The Mourinho Thread

[termninja 5,290]

Hi Nice to see you again

Well ill try to write a not so long analysis.

In Madrid theres a structure where behavior and values are looked at with a microscope in a special way, in madrid this is called "senorio", where madrid is looked or was looked at as classy to put it simply. Kind of how Barcelona stands for values as they say with "mes que un club". ( This was problem A for Mou before he went to madrid).

In Madrid there is a belief that you have to "die" attacking, people dont want to see madrid defending on their back foot in their own home. There is a certain spanish style in madrid's history (epitomized recently in the late 80's with la quinta del buitre which won la liga for almost an entire decade). ( Problem B for Mou before he went to madrid.)

So these two problems were going to make it hard for mourinho to live a peaceful life here because as everyone knew, he had an attitude which would clash with "senorio", like joining barcelona with the values they have...So he had the problem with attitude and he had the problem with the way hed make the team play, so controversy and pain was almost guaranteed before he arrived.

Well when madrid got him, pellegrini was sacked so he could come. People knew that bringing mou had its drawbacks, specially for us as not only the attitude and style was in doubt, but also his ability to build a long term plan. Well the whole thing when we brought him was that THE END HAD TO JUSTIFY THE MEANS. Mourinho is more RESULTIST than a coach like guardiola in that a coach like guardiola or cryuff hellped build legacies, canteras, styles of football, and football with substance that could be evolutionized and revolutionized into being something special. Mou brings nothing of this because as his track record showed, his football was not long term in that sense and if anything he had shown that his way of being was ANTI long term. So based on this maybe a coach like guardiola who is classy and has this long term thing to him could be saved from being "hanged" but when a coach that is so arrogant and controversial and plays such a negative football and is like SATAN to what madrid stands for comes to madrid and fails to justify the means with his arrival, the only thing i can do as the majority can is deem his time here as a FAILURE.

Forget about all other competitions other than la liga and champions league.

HE FAILED TO WIN 5/6 OF THOSE TOURNAMENTS.

He got beat by barcelona twice in the league, and despite things that you can point at like the red card on pepe in 10/11 in the CL SEMI FINAL, the scheme he brought to madrid was so poor that we got lambasted 3 years in a row by dortmund, munich, and barcelona. Bare in mind that in each and every of the campaigns the only time we had real formidable foes in our way to the semi finals was this year when we faced manchester united and we only won because the referee made a mistake with NANI.

So bottom line mourinho failed in Madrid because his football philosophy is non existant, he left us with nothing, no type of good football that can be expanded and that a legacy or football project can be created with like the ones with bayern munich, dortmund, or barcelona, which are coincidentally the teams that took us down. His football was so horrible that we lost two la ligas because teams figured us out,we were either ill prepared tactically or mentally and emotionally because in 12/13 there was civil war in madrid leading to a huge dip in form in the first half of season. So mourinho left no type of football philosophy, and he failed to win 5/6 real trophies. Thats an 83 percent failure he had in madrid.

So he left us with a horrible brand of football if it can even be called a brand, and with 1 trophy out of 6. So in that side of the coin its a total FAILURE.

On THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN. You could say he brought madrid back into relevance into the CL SEMI FINALS, this is probably the only justification his most dire supporters can use, but the reality is that since VICENTE DEL BOSQUE IN 2003 AND NOT EVEN THEN! No one has been given more power or money to spend than jose mourinho. And what did jose do with that power? He made a circus out of madrid making us look like bastards with guys like Xavi defending the senorio of real madrid, our OWN CLUB by saying that mourinho was a cancer. So this is nto a justification. Its like saying " hey madrid finally gave someone a chance and when they gave the guy a chance you know what he did? he made us look like clowns, made horrible purchases, and failed to win the trophies more than 80 percent of the time!"

Aside from that theres nothing more to say, mou was a failure in each and every way. He gave us a 3 year run of consistency, its a step forward but its due to his overated status and not to what he did here, thats why guys like PEREZ are idiots and these last 4 years of his i will wish to see race past me as i dont want perez in madrid.

Mourinho failed.

He failed with the trophies.

He failed with the football.

Thats why everyone was saying "madrid is it really worth the cost?" well the answer was, "lets wait till its over to decide", and now we can answer with a big NO. He made us into clowns and losers, LITERALLY. The return of relevance was due to the club waking up a little bit and realizing that no matter who the coach if you treat him like sh*T and dont give him time nothing good will happen. Mou did nothing special with out team considering he built it wrong around a bad football brand, spent alot of money, i mean someone like pellegrini if he had stayed would have been classy, would have brought better football, and if given time would have probably led to trophies, as mourinho showed, he is not the best manager or coach in the world in any way, he just has a short term winning formula ( that is not guaranteed btw) that packs in a high dose of controversy and bullshi*T.

Now about his transfers..They were horrible...

He brought Nuri Sahin and probably never even watched him play considering he didnt know what to do with him and ostracized him completely, by making alonso play almost every game of the season. Nuri Sahin was a failure.

Di Maria is a clown, he is predictable, a prolific diver, overated, and cant pass for sh*t, only thing he has is good work rate.

Coentrao was a 30 million failure, not needed here, mou tried him in midfield and failed, and he failed at displacing marcelo too.

Altintop? HAHAAHAHAHa

Modric maybe his biggest failure. So expensive, could have brought someone like gundogan or given sahin more of a chance but he spent so much on modric just so that he didnt know what to do, what a piece of sh*T mourinho prove to be with transfers. None of his transfers had impact, they were all overpriced flops.

Coentrao is madrid biggest mistake but he will be sold for around 18 i heard, and modric will be given a chance since mou just played him as utility player anywhere not knowing what to do with him.

Mourinho is a bit of a fraud, he is sh*T tactically, he got beat soundly in all the 3 CL semi finals tactically.

Go to google and type in Zonal mARKING along with the match ud want to check like the bayern vs madrid match in 11/12, very profound explanations of the rape mourinho took. He built such a shit team that he had to take a midfielder out and the rb out more than once in la liga games this year to put in callejon and kaka in an attempt to throw all attacking players out there and hope for a goal. SEVILLA GAME WAS THE LOWEST POINT.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/04/25/dortmund-4-1-real-madrid-dortmund-enforce-high-tempo-spells-at-the-start-of-both-halves/

A piece of sh*t tactically and financially, and he failed in all fronts.

Forgive me if i am harsh but this is the reality. He made us waste money on people we didnt need and he didnt know how to use, he left us with no positives in the football area, failed to win the trophies, did not do a "special job", did not justify the means, behaved like a classless prick, and hurt our image. A CL would have justified the means as crazy as it sounds, but with the controversy with the players and everything...a facking disgrace.

Oh and dont get me started on the players..80 percent of the dressing room was against him. So were the fans because he was an asshole who didnt keep his promises to guys like benzema. Only arbeloa, modric, essien, lopez, callejon, licked his ass in the end. Even pepe told him to fck off after what he did to iker.

FAILURE.

Who do i want in madrid? Someone who could bring progressive football, with advanced technical football like the ones we see from the germans so that we can build a long term project like a modern club should, maybe someone like laudrup or heynckes. Trophy cabinets like mourinho's mean jack shit if you dont take all areas into account.

But perez is an idiot, i was illusioned with the arrival of zidane as our GM that we would do what i wish but we are sliding towards ancelotti which is like mourinho but less bound to successful, plays sht football, very defensive minded, all is going wrong. I dont know why zidane didnt advice perez on this.

Apparently madrid will get ancelotti and bale and that sickens me, we will play shit football that has led to our demise in europe ( i could go further into detail into mourinhos failings but i wont atm) with managers like him or mou we wont get to see ozil shine in the correct place in the pitch, we will fail against park the bus teams and lose la ligas, all while playing shit football.

And the overpriced one trick pony bale...He is overpriced and would get unmasked if put into a passing side. Weve never seen profficient passing skills, or football inteligence, or through balls, or ability to beat players without speed, from bale. All he is, is a countering machine with a hell of a shot, but in madrid we should strive for more than that, and its because of our reluctance that we lose our chances at real geniuses like gotze, reus, and now apparently isco. Which are much better with the ball, can do much more with it, and are much cheaper.

I think that answers your question

What do i expect from mourinho in chelsea? These are different circumstances, maybe hes happy here and vice versa, i dont know but to leave it shortly, dont expect great deals in transfers if mou is given big authority, all i can say is he will do atleast ok we will see. but the best case scenario is that he is given time, and he wins by keeping player morale high and keeping a good grip of the areas in football by winning. Worst case scenario is that there is YET ANOTHER COMBUSTION and everything goes to hell; the relationships the football, EVERYTHING. DO NOT expect to see revolutionizing football like Bayern's or barca's Or Dortmund, or simply put technical, like Athletic Bilbao's last season.

If anything i would like to inform many here to reconsider your view of mourinho if your are capable enough to realize that your view of him is overrated and miscalculated, IF THAT IS INDEED THE CASE ATLEAST. I feel i explained the reasoning behind this well.

Was given total control of the madrid ship and sent it crashing into flames.

Nicely written post even though I don't agree with 90% of it Thanks for writing such a long response

Anyway, one thing I would like to state first and that is that we can't know for sure what is happening in the dressing rooms and on training sessions. Honestly, I get shitload of impressions that there are massive egos at the club and at the club like Real Madrid when pressure is on you even when you are taking a shit, that's can be quite a problem so I believe Jose had his hands really really full for the last 3 years he spent at RM.

What really bothers me when people talk about Jose is that he is short term. Well for one, you can still see remnants of his Chelsea squad here who still praise him like he is some sort of god and we all know the managers who have been at the Stamford Bridge after Mou - Grant, Scolari, Hiddink, Ancelotti, Villas-Boas, RDM and Benitez, yet our players still wank on Mou. And what I can tell you is that managing players like Terry, Lampard, Drogba, Crespo, Essien, Shevchenko, Cole, Cech etc was not an easy job. If I'm really sure of something, then that is Mourinho's man management skills. Can't think of a better coach then him when it comes to that. Again I must repeat, we can't really see what is happening behind the courtains so I must base this on what players have spoken of him, my impression and my overall knowledge of everything

Short term? Well he is young for one, or let's say, was young. I firmly believe that if you want to really build something long term you need to start winning like crazy first, like we did under Ancelotti in 2009/2010 and then start implementing youngsters and other things like Carlo tried to do but got his sorry ass sacked even though 90% of the fans were against it. It's a bit ungrateful to expect from Jose to start implementing youngsters and thinking long term when there is even more pressure at Madrid to win trophies then it is actually here.

You criticize his transfers? Somehow you forgot to mention just awful money throwing Madrid did with transfers of:

Robben £30m

Sneijder £23m

Van der Vaart £12m

Kaka £55m

Benzema £30m £who hasn't produced the level it was expected of him and Pepe £25m who until everything started falling apart hasn't produced the best of his game until Mourinho came.

Beg my pardon but I'm fairly certain Ozil, Di Maria and Khedira did a better job then Robben, Sneijder, Van der Vaart and Kaka did and how much were those 3 payed all together? A mere 43 million £, 12 less RM spent on Kaka only.

Fabio Coentrao? A bit overpayed, but hey, welcome to the world of Benfica and Porto. Want their player, you better pay well. Coentrao was the most promising full back in the world back at the time when Madrid was about to bring him in. His inability to satisfy your expectation is not down to Mourinho but to him.

Yes, you can argue Mou didn't bring the best out of some players, but as I said at the beginning of this response, we can't see what is happening really so we will get nowhere with discussion around that. For me, Mourinho did a good job with Coentrao but it was Fabio himself who didn't give his best.

Football Mourinho brought? Aye, I remember when you were trashed 5-0. Why was that? Oh let's see, because he didn't want to sit back and defend for his 1st El Classico? As it happened, whole of the world got on his back and just that alone is enough to make your bloody hair gray right away For me, it's completely normal not to open up for the next few of games because the players will take some time to forget that huge loss. There were some great games against Barca with Jose at the helm and you can bet your ass that whole of Barcelona was afraid when they had to face Madrid because they knew it was going to be really really really difficult. Just like Manchester and Liverpool fans were shitting their pants when he was here back in the day, when they had to play us, they knew it's something absolutely massive that is going to drain really a lot from them.

Jose's 2nd season? He absolutely kicked ass when it comes to football you desire so much. I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again, football Madrid produced in that season was some of the best I have ever bloody seen! I shit on Barca's tiki taka, it was 6x times uglier then what Madrid did in that season.

and the 3rd season...I don't know what to say really...I can just throw around pure assumptions and theories on what went wrong but it seems to me I will get nowhere with it because I can't know anything for sure.

What I do must say against Jose is the way he dealt with Cassillas' situation. For me, it's completely idiotic to put your captain on the bench, a walking legend and the most respected player at the club, no matter what he says and does to you. Why? Because it will shake whole of the team and bring unrest and that is the worst thing that can happen. Now as I said, I can't know for sure what happened. Perhaps Cassillas' was undermining Jose work? Seems impossible, but nothing is impossible.

So all in all, I'm really happy he is coming back and you guys at Madrid should follow his progress in the following seasons to see was it really his fault everything went to hell or was it perhaps something else

Oh and good luck with Ancelotti and the kind of football you expect Don't be surprised if he brings Pirlo

[Martina 210]

http://www.marca.com/2013/05/31/en/football/international_football/1370026067.html

It's a funny world. Remember when AVB "lost the dressing room"? And it was Terry, Lampard, Cole etc… who got the blame.

[Martina 210]

Stability???

Arsenal got stability and look at how they are doing?

It's trophies above that.

And does not matter if he is love.

Just like rdm if he is doing bad he will get the boot!

Fair enough - it's all about trophies for you. Even though it means treating the managers and fans like dirt.

The stability issue comes up very often here in connection with Jose and things like the academy, young players etc… It's not something I invented. But you can't have your cake and eat it.

[Special Juan 27,424]

Barring the thanks goodbye he got Madrid don't deserve him, come home Jose we missed and love you pal.

[ChelseaFanUK 1,014]

Did he not have a presser after the game? Wouldn't have been surprised to see him confirm the move tonight.

[Martina 210]

We don't really change them...we rotate them :-)

[Slam Dunk 1,442]

We don't really change them...we rotate them :-)

That means Rafa will be back...

[Martina 210]

That means Rafa will be back...

That might be a "fact".

But let's just hope the sequence repeats itself.

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

Thanks for the reply.

We cant really know how the dressing rooms are but what i wanted to make as a point when people talk about the CURRENT madrid dressing room is that it is not as bad as you might think. Its not the ego driven asylum some would like to point out. For the most part they did their job and most problems were fabricated by the media, the only real problems mou had was with iker and ramos, they had their differences but they always showed support and class when asked about mourinho infront of the cameras, and they did what they had to. The club never pressured mourinho to play them, it was the media who made a meal out of it, and mou did make a meal of it too by talking the way he talked about them and doing things like putting adan up there lol. I understand that we should consider the squad but my point is that it didnt have as much of a effect in that sense as some might think. It really didnt. Its not like what balotelli did with mourinho for example.It made things harder for mou sure, but overall the performances, purchases, tactics, and mainly on him, and if the players lose morale or support in their coach its certainly mutual.

Also i say that hes a short term coach period because his football is not a long term kind of football as i already described and compared with someone like guardiola, he is very volatile which makes for "divorce" with either players, fans, club, media, etc, and this has all led to his time in many places being short and controversial. He has shown that his style can be short term until it combusts, i judge from what i see and that is it.

If you want to build something long term you need support from the club, players, and you know how to do it and mou hasnt REALLY showed that because of his way of being. He had different relations with the players but just because it seems polarizing compared to madrid it doesnt mean the squad was filled with divas in that way, it wasnt. He left the club with players, yes it wasnt like he was gonna take it with them. He leaves madrid with players but it doesnt mean they were good purchases or that we need them, or that its significant.

Also i think its irrelevant to show madrid failures in transfer here because i dont see how it serves as a damper on mourinho's failures. He made big errors that are rarely seen. He brought coentrao that was not needed at all for a huge price and he failed to do anything good with him, he failed with sahin, altintop, modric, almost everyone.

Not wanting to sit back for his first classico is not accurate at all, he based his team defensively and thats how he was gonna roll,( counter attacking was to be the brand) what failed him is that he didnt prepare madrid enough tactically before the game or on the game it self. It was a failure in different ways, and his football got figured out specially by park the bus teams. He built such a bad midfield with khedira and alonso, and so many errors upfront that in the 1st season we lost very ugly matches and in the third one it got worst. In the second one we did better because it was the second year and we got motivated but he couldnt keep it up and it fell apart. He betrayed many players, as LEQUIPE released a year ago he promised a place as starter to benz in the 12/13 pre season and failed to live up to the promise. Along with other things.

Good luck with jose.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/11/30/barcelona-5-0-real-madrid-tactics/ ( 5-0 analysis) And barca were never really scared of us tbh.

He made massive errors financially, tactically, and with his attitude to player and media. That is undeniable in my opinion.

Now when it comes to the player's role in the demise, believe me it was not war like some might think. Things got ugly only in 3rd season and even then the only guy it got REALLY ugly and personal with was iker but it was a mutual thing.

Mou is leaving because in 3 years as i said in the thread, he constructed a disaster.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

That means Rafa will be back...

And same thing about Avram! Yes!

[Stingray 9,441]

Thanks for the reply.

We cant really know how the dressing rooms are but what i wanted to make as a point when people talk about the CURRENT madrid dressing room is that it is not as bad as you might think. Its not the ego driven asylum some would like to point out. For the most part they did their job and most problems were fabricated by the media, the only real problems mou had was with iker and ramos, they had their differences but they always showed support and class when asked about mourinho infront of the cameras, and they did what they had to. The club never pressured mourinho to play them, it was the media who made a meal out of it, and mou did make a meal of it too by talking the way he talked about them and doing things like putting adan up there lol. I understand that we should consider the squad but my point is that it didnt have as much of a effect in that sense as some might think. It really didnt. Its not like what balotelli did with mourinho for example.It made things harder for mou sure, but overall the performances, purchases, tactics, and mainly on him, and if the players lose morale or support in their coach its certainly mutual.

Also i say that hes a short term coach period because his football is not a long term kind of football as i already described and compared with someone like guardiola, he is very volatile which makes for "divorce" with either players, fans, club, media, etc, and this has all led to his time in many places being short and controversial. He has shown that his style can be short term until it combusts, i judge from what i see and that is it.

If you want to build something long term you need support from the club, players, and you know how to do it and mou hasnt REALLY showed that because of his way of being. He had different relations with the players but just because it seems polarizing compared to madrid it doesnt mean the squad was filled with divas in that way, it wasnt. He left the club with players, yes it wasnt like he was gonna take it with them. He leaves madrid with players but it doesnt mean they were good purchases or that we need them, or that its significant.

Also i think its irrelevant to show madrid failures in transfer here because i dont see how it serves as a damper on mourinho's failures. He made big errors that are rarely seen. He brought coentrao that was not needed at all for a huge price and he failed to do anything good with him, he failed with sahin, altintop, modric, almost everyone.

Not wanting to sit back for his first classico is not accurate at all, he based his team defensively and thats how he was gonna roll,( counter attacking was to be the brand) what failed him is that he didnt prepare madrid enough tactically before the game or on the game it self. It was a failure in different ways, and his football got figured out specially by park the bus teams. He built such a bad midfield with khedira and alonso, and so many errors upfront that in the 1st season we lost very ugly matches and in the third one it got worst. In the second one we did better because it was the second year and we got motivated but he couldnt keep it up and it fell apart. He betrayed many players, as LEQUIPE released a year ago he promised a place as starter to benz in the 12/13 pre season and failed to live up to the promise. Along with other things.

Good luck with jose.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/11/30/barcelona-5-0-real-madrid-tactics/ ( 5-0 analysis) And barca were never really scared of us tbh.

He made massive errors financially, tactically, and with his attitude to player and media. That is undeniable in my opinion.

Now when it comes to the player's role in the demise, believe me it was not war like some might think. Things got ugly only in 3rd season and even then the only guy it got REALLY ugly and personal with was iker but it was a mutual thing.

Mou is leaving because in 3 years as i said in the thread, he constructed a disaster.

Ugh. I do not like your style. You like to not spin - which is different from loving controverse for the sake of it. I chose the path of factual data.

You may be right about Mou's leaderhip, i fear. I know. I have trained multinational ceo's for years. It sounds so familiar. He is one of them. Charismatic, but narcistic. Check out this phd which i had some deal in before going all gung ho on me ... There are plenty examples. Very inspiring but ultimately destructive forces.

http://www.kurtlewininstitute.nl/research/phd-projects/phd-summary/?phd=168

So was Steve Jobs btw .......

Successes may come, but in the long run I agree we might expect damage. It also may be a sacrifice wear willing to take. But are we and is our Abramovich he right one to balance it all out.

Exciting days ahead!

[Fernando 6,455]

Barcelona 100 point in the league.

Negating Mourinho last year record breaking league.....

I will agree with tmo on this one.

3 years at Madrid and Mourinho was shit.

But like I said even hiddink did bad at Madrid.

What will matter is if Mourinho can bounce back and do good with Chelsea.

Most top manager do that, bounce back after a bad period.

If Mourinho is still good he will do great with us. If not he will get the sack like any other managers. Roman is ruthless as shown with the sacking of rdm.

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

To not spin?

Elaborate please

@ Fernando, the problem is that we shouldnt just look at the big picture, if you dissect his actions then his purchases, his attitude, and his tactics and player management here were subpar more often than not, and that is what led to much demise, these are real errors he made not just because he was in real madrid, and most of them are errors he NOT only made in madrid but in past ventures as well.

[IliyaDamyanov 43]

I spend more time here than in Facebook

[Hutcho 8,443]

Everyone makes errors. If his worse spell as a manager resulted in what he did at madrid, then im not even slightly concerned lol.

[Fernando 6,455]

To not spin?

Elaborate please

@ Fernando, the problem is that we shouldnt just look at the big picture, if you dissect his actions then his purchases, his attitude, and his tactics and player management here were subpar more often than not, and that is what led to much demise, these are real errors he made not just because he was in real madrid, and most of them are errors he NOT only made in madrid but in past ventures as well.

Yeah I agree. For the time and money he was mostly bad for Madrid.

For Chelsea, well I rather have AVB back then Mourinho. Because the squad we got is suitable for the philosophy of AVB then it fits Mourinho. If anything city will be the perfect place for him because the squad is like that of Chelsea of old. Big and aggressive players.

Well let's see how this goes.

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

People want to dispel his errors just because its madrid and thats very illogical, specially when your perspectives on real madrid are very equivocated.

If your response to his very real and great massive failings in player management, transfers, behavior, and tactics are all just ignored for the sake hes going to chelsea, then thats practically just being ignorant.

[Stingray 9,441]

To not spin?

Elaborate please

@ Fernando, the problem is that we shouldnt just look at the big picture, if you dissect his actions then his purchases, his attitude, and his tactics and player management here were subpar more often than not, and that is what led to much demise, these are real errors he made not just because he was in real madrid, and most of them are errors he NOT only made in madrid but in past ventures as well.

You claim to come from the no spin zone. That triggered my attention. Most pople saying that do exactly that.

Now .... What do you wanna do on here exactly? I wonder what your goal is. That is pretty fair considering your intro (which I didnt troll as usual) and the following posts.

What?

Just do not spin and be honest. We will love you for it.

Ps: dont try to outwit me.