The Mourinho Thread

[Rom2013 446]

I don't follow your argument. I simply read this sentence like 100 times, i don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talent players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

The League normally is won by the best team (or one of the best teams if they are similar) the CHampions League it's not as simple as that, for example in the past 11 seasons we have 4 underdogs winning the competition:

Porto 2004

Liverpool 2005

Inter 2010

Chelsea 2012

And that happens because it's a cup like the FA Cup or any other cup. For example Portsmouth and Wigan also won the FA Cup but they wouldn't do it in the League in a million attempts.

The Champions League is more important than the League, it's more unpredictable, there are always 8 great teams fighting for it, it's a cup and it's not the best way to measure the value of a team. Rea Madrid was horrible in some of their Champions League wins being 6th like Chelsea was in 2012.

About the money spent we have 2 problems. The first one was that Chelsea had a structural deficit of something like 50M£ (I don't know if this is the number but it's something like this, for example in 2013 we had a deficit between 35M£ and 50M£) and we had to sell, we had no other option.

You can say if this player is a Mourinho player, or the other one is not... or what you want... even if Mourinho was in love with his 25 players in 2013 we would need to sell 4, 5 or 6 really good players to pass the new FFP rules.

The other problem is that it's not the same to sell 200M£ in players and buy another 200M£, or just buy 200M£... I think that's obvious.

If United sells Di Maria for 50M£ and buy Bale for 60M£ maybe they will improve their team, if they have Di Maria and Bale they will have an incredible team.

In the last 2 seasons United spent 237M£ in players and sold 45M£ for a net spending of 192M£.

In the last 2 seasons City spent 190M£ in players and sold 30M£ in players for a net spending of 160M£.

In the last 2 seasons Arsenal spent 150M£ in players and sold 30M£ in players for a net spending of 120M£

In the last 2 seasons Chelsea spent 235M£ in players and sold 200M£ in players for a net spending of 35M£.

The numbers are clear. And if United continue spending like this there is no way we can compete with them in the future. We were clearly the team that spent less money and the team with the best evolution in the past 2 seasons.

And yes the team was horrible in every aspect when Mourinho started his job.

[Muzchap 8,966]

I don't follow your argument. I simply just read this sentence like 100 times, i still don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talented players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

Hmm you say best teams in Europe and then the World? CL only covers Europe

But aside from that - fair points. But Spurs have spent big and are still shit. Spending <> Success - although it certainly helps

[Spike 12,049]

The fact that we assembled a great team on a modest budget, whilst complying with FFP is to be applauded, however it's clear to see our small stadium is REALLY punishing us compared to the teams around us in the EPL and massively restricting us in Europe. Therefore, until that is addressed it's unlikely we will be able to spend at the rate of UTD.

Great post, Muzchap but there are two words I disagree with. I have bolded them for emphasis. Perhaps relative to the spending of previous years and other rich teams, Chelsea has been modest. But in the grand scheme of the world Chelsea has spent more than £30,0000 each on Hazard, Fabregas, Costa, and Willian alone and to be honest there isn't much modest about that sort of money.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Great post, Muzchap but there are two words I disagree with. I have bolded them for emphasis. Perhaps relative to the spending of previous years and other rich teams, Chelsea has been modest. But in the grand scheme of the world Chelsea has spent more than £30,0000 each on Hazard, Fabregas, Costa, and Willian alone and to be honest there isn't much modest about that sort of money.

Good point - my baseline for 'modest' is now slightly higher due to the ridiculous overpriced transfers every window.

Soon the £50 million for TORRES will look normal.

It's a shame as FFP hasn't really worked and prices have still increased year on year. I think a cap on xfer fee is the only likely scenario in the future... Legally it could only work in Europe I guess (single commom market) and xfer from International countries would have to remain uncapped - but they could legislate around the Work Permit element. It's a tough one...

[Styles 9,790]

Very good discussions going on here.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

Good point - my baseline for 'modest' is now slightly higher due to the ridiculous overpriced transfers every window.

Soon the £50 million for TORRES will look normal.

It's a shame as FFP hasn't really worked and prices have still increased year on year. I think a cap on xfer fee is the only likely scenario in the future... Legally it could only work in Europe I guess (single commom market) and xfer from International countries would have to remain uncapped - but they could legislate around the Work Permit element. It's a tough one...

or biasing TV money towards lower placed clubs to keep them in the game.

[Muzchap 8,966]

or biasing TV money towards lower placed clubs to keep them in the game.

In theory that could work - but you could get a situation where a team 'sandbags' their performance to finish 17th (not relegated) to obtain the most money - rather than finishing 15th. In essence - it rewards not being competitive.

I guess as always in life there is no magic bullet - but a hybrid of CAP and equalisation of monies ( so 17-1) all get the same could be a fairer measure of true performance. However - all EUROPEAN leagues would need to sign up to this.

It certainly would make the leagues interesting and the extra share of money would ensure clubs could reduce ticket prices and still generate enough for them to be profitable - whilst placing football back in the reach of the working man.

I would certainly vote for such a system.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

In theory that could work - but you could get a situation where a team 'sandbags' their performance to finish 17th (not relegated) to obtain the most money - rather than finishing 15th. In essence - it rewards not being competitive.

I guess as always in life there is no magic bullet - but a hybrid of CAP and equalisation of monies ( so 17-1) all get the same could be a fairer measure of true performance. However - all EUROPEAN leagues would need to sign up to this.

It certainly would make the leagues interesting and the extra share of money would ensure clubs could reduce ticket prices and still generate enough for them to be profitable - whilst placing football back in the reach of the working man.

I would certainly vote for such a system.

The difference wouldn't be huge, we're talking +10 or so million on what the first placed club gets, and that'd get offset by lost shirt sales, neutral support, and no European competition if a top side really did decide to go that far about cheating the system.

Most of the top 8 sides in football are owned by billionaires these days of which £10m is like losing a £10 note anyway, so I think it would balance the system. The only clubs I can see doing that are clubs like Newcastle, because they're short termist. It'd actually present itself opportunities for lower clubs like Crystal Palace who want to do better to do better in the league to get a higher league placing and therefore increase player interest in joining them.

[The Mak 4,459]

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

Not to mention the £70m+ José has spent on the one position, the RW, which is currently still not fixed... Also, with both KDB and Salah currently playing out of their socks (and Cuadrado currently resembling more of a stocking of shit by comparison), it is increasingly looking like José has made an absolute dogs dinner of this position in particular.

[didierforever 7,349]

Not to mention the £70m+ José has spent on the one position, the RW, which is currently still not fixed... Also, with both KDB and Salah currently playing out of their socks (and Cuadrado currently resembling more of a stocking of shit by comparison), it is increasingly looking like José has made an absolute dogs dinner of this position in particular.

see this is something which i dont get.

you cant use 70mil along with citing kdb,salah etc too. if u want to cite kdb, salah etc then the better way of putting it is jose spent (32+27+11=70 mil minus mata=37, kdb=17, so net of 16mil, infact make it 12mil since schurrle was bought for 18 and sold for 22) and still has not solved the problem.

so jose has a net spend of 12 mil for one position for whom he simply has not been able to find a match winner

[Fernando 6,376]

see this is something which i dont get.

you cant use 70mil along with citing kdb,salah etc too. if u want to cite kdb, salah etc then the better way of putting it is jose spent (32+27+11=70 mil minus mata=37, kdb=17, so net of 16mil, infact make it 12mil since schurrle was bought for 18 and sold for 22) and still has not solved the problem.

so jose has a net spend of 12 mil for one position for whom he simply has not been able to find a match winner

I think Real Madrid has done the same for the last two season. That even though they spend a lot it's less because net spend ain't as much since they sold players as well.

But people don't attribute it to Carlo but Florentino and his board....

[Muzchap 8,966]

see this is something which i dont get.

you cant use 70mil along with citing kdb,salah etc too. if u want to cite kdb, salah etc then the better way of putting it is jose spent (32+27+11=70 mil minus mata=37, kdb=17, so net of 16mil, infact make it 12mil since schurrle was bought for 18 and sold for 22) and still has not solved the problem.

so jose has a net spend of 12 mil for one position for whom he simply has not been able to find a match winner

Exactly !

And a smart man might say the reason RW is so problematic is because of a certain RB - where the RW needs to dedicate a lot of time to defensive duties. It took Hazard an exceptional talent a few years to adjust - so dropping in a quick fix won't work.

For me we either replace the current RB and play to the RW strengths - or wait patiently

I'm all for trying Azpi as RB and letting the RW play

That would give us so much more balance and threat - with the added bonus of destabilising the opposition defence - creating more room for everybody. At the minute it's double up on Hazard and mark Costa... With a true RW - the opposition defence would have all kinds of trouble

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

Not to mention the £70m+ José has spent on the one position, the RW, which is currently still not fixed... Also, with both KDB and Salah currently playing out of their socks (and Cuadrado currently resembling more of a stocking of shit by comparison), it is increasingly looking like José has made an absolute dogs dinner of this position in particular.

The thing is does Mourinho actually feel like the RW position needs fixing ? Based on his actions i'd say no.

We've seen Willian (and sometimes even Ramires) been giving the starting spot, on that RW, over more attacking players like Schurrle and Salah.

Also when we replaced Schurrle in the squad we didn't go for a goalscoring RW instead we went for a carbon copy of Willian. (different styles ofcourse but still similar)

A defensive minded RW with pace and high workrate.

The way i see it Mourinho seems happy with how our right side is set up and is going to continue playing that way next season.

[MrBlueGuy 1,552]

I think Real Madrid has done the same for the last two season. That even though they spend a lot it's less because net spend ain't as much since they sold players as well.

But people don't attribute it to Carlo but Florentino and his board....

Because Carlo or almost any Real manager that is not Jose don't get any say about signing. In theory they are not even 'manager' but merely 1st team coach, didn't he state numerous time last season he wanted to keep Di Maria and won't need anyone...etc.

[Tomo 21,684]

I don't follow your argument. I simply just read this sentence like 100 times, i still don't quite get how you rationalize PL>CL.

The league is like a marathon, the CL is more like a sprint. Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world, but he would get destroyed by many pro marathon runners. Does that make marathon runners better then Bolt? Absloutely not.

CL is without a doubt the best competition, because it incorportes the best teams in europe. By default this makes it the best judgement for a team, because you won against the best in the world.

The best team usually does win the CL competition, because it is hard to say othewise. Just because the best team on paper didn't win it, doesn't mean the best team didn't win

That figure acutally contradicte your argument. You cannot argue that team had no talent and were weak, but that figure actually support that Mou inheritied a strong team. Mou spent a lot of money and he also sold a lot of talented players. By using that net spend, you are disguising the money Mou has spent.

I absloutely cannot believe this, Mou hasen't been given enough money to spend? That is bullcrap, i did a quick calculation we have spent almost 250m Euros since Mou took over. Almost every club is envious of how much money we have spent and also how good we have dealt our players in the transfer market. Mou spent 30m on Cuadrado, and he has been sparingly used. How many managers have the luxery of spending that much money on a squad player?

Sorry but I just don't get how that's contradictory, good but not world class players or even average can get sold for high prices (look at Southampton), our squad was basically a bunch players that fell into that category, who in that squad was serious top class material at that time? Cech that's about it, JT had a poor season and Hazard wasn't quite their at the time.

Jose obviously didn't negotiate the high prices, but he does deserve credit for turning us into title material on effectively a sell to buy model, Wenger got praised for keeping Arsenal in the top 4 doing that likewise Rafa Liverpool, Jose goes as step further and turns a top 4 challenging squad at best into title material with little net spend and barely even gets credit by his own supporters.

Also while we are on the subject of Arsenal, in 2013 us and Arse both scraped top 4 late on in the season, since then Jose has turned us into title with a £36m net spend while Arsensl have spent over £100m net and are no better than they were 2 years ago, poor Wenger hey, he can't compete because he has no money

What im about to say isn't aimed at you but I am just baffled why some people just won't say even the slightest bit of praise for the most successful manager in the history of this club, and worse some go out of their way to criticise him, it's just baffles me the lack of respect for a man that done so much for us and gave and is still giving us so many great times, let's say for argument sake Shankley was still alive and went back to manage Liverpool, could you imagine one single Liverpool fan saying anything close to the shit vybz kartel (previously Tinshe) amongst others say about Mourinho? He told him to go fuck himself before we were about to play a CUP FINAL, that for me is unacceptable.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Sorry but I just don't get how that's contradictory, good but not world class players or even average can get sold for high prices (look at Southampton), our squad was basically a bunch players that fell into that category, who in that squad was serious top class material at that time? Cech that's about it, JT had a poor season and Hazard wasn't quite their at the time.

Jose obviously didn't negotiate the high prices, but he does deserve credit for turning us into title material on effectively a sell to buy model, Wenger got praised for keeping Arsenal in the top 4 doing that likewise Rafa Liverpool, Jose goes as step further and turns a top 4 challenging squad at best into title material with little net spend and barely even gets credit by his own supporters.

Also while we are on the subject of Arsenal, in 2013 us and Arse both scraped top 4 late on in the season, since then Jose has turned us into title with a £36m net spend while Arsensl have spent over £100m net and are no better than they were 2 years ago, poor Wenger hey, he can't compete because he has no money

What im about to say isn't aimed at you but I am just baffled why some people just won't say even the slightest bit of praise for the most successful manager in the history of this club, and worse some go out of their way to criticise him, it's just baffles me the lack of respect for a man that done so much for us and gave and is still giving us so many great times, let's say for argument sake Shankley was still alive and went back to manage Liverpool, could you imagine one single Liverpool fan saying anything close to the shit vybz kartel (previously Tinshe) amongst others say about Mourinho? He told him to go fuck himself before we were about to play a CUP FINAL, that for me is unacceptable.

The real one that pains me is a Chelsea fan telling another that he's supporting Mourinho too much.

Someone said that to supporter the other day (saying he's a troll) and to someone else in the KDB thread. Like if an arsenal fan tells a Chelsea fan he is oversupporting Mourinho I'll understand the hatred, but not a Chelsea fan

[The Mak 4,459]

see this is something which i dont get.

you cant use 70mil along with citing kdb,salah etc too. if u want to cite kdb, salah etc then the better way of putting it is jose spent (32+27+11=70 mil minus mata=37, kdb=17, so net of 16mil, infact make it 12mil since schurrle was bought for 18 and sold for 22) and still has not solved the problem.

so jose has a net spend of 12 mil for one position for whom he simply has not been able to find a match winner

Eh, yes I can. It's still money being spent on one position. And if you want to bring net into it, it means absolutely nothing. He has spent money on the one position when efforts/money could have been focused elsewhere - like a CB. He used the Schurrle (a LW) money to buy a RW, leaving no natural cover for Hazard if he gets injured - I highlighted this before, this was a fucking massive risk. It could've potentially thrown away the title if it went tits up.

So, if anything, by bringing net into it through including the likes of Schurrle (who was for a different position), it accentuates how wrong José has got fixing the RW - he spent all that money and even weakened other areas of the pitch to get yet another player for the RW. This is without mentioning the fact he would rather recall Moses than spend 26m on Cuadrado...this note in particular leaves me with the gut feeling that Cuadrado will be a humungous, regrettable, expensive flop. But that's just my feeling, not that I want it to happen.

And I am citing KDB and Salah because they are clearly good players. Alright, Salah might need a particular system, but it is undeniable how good KDB can be - certainly better than any of our AMs, besides Hazard. If José wasn't so dogmatic about certain players, we could've had two world-class AMs, saving a ton of transfer hassle and prolonging our final product. These sales were not specifically like for like RW replacements anyway, as I will explain...

The thing is does Mourinho actually feel like the RW position needs fixing ? Based on his actions i'd say no.

We've seen Willian (and sometimes even Ramires) been giving the starting spot, on that RW, over more attacking players like Schurrle and Salah.

Also when we replaced Schurrle in the squad we didn't go for a goalscoring RW instead we went for a carbon copy of Willian. (different styles ofcourse but still similar)

A defensive minded RW with pace and high workrate.

The way i see it Mourinho seems happy with how our right side is set up and is going to continue playing that way next season.

If he is happy with the RW, then why has he spent so much on the one position in less than two years?! Why did he prefer to bring back Moses instead of go for Cuadrado? Simple questions and they have a simple answer - he has not got it right. Willian is more of a CAM, but because he has high acceleration and work rate he is farmed out on the wing, even though he slows down play and can't cross. José has decided that Moses, KDB (a CAM), Schurrle (a LW) and Salah are not right. Now Cuadrado is here and I already had my reservations about him, but if he wasn't José 1st choice then my confidence in him has absolutely plummeted.

Listen lads, I am not attacking José. I want him to stay and I want him to get it right. Saying that, he should not be exempt from criticism. In the same way that he got it absolutely spot on with Matic, Fabregas and Costa, he has made a fucking mess of the RW in my eyes.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,776]

The real one that pains me is a Chelsea fan telling another that he's supporting Mourinho too much.

Someone said that to supporter the other day (saying he's a troll) and to someone else in the KDB thread. Like if an arsenal fan tells a Chelsea fan he is oversupporting Mourinho I'll understand the hatred, but not a Chelsea fan

Tommy Docherty was in charge when I became a fan of this club and I've seen many men move through that office since. If the most I can do for Jose is to describe him as the best of the bunch, the number 1, then, in an effort to keep things in their proper proportion, I'd have to describe the next best (Hiddink) as number 5. Rubbish maths, but everybody gets what I mean.

We have a small squad containing many players with admirable qualities but too few of absolute quality.

We are top of the league.

Jose Mourinho.

We were better last season than we had been the one before that.

We are better again this season than we were during the previous one.

Jose Mourinho.

We will be better next season than we are this.

Jose Mourinho.