The Mourinho Thread

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Yes he may have inherited some good players and added to them also but every manager benefit's from players they inherit, Ranieri was saved from the sack in his first full season by the form of three players he inherited of Vialli.

At Chelsea he may have had lots of money to spend and ofcourse that helped him win the trophies he did with us, but if it was just so easy to spend and win Dalglish and Hughes would still be in jobs.

07/08 started badly, but Jose left with us level with United, who started just as badly. Who was to say things would not have improved?

Spending doesn't automatically mean success, a harsh lesson QPR have been taught. Jose came in 04/05. Manpe actually explained why Jose actually overachieved in his first two season's at Chelsea despite the money spent. This is his quote below.

I accept he is not perfect but the pro's overwiegh the con's big time.

This is where you are wrong. Spending does basically equal success.It's statistically proven. Teams that spend, win and teams that win spend. QPR is different because QPR spent 42M from a crappy base of players. Mourinho had teams that were spending 150M with a world-class base already in place. There's spending and then there's spending. Chelsea has had success because we've spent a ridiculous amount of money.

Here we go...team spending over last 3 years...

In Premier League...City, Chelsea, United finishing 2,3,1 in the league

In Spain Madrid, Barcelona, and Malaga (way behind the first two) 2, 1, 6

In Italy, Juventus, Roma, Napoli/Fiorentina. 1, 7, 2, 4

In Germany, Bayern outspends everyone else in the league by ridiculous margins...they finished 1st easily.

Of the big four leagues, the highest spending team finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st, and 1st. Money wins. Period. (And if you don't think that's correlation, you don't understand correlation. There are exceptions. Teams that can rise up without spending, teams that can spend and lose but those are more short-term anomalies than anything else.) I don't understand why people want to maintain this romantic myth of team effort or the genius manager. Those things do matter, but spending is about 90% of what matters and everything else is 10% (instead of pretending it's the other way around.)

And Manpe is absolutely wrong on this and it just shows me how people can easily misremember . Lampard and Terry were both on the PFA team of the year BEFORE Mourinho came. How can you possibly give credit to Mourinho for developing players that were already deemed among the best in the league is beyond me. Mourinho didn't make them into great players. They were already great players. Team of the year is a big fucking deal. The image people want to have of this mediocre team that Mourinho transformed into a winner, is just nonsense. Chelsea did not overachieve in Mourinho's first two seasons. They did exactly as expected.

Man City was also in a completely different situation for a couple of reasons.

1)They were a mid-table side with no superstars. They had a couple of players that would become top ones (like Kompany) but they needed to be developed. We were SECOND the year before and we made the CL semi-final and had a team filled with top-class players like Makalele, Lampard, Terry, Gudjohnson, and Hasselbaink before Mourinho managed a game. We went to the CL semi-finals the year before. We finished second. Man City was 14th when they started getting cash and 9th when the started getting a lot.

2) The Premier League was already transformed when CIty started spending. When we started, nobody was spending much. We literally outpsent the entire rest of the Premier League combined. We spent 300M pounds in two years when other teams were spending 10M pounds a season. The equivalent today would be a team like Spurs, City, or Arsenal going out and spending 500M in two years and then acting like their managers were geniuses when they won and comparing us to City is like pretending that Arsenal going out and spending hundreds of millions and West Ham doing that should end in the same result.

[Strike 7,217]

I will argue with that. Winning with Porto was an incredible achievement even if was in a very poor CL year. After that, his achievements have been much more mpdest and overall, he has done no better than should have been expected. He won with Chelsea with a team that out-spent everyone else in the Premier League about 10-1. He inherited a team that finished second and got to the semi-finals of the CL and had already players like Lampard, Terry, Gudjohnssson, Makalele, etc..He wasn't taking the 1987 Chelsea side to the promised land, he was taking the deepest, probably the most talented, and by far the most expensive squad there. Mourinho's performance at Chelsea was about what should have been expected. In 4 years, we won 2 Premier League titles, a few domestic Cups, and didn't get past the semi-finals in the CL. We got worse every year under Mourinho so by the time he got fired, we were playing awfully despite having an insanely expensive and talented side. People want to think of Mourinho getting fired as a clash of cultures, but it was mostly due to the team sucking under him at the end. We were significantly better under Avram Grant than we were under Mourinho's last while and Grant did nothing

Hello, Devil's Advocate

I agree with some of the views. Mourinho is no god but in the world of a football manager, you have to accept there will be some give and take. your view of his Chelsea work is very pessimistic - highlighting the fact that he already had a good team, spent a lot etc but Mourinho's Chelsea not just won the title but won it by a fair stretch. There was inconsistency only towards the end of the season when the title was practically won. It was the same in the next season as well, losing 2 games after winning the title vs United at home.

As for the decline after the title winning seasons, yes there was a bit of decline yet Chelsea was a very hard team to beat. In his first 3 years, he lost only 7-8 games - all away from home (PL)

He has his cons - for every Essien, there was a Wright-Phillips signed under him. Shevchencko was bad business as well and Mourinho failed to evolve from the spine that made up his first team but I think he is the man to build a team here and take us back up to 'title-challenging' level. No other manager can make the transition faster than he can for the sheer psychological effect of him returning

[Tomo 21,733]

@TorontoChelsea,

Doing exactly as expected would be a close title win, those two title win's were not close, we blown away the competition. No one expected us to be winning those title's with us ease, especially not with that Arsenal team around.

I think the main point off the whole thing, is would Hughes, Dalglish, Sven or any half decent manager had similar success to Mourinho despite the money? and that is a resounding no. Which showes while money helps, you still need a manager who knows what he is doing.

[The Skipper 20,593]

@TorontoChelsea, it's easier to say in hindsight that Mourinho had "world class players" when he came to Chelsea. Yeah, the Essien's, Drogba's, Carvalho's etc. came for big money but they weren't exactly "established" as world class players. They were very much like the Mata and Hazard purchases. Yes, they were both in the PFA team of the year but in no way did that make them established world class players. You're overrating TOTY too much - there are plenty of non world class players that have been selected for team of the year before. JT and Lampard were good talents when Mourinho came but in no way were they at that world class level yet. You've got to give him credit for turning both into one of the best players in the world.

How you give Mourinho no credit for turning JT and Lampard into world stars baffles me. You only have to look at the way they both speak of him. JT was voted in the WORLD XI of the year which is far more prestigious than the PL TOTY a consecutive 5 times after Mourinho came. He was also voted best defender in Europe after Mourinho's first season, and 2 more times after that. Lampard finished runner up in the Ballon D'or when Mourinho was here. You can't argue with that.

Under Mourinho we spent money but it wasn't on nail on established world class talent, it was more with raw talent. You've got to give credit to Mourinho for turning all of these raw players into the players they later became. Drogba was a project, so was Essien, Carvalho, Robben etc.

Yeah, our team slightly declined in his last year here but that was more due to the superstar signings our board made e.g. the Shevchenko's, Ballack's. The Shevchenko money could've definitely been used more efficiently. That summer we

Mourinho does have his negatives, every manager has, but you're undermining what he did here too much. You act like it's easy for any manager to achieve what he did here which is bewildering.

You don't understand why he's so regarded by most Chelsea fans? Surely, winning Chelsea their first league title after 50 years is an achievement? Surely, the way most of his ex players regard him should tell you how much his work and management style impacted on them? I mean, Essien calls him "Daddy" for crying out loud. Lampard, Cech, JT, Ashley regard him very highly. His former players at Inter love him. His former players at Porto still have him deeply in their hearts. He's synonymous with Chelsea's rise to the big stage, Chelsea's becoming of one of the elite clubs in Europe. That's why plenty of Chelsea supporters have an emotional attachment to the man.

I'll reiterate; you're undermining what Mourinho's done here and throughout most of his career. The way your post is phrased makes those who read it think that it's easy for any manager to achieve what he has over the years which simply isn't true.

Yes, you may argue that Chelsea did what was expected of them due to the investment Roman put in (even though plenty were expecting Arsenal to win the title that season), but it isn't always easy to actually meet expectations, as you can easily see with Man City who arguably the best squad in the league for years, a decent manager etc. They should've won more trophies than they did over the last 5 years no matter which way you put it.

Mourinho did exceed expectations in a sense that we absolutely dominated the league when no one expected us to, set a PL points record and went unbeaten at home for his whole time here. That isn't something you "expect". Winning the treble at Inter Milan isn't something anyone "expected" either. Winning the Champions League with Porto wasn't "expected" either.

Money does not guarantee you the success that is expected. You're being way too cynical in your assessment in my opinion.

[didierforever 7,349]

Where'd you father go?

he went for a rather long vacation to milan and madrid... he ll back in , lets say, 2 weeks max...

and dont worry rupert, i heard your father is going to schalke... better that u start supporting them now...

[nachikethas 1,149]

he went for a rather long vacation to milan and madrid... he ll back in , lets say, 2 weeks max...

and dont worry rupert, i heard your father is going to schalke... better that u start supporting them now...

lol

[English Freak 456]

This is where you are wrong. Spending does basically equal success.It's statistically proven. Teams that spend, win and teams that win spend. QPR is different because QPR spent 42M from a crappy base of players. Mourinho had teams that were spending 150M with a world-class base already in place. There's spending and then there's spending. Chelsea has had success because we've spent a ridiculous amount of money.

You got some issue with Mourinho.

As for spending money, you can spend 150 million on top players, but that doesn't guarantee your team will dominate the opposition and win the league title back to back. Mourinho was a key reason behind our dominance, he brought a winning mentality to the club.

[nachikethas 1,149]

For all geniuses thinking why many Chelsea fans are going nuts over a deal that could happen is that we are all humans. We think emotionally than logically in this case. There wont be a bigger emotional thing than reunion with Jose.Why no no one wants benitz as our coach.why no one is crying for mancini in city ( honestly i am just assuming it.)

i like to feel that extra mile in Chelsea than just playing.

[Toli 977]

according to AS, mourinho wont be going before the last 2 games. also there is no meeting on monday and nothing will be announced. stili, they are sure, that these are his last 2 games for Madrid and his departure will be announced when the season ends. dates should be 1st or 2nd june.

http://futbol.as.com/futbol/2013/05/19/primera/1368923518_382155.html

[The only place to be 11,313]

He's a fine manager, but the regard that many Chelsea fans for him is so insanely over-inflated based on what he's actually accomplished. People also forget the negatives and there are negatives. The boring football (and this is not Greece at the Euros, this is taking the most talented team in the world and making them play super-defensively), the ego circus, the sore losing, etc...I just don't get the obsession or the desire to go back there.

It's a tough one to explain, but the culture at Chelsea changed with him. That arrogance and swagger just fits Chelsea Football Club so well, and it endured after he left. It took us to the Champions League final in the season he left, and it was also evident last season in the Lampards, Drogbas and Cechs. That resiliency, that strength and that pragmatism were all something that Jose bought to the club.

And there's still a strong bond with him that one might call love. You love your stats but this is something that goes beyond stats (although I'm sure Jose has some impressive ones still). It's about the emotion of sport, the unquantifiable and the intangible. What Jose does is he creates a team, a 'siege mentality' where it's us against them and that was something magnificent even when we weren't winning things.

Things weren't perfect and that has as much to do with the board at the time as it does with Jose, but both those things have changed. We're not the club who buys Benayouns anymore (hopefully) focusing more on young players with tremendous upside and he is coming off a tough experience in Madrid (where he still has a pretty decent record). It's hard to explain, but this just feels right.

[Term-X 7,891]

What Jose does is he creates a team, a 'siege mentality' where it's us against them and that was something magnificent even when we weren't winning things.

True, the boards decision to sack him was so insular, Mourinho was bigger than a 'moment'. You could say the previous seasons accomplishments were the reason for that, however.. Carlo never had that same affinity with the fans, as demonstrated by the lack of uproar. If Jose' had the same season he'd just had at Madrid, 99% of us would still back him.

[blu35_army 551]

@F8Piraux

José Mourinho to Chelsea FC very soon. #CFC

[BlueLion. 21,491]

HE HAS TOLD HIS INNER CIRCLE

Mourinho going to Chelsea

J. L. CALDERÓN. MADRID 05/19/2013

Mourinho will be the Chelsea manager next season. The Portuguese tactician will bring his adventure at Real Madrid to a close on 30th June and return to England to begin his second stint in charge of the Blues.

The Portuguese manager has already told his innermost circle that the agreement with Chelsea is a done deal. All that was needed to complete his departure from Real Madrid was a new destination, given that his exit from 'Los Blancos' was already decided at the end of last year.

On 3rd December, MARCA led with the cover story: "Divorce on the horizon". It reported that relations between Florentino Pérez and Mourinho had come to a head, and that the Portuguese manager's reign was at an end.

There have been six months of rumours about Mourinho's next port of call. Manchester City, United, PSG, Inter and Chelsea are the teams which have been talked about the most. It turns out that Abramovich and Mou are willing to give each other another go.

One of Chelsea's captains, Frank Lampard, has already spoken about the future which awaits him with Mourinho. Mou has also been hinting at it in recent weeks, without a great degree of subtlety at times. In his inner circle, people have joked about the legacy which Chelsea's current boss Rafa Benítez leaves behind for him, comparing it to the one which the Portuguese left the Spaniard at Inter when he took charge of the Italian side.

With Inter, Benítez contested the European Super Cup (which he lost), the Italian Super Cup (which he won) and the Club World Cup (which he also won). Mou will contest the European Super Cup thanks to Rafa.

http://www.marca.com/2013/05/19/en/football/real_madrid/1368945895.html

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True, the boards decision to sack him was so insular, Mourinho was bigger than a 'moment'. You could say the previous seasons accomplishments were the reason for that, however.. Carlo never had that same affinity with the fans, as demonstrated by the lack of uproar. If Jose' had the same season he'd just had at Madrid, 99% of us would still back him.

^ This. The human element of a manager is often overlooked.

[Toli 977]

True, the boards decision to sack him was so insular, Mourinho was bigger than a 'moment'. You could say the previous seasons accomplishments were the reason for that, however.. Carlo never had that same affinity with the fans, as demonstrated by the lack of uproar. If Jose' had the same season he'd just had at Madrid, 99% of us would still back him.

it was the right deicison. we was playing awful and he had stress with JT as I remember and other players of the squad. hell, we did even loose to rosenborg in the CL. think if you would look a few years back ago, most of the people did want him to go at chelsea, because we were playing awful, not getting results and were clearly on the downhill. but some people now are just blind because of emotions...

[Strike 7,217]

http://www.marca.com/2013/05/19/en/football/real_madrid/1368945895.html

Everyone's expecting it but better wait till Monday when he speaks to Perez.

If it is indeed confirmed on Monday, I expect the forum to crash. A wankfest 6 months in the making

[Toli 977]

^ it is not confirmed that he will speak to perez on monday. AS is saying there wont be any meeting and he will finish season normally. Marca, El Mundo are saying he could be sacked on monday. so lets wait and see

[Term-X 7,891]

it was the right deicison. we was playing awful and he had stress with JT as I remember and other players of the squad. hell, we did even loose to rosenborg in the CL. think if you would look a few years back ago, most of the people did want him to go at chelsea, because we were playing awful, not getting results and were clearly on the downhill. but some people now are just blind because of emotions...

Nope.

It was a mind bending decision by the board and down to club ownership naivety, that.. and Roman's broken down relationship with Jose'. Which clearly effected things on the pitch (not enough waitrose eggs were purchased). All in all though, you are going to have 'dips in form' at some point in the season, Jose' could have revived the campaign like Grant Steve Clark did. The sacking itself was shocking (worst moment as a football fan, worse than moscow), fans were crying and protesting outside stamford bridge, The JT fall out was fabricated and he himself denies any rift.