how i see it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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"While there are other factors that play a role in our low possession i think the biggest one is the lack of real quality passers in our back 3 and 2 man midfield"

(a) You attributed our "low possession" to a lack of real quality passers and as I showed you, Matic and Kante are hardly ever misplacing passes. I'm not sure what having a great passing range has to do with our low possession in a sample size of 3-4 games. We were 4th in the league in possession stats a few months ago. This has more to do with the manager's tactics and not with Kante and Matic's lack of passing range. I also don't see the relevance in pointing out that most of their passes are straightforward (and I see what you're saying but I don't agree they are). Wouldn't that lend credence to the fact that they are in fact not responsible for our "low possession" to begin with? Anyway, I think your whole premise is faulty as it's obvious Kante and Matic aren't responsible for our low possession the last few games.

 "But teams are going to start figuring out ways to deal with us and then we are going to need the players behind the ball to be able to make those quality passes"

(b) Okay. This is the point I have the biggest problem with. Why not we just wait and see if that happens first? I'm not currently understanding this desire to prognosticate the worst possible outcome for us. We're playing well and the team is balanced, which is something that has been an issue for years now with the Azplicueta playing out position madness. It's also not true to assume that the only way to counter-act whatever way you think teams will "deal with us" is by having "quality passers". Wenger has had quality passers in his teams for years and still hasn't won the league in a decade. Pace has always been a stronger factor in championship PL teams than quality passers.

"I did say "a great passer that could still do the dirty work". The reason Fabregas isn't playing has nothing to do with him being a DLP and everything to do with him not being able to do the dirty work"

(c) I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Hazard can't do the "dirty work" but plays every game. Pirlo had similar strengths and weaknesses to Fabregas but was the key cog in Conte's championship winning Juventus teams. You could argue the pace of Serie A is much slower, but Conte didn't even trust him with Kante and Matic at his disposal! The brutal truth is Fabregas is just not that good. For all his passing range,  he's also completely unathletic and laughably slow. 

I agree that we can improve. But I just don't think now is the time to be looking across the road for the next shiny toy we can buy. We have no guarantees of being in the Champions League next season or Hazard staying. And if you really want to bring up names why not try the transfer forum threads? This thread should be about Conte not about who we want to sign next season (In November no less). 

 

 

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 04/11/2016 at 00:23, Belgiannutt said:

I agree with the first bit. Like i said there are other factors such as like you say we've scored early at times which has allowed us to sit deep and counter.

 

Disagree with your stats. Sorry i find passing success rates to be extremely useless. Kante and Matic might have high succes rate but most of their passes are straightforward. 

Maybe i should have been clearer but i'm indeed talking about passing range. About hitting those 50 yard diagonal balls,  balls over the top, into the corner, finding players in those tight pockets of space.

I'm talking about truly great passers. Right now i feel like the fluidity of the system is doing most of the heavy lifting and allowing Matic and Kante (and the back 3) to play easy and straightforward passes. 

But teams are going to start figuring out ways to deal with us and then we are going to need the players behind the ball to be able to make those quality passes.

 

"The question is whether having that type of deep lying playmaker will work in this system or any sort of system Conte is comfortable in. The answer was presented in the case of Fabregas. No. "

I did say "a great passer that could still do the dirty work". The reason Fabregas isn't playing has nothing to do with him being a DLP and everything to do with him not being able to do the dirty work.

If Fabregas was able to actually do his defensive work then he would be playing instead of Matic. 

 

I agree with the last bit. I think Conte has done an amazing job getting everyone up to their very best. Personally i'd say of all our starters Hazard is probably the only one who still has a higher gear to shift to (2014-2015 form) the rest are all playing at their very best.

But that's kinda the thing though. The way we've played so far is imo close to the best we'll ever see from this group of players so in order to improve even more we're going to need to buy quality players.

We can't settle we have to keep improving as our aim as a club is to go further then just the PL. 

Imo we can improve in four positions. LCB (Cahill), LWB (Alonso), LDM (Matic) and RAM (Willian & Pedro). I know that it's harsh on Alonso and especially Matic as they've done extremely well but that's just how i see it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It's not really harsh on Alonso tbh, he will do for now but I hope we can find an upgrade soon, he isn't a very good defender and in a flat back four he would get exposed probably more than Ivanovic did.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

  On 04/11/2016 at 01:05, MrExcalibur100 said:

"While there are other factors that play a role in our low possession i think the biggest one is the lack of real quality passers in our back 3 and 2 man midfield"

(a) You attributed our "low possession" to a lack of real quality passers and as I showed you, Matic and Kante are hardly ever misplacing passes. I'm not sure what having a great passing range has to do with our low possession in a sample size of 3-4 games. We were 4th in the league in possession stats a few months ago. This has more to do with the manager's tactics and not with Kante and Matic's lack of passing range. I also don't see the relevance in pointing out that most of their passes are straightforward (and I see what you're saying but I don't agree they are). Wouldn't that lend credence to the fact that they are in fact not responsible for our "low possession" to begin with? Anyway, I think your whole premise is faulty as it's obvious Kante and Matic aren't responsible for our low possession the last few games.

 "But teams are going to start figuring out ways to deal with us and then we are going to need the players behind the ball to be able to make those quality passes"

(b) Okay. This is the point I have the biggest problem with. Why not we just wait and see if that happens first? I'm not currently understanding this desire to prognosticate the worst possible outcome for us. We're playing well and the team is balanced, which is something that has been an issue for years now with the Azplicueta playing out position madness. It's also not true to assume that the only way to counter-act whatever way you think teams will "deal with us" is by having "quality passers". Wenger has had quality passers in his teams for years and still hasn't won the league in a decade. Pace has always been a stronger factor in championship PL teams than quality passers.

"I did say "a great passer that could still do the dirty work". The reason Fabregas isn't playing has nothing to do with him being a DLP and everything to do with him not being able to do the dirty work"

(c) I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Hazard can't do the "dirty work" but plays every game. Pirlo had similar strengths and weaknesses to Fabregas but was the key cog in Conte's championship winning Juventus teams. You could argue the pace of Serie A is much slower, but Conte didn't even trust him with Kante and Matic at his disposal! The brutal truth is Fabregas is just not that good. For all his passing range,  he's also completely unathletic and laughably slow. 

I agree that we can improve. But I just don't think now is the time to be looking across the road for the next shiny toy we can buy. We have no guarantees of being in the Champions League next season or Hazard staying. And if you really want to bring up names why not try the transfer forum threads? This thread should be about Conte not about who we want to sign next season (In November no less). 

 

 

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a) I never said they misplaced passes. We do at times struggle to find solutions (circumvent the oppositions pressure) and end up getting forced to pass back to courtois and have him kick it long or have one of our 3 cb's kick it long.

That's where imo the lack of quality passers comes in. 

It's not just about passing range but just general quality on the ball. You stick a player like Modric or Verratti (not saying we're getting these players just using them as examples) and we're going to become more comfortable on the ball. Why because they're simply better.

They see things Matic wouldn't see, they're capable of making passes Matic wouldn't be able to make. 

 

 "Why not we just wait and see if that happens first?"  

We need to be proactive. We need to keep improving. 

c) Oranges and apples, you can't compare the 2, different positions.

The pace of the italian league is indeed slower  then the PL. The 3-5-2 would probably struggle in the PL. The beauty of our 3-4-3 is that when we defend it's a 5-4-1.

While hazard and Pedro aren't tasked with tracking back they do have an important role to play as they tuck into the midfield and force teams to play the ball wide giving the rest of the team valuable second to get into position.

Our 3-4-3 is a lot more solid then a 3-5-2 would be.

 

Why not ? What's the harm in thinking ahead ? I'm not saying we should immediately make these improvements but if we get into the champions league next season then i do believe we should make these improvements. 

Now maybe i'll change my mind over the course of this season. Who knows what's gonna happen but i don't see the harm in expressing my opinion on how to move forward.

 

[ZOS 580]

  On 03/11/2016 at 12:07, Cosmin said:

Why? Our results improved as soon as our possesion dropped. The low possesion is not a bad thing, if you do it the way we are doing it now.

There was a time, during the previous seasons, when we didn't retain possesion and our playing style was ugly and boring. Can you say that Chelsea play ugly football now? No way. We look very strong and there are moments when we speed it up beautifully. The percentage is not as relevant as the quality of the time when you have the ball. The way we play now, sometimes you don't even notice that the opponent has it for a longer time than us. Because they don't do with it anything that comes even close to what we do with the ball during the shorter time that we have it. Look at the games against Man United and Soton. They had more possesion, but the great opportunities and actions were created by us.

My only wish is that we keep playing with the same discipline and wish for victory and, most importantly, we keep not using dirty tactics! Look at Costa, for Christ's sake! He looks like a lamb, so peaceful and quiet! 

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I see what you mean, but there will be times when we'll have to have the ball more than the opponent. Its all good when we score early like in the last two games. What if we couldn't do that or, even worse, what if we concede early? I believe we need to improve on our passing game and ball retention (thinking Diego and Pedro). I'm sure Conte wants better pressing to force mistake but we've never played that game. I guess it takes some getting used to.

[Cosmin 2,484]

@ZOS - fair points, there are things that can be improven. And I am sure that against weaker opponents, we will retain possesion more. But against Manchester United (after putting one in so early in the game) and Southampton (that's a very difficult ground to have a good possesion, let alone actually winning) it's been kind of logical to give away the ball. I think what Conte has and our previous manager hasn't is the capacity to adapt. I really can't see us defending against Burnley or Bournemouth. We will go at them, at least while playing home. I'm sure we'll get better on this aspect too. 

[xPetrCechx 13,565]

Vote for your Barclays Manager of the Month

https://www.premierleague.com/news/133118

[Unionjack 7,531]

I wonder why Gus dropped by?

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2016/11/hiddink-calls-in-to-cobham.html

[xPetrCechx 13,565]

Press conference = the only place you'll see conte seating

[xPetrCechx 13,565]

  On 04/11/2016 at 13:17, Unionjack said:

I wonder why Gus dropped by?

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?

[Unionjack 7,531]

  On 04/11/2016 at 11:31, xPetrCechx said:

Vote for your Barclays Manager of the Month

https://www.premierleague.com/news/133118

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Even if I was unbiased I dont see a choice. The turnaround has to be impressive to our biggest opponents.

Its obviously Moiu!!!!

[Unionjack 7,531]

  On 04/11/2016 at 13:20, xPetrCechx said:

?

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The link Petr.

[Special Juan 27,622]

Fabregas and Zouma trained this week with the team. Bot available for selection after the international break.

Zouma will play against Oxford at SB in the check a trade trophy game.

Terry in a good way after training for 2 weeks

[xPetrCechx 13,565]

  On 04/11/2016 at 13:21, Unionjack said:

The link Petr.

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I saw it... but who dropped Guus?

[Unionjack 7,531]

  On 04/11/2016 at 13:29, xPetrCechx said:

I saw it... but who dropped Guus?

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hahaa No he dropped by the Bridge ya nutter