The English Football Thread

[Vesper 27,342]

10 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Agree.

Would say Lindelof has improved under Ole (after a few seasons where he struggled under Jose) and Wan Bissaka, who is very good defensively but they are lacking half a defence basically so if they ever play a bit more openly they will get caught out. Even then you ideally need 4 good fullbacks and 4 good CBs to compete for titles.

We are no different. We have issues at LB and CB except Tomori and Rudiger (who can play much much better). Zouma will never suit us if we continue down the path we are going, he still struggles reading the game and playing out from the back. I do still have a slight hope that Christensen can turn it around but if he is here next season and doesn't really improve he could go. Well thats if Frank is going to be ruthless like he was with Luiz. Few others in the same situation in other positions. 

Maguire for 80mn is still nowhere near as good as he was ever made out to be and while Shaw has kicked on he has really not hit the heights you'd have expected (although his consistency has improved a bit but he would be a bench player at City or Liverpool). Their roles in that goal v Spurs the other night was shocking, laughable really, Maguire looked like a Championship player the way he was beaten and Shaw just didn't look around him and ran forward without thinking. 

The overall quality of defenders in the PL really has decreased though. Bar van Dijk and Laporte who for me are the standout ones, I don't really see any real quality at other teams. Guys like Joe Gomez, Lindelof, Rudi, Matip, Vertonghen and Alderweireld as well as a few others I will have missed are maybe in/were the bracket below but even then the gap between those and VVD and Laporte is big. That young Turkish fella at Leicester has got potential but I do think he has to be careful guys like Christensen and Davinson Sanchez have done well then faded so will reserve proper judgement to see how he does next season.
 

It is weird though at a lot of clubs, I get the feeling coaches don't seem to focus on defensive set plays or shape anywhere near as much now and it has shown more than ever in the last 7 or 8 years in British football imo. 

 

Super post 

Manure need a WC CB, LB, DMF and RW (my nightmare is Sancho) and they are then near title winning level. OGS would then be the main barrier.

Koulibaly, Alex Sandro, Thomas Partey, Sancho plus Poch = nightmare 

[Vesper 27,342]

4 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

People are expecting from UTD to win all games? This season they have won something like 1.6 points per game on average.

Every team will still drop a lot of points. Basically like in the end of last season.

They have a great chance to win all the rest leading up to the last game (Leicester)

They literally play nothing but shit, and Pogba is back and looks engaged.

[OneMoSalah 8,615]

26 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Super post 

Manure need a WC CB, LB, DMF and RW (my nightmare is Sancho) and they are then near title winning level. OGS would then be the main barrier.

Koulibaly, Alex Sandro, Thomas Partey, Sancho plus Poch = nightmare 

I think with those level of signings, even with Ole who isn't or never will be as highly regarded as those others, they'd still be very formidable. He doesn't strike me as the sort of guy who would alienate/burn people out like we seen with Mourinho and Conte here and they've bought into what hes trying to do.

Fair enough Pep, Klopp as well as a few other managers would be better tactically and maybe make tactical tweaks to alter games but very good players are very good players and ultimately they make the difference in key moments.

This is another reason why Frank has got to get the correct backing and recruitment here (Ziyech and Werner are in the correct mould along with Kovacic, Jorginho and Pulisic). Just as it would be the same with Jose at Spurs or Arteta at Arsenal. Good recruitment is so vital. If you take Son, Kane and Lo Celso out of Spurs team for instance or Lacazette and Aubamayang out of Arsenals team, they are very average but those guys can make the difference which ultimately can get you another X amount of points a season. Surrounded by the right players that can be the difference between finishing 1st or 2nd or 4th and 5th.
 

Obviously managers are important but we seen what Pep needed to win trophies at City and what Klopp needed to get titles at Liverpool. I still think if City had Pellegrini or Mancini they would still be up there to win the league with the squad they have now. Just like whenever Pep leaves and they continue recruiting as they have been since 2010 they will still be competing. 

[NikkiCFC 7,591]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

They have a great chance to win all the rest leading up to the last game (Leicester)

They literally play nothing but shit, and Pogba is back and looks engaged.

They have 7 games left. Against these opponents in first part of the season from possible 21 points they won just 8!

They lost against West Ham, Crystal Palace and Bournemouth. Draw with Villa and Southampton and beat only Leicester and Brighton.

They have much better record this season against better teams on paper. This is PL everyone can harm you.

They do look much better now, lets see...

 

[NikkiCFC 7,591]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

Obviously managers are important but we seen what Pep needed to win trophies at City and what Klopp needed to get titles at Liverpool. I still think if City had Pellegrini or Mancini they would still be up there to win the league with the squad they have now. Just like whenever Pep leaves and they continue recruiting as they have been since 2010 they will still be competing. 

Actually Mancini and Pellegrini won titles already with weaker squads. Plus they also won some other domestic trophies...

Pep have more in quantity but he got lucky many times to win CS, Fa cup, League Cup on penalties. 

In the end of the day PL and CL are what matters the most.

If Pep fails to win CL this season that would mean 2 PL and 0 CL in four years. With this squad I am sure they wanted more. He did not even reach semi final yet unlike Pellegrini.

And every season he got knocked out by weaker squad: young Monaco team, Liverpool 17-18 and Spurs... They also spent more money than any other team in the world in this period.

 

[communicate 2,703]

2 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Agree.

Would say Lindelof has improved under Ole (after a few seasons where he struggled under Jose) and Wan Bissaka, who is very good defensively but they are lacking half a defence basically so if they ever play a bit more openly they will get caught out. Even then you ideally need 4 good fullbacks and 4 good CBs to compete for titles.

We are no different. We have issues at LB and CB except Tomori and Rudiger (who can play much much better). Zouma will never suit us if we continue down the path we are going, he still struggles reading the game and playing out from the back. I do still have a slight hope that Christensen can turn it around but if he is here next season and doesn't really improve he could go. Well thats if Frank is going to be ruthless like he was with Luiz. Few others in the same situation in other positions. 

Maguire for 80mn is still nowhere near as good as he was ever made out to be and while Shaw has kicked on he has really not hit the heights you'd have expected (although his consistency has improved a bit but he would be a bench player at City or Liverpool). Their roles in that goal v Spurs the other night was shocking, laughable really, Maguire looked like a Championship player the way he was beaten and Shaw just didn't look around him and ran forward without thinking. 

The overall quality of defenders in the PL really has decreased though. Bar van Dijk and Laporte who for me are the standout ones, I don't really see any real quality at other teams. Guys like Joe Gomez, Lindelof, Rudi, Matip, Vertonghen and Alderweireld as well as a few others I will have missed are maybe in/were the bracket below but even then the gap between those and VVD and Laporte is big. That young Turkish fella at Leicester has got potential but I do think he has to be careful guys like Christensen and Davinson Sanchez have done well then faded so will reserve proper judgement to see how he does next season.
 

It is weird though at a lot of clubs, I get the feeling coaches don't seem to focus on defensive set plays or shape anywhere near as much now and it has shown more than ever in the last 7 or 8 years in British football imo. 

 

I personally disagree saying that the level of cb has drop. IMO team are becoming more offensive and pressing is becoming more important, it is very rare to see big team to play in deep defensive line. 

[OneMoSalah 8,615]

2 hours ago, communicate said:

I personally disagree saying that the level of cb has drop. IMO team are becoming more offensive and pressing is becoming more important, it is very rare to see big team to play in deep defensive line. 

In England it has. 

From 2000 to say I dont know 2012, there were a much much better quality of CBs playing in the PL. Particularly at the top teams. Now there aren't anywhere near as many of top level CBs in the PL. The quality of CBs maybe isn't dropping all around Europe but most of the very very best ones do not play in the Premier League. Where beforehand your Rios, Terrys, Stams, Vidics, Carvalhos, Campbells, Adams and the rest of them did.

I do agree football has moved away from playing deeper and defending but even then, teams defending in general and organisation at corners and free kicks has steadily gotten worse in the PL, championship and SPL. While the average possession or passes per game in the PL might be higher than Spain/Italy/Germany and there may be more goals, the fact that we are now regularly talking about us, Arsenal and United severely lacking top CBs, holding all teams back to an extent sums it up. Even more so that all the names being linked to us, United and Arsenal in those positions are always from Spain, Germany or Italy.

Obviously defending isn't just down to CBs but you see the difference VVD made to Liverpools back 4. Or when Vincent Kompany made big big strides at City when they started winning trophies with Mancini, you could see the difference when he played in their backline and when he didn't. You see how in stark contrast for instance David Luiz at Arsenal, when he plays and is seen as more of a ‘leadership’ figure, they are all over the place. As well obviously there is the coaching element, it is not unlikely that some coaches very rarely do shape or any defensive set play work as they think it isn't as important/will be monotonous/or whatever else out of 10000 reasons there could be which I think is mental. Could you imagine Italians not doing shape? Or defensive set plays? But it is also obvious to see that Man United dont have quality CBs like Jaap Stam, Rio Ferdinand or Nemanja Vidic or that we don't have quality CBs such as Marcel Desailly, John Terry or Ricardo Carvalho or Arsenal dont have quality CBs such as Sol Campbell or Tony Adams. The quality of CBs playing in the PL at the top clubs isnt what it was. 

 

[Vesper 27,342]

7 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

They have 7 games left. Against these opponents in first part of the season from possible 21 points they won just 8!

They lost against West Ham, Crystal Palace and Bournemouth. Draw with Villa and Southampton and beat only Leicester and Brighton.

They have much better record this season against better teams on paper. This is PL everyone can harm you.

They do look much better now, lets see...

 

Pogba helps them loads

I know he is hated here but I still rate him a top 5 CMF on the planet when he is fit and motivated, which it appears he is

he is very unique

when Pep and Klopp fuck off both the dipper scum and shitty will drop off (the dippers have around 3 more seasons max to reap huge hardware, as their core will be too old after that and I do not see them managing it well so far, plus Klopp surely wont stay there forever, if Barca had half a brain they would be looking to scoop him up down the road)

Manure always will worry me as if they finally get their shit together, they are capable of a long roll, Sancho on that side is a nightmare )they wil also buy a class CB and fill in the other holes I am sure by the end of next summer window)

I always had a grudging respect for them as a real old school powerhouse, the league has been lucky they have never come close to replacing Fergie (Ed Woodward is a train wreck overall)

I have nothing but disdain for Spuds (only thing they have is that cracking stadium), Arse (what a joke they have become, insanely mismanaged), Shitty and the Victims

[killer1257 3,282]

I watched the first half of United game. Pogba was good, but Martial and Rashford were the main events yesterday.

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

[Special Juan 27,104]

I won't watch United, the cum fest over them and Liverpool is cringe worthy.

[Vesper 27,342]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

In England it has. 

From 2000 to say I dont know 2012, there were a much much better quality of CBs playing in the PL. Particularly at the top teams. Now there aren't anywhere near as many of top level CBs in the PL. The quality of CBs maybe isn't dropping all around Europe but most of the very very best ones do not play in the Premier League. Where beforehand your Rios, Terrys, Stams, Vidics, Carvalhos, Campbells, Adams and the rest of them did.

I do agree football has moved away from playing deeper and defending but even then, teams defending in general and organisation at corners and free kicks has steadily gotten worse in the PL, championship and SPL. While the average possession or passes per game in the PL might be higher than Spain/Italy/Germany and there may be more goals, the fact that we are now regularly talking about us, Arsenal and United severely lacking top CBs, holding all teams back to an extent sums it up. Even more so that all the names being linked to us, United and Arsenal in those positions are always from Spain, Germany or Italy.

Obviously defending isn't just down to CBs but you see the difference VVD made to Liverpools back 4. Or when Vincent Kompany made big big strides at City when they started winning trophies with Mancini, you could see the difference when he played in their backline and when he didn't. You see how in stark contrast for instance David Luiz at Arsenal, when he plays and is seen as more of a ‘leadership’ figure, they are all over the place. As well obviously there is the coaching element, it is not unlikely that some coaches very rarely do shape or any defensive set play work as they think it isn't as important/will be monotonous/or whatever else out of 10000 reasons there could be which I think is mental. Could you imagine Italians not doing shape? Or defensive set plays? But it is also obvious to see that Man United dont have quality CBs like Jaap Stam, Rio Ferdinand or Nemanja Vidic or that we don't have quality CBs such as Marcel Desailly, John Terry or Ricardo Carvalho or Arsenal dont have quality CBs such as Sol Campbell or Tony Adams. The quality of CBs playing in the PL at the top clubs isnt what it was. 

 

atm there are only 2 true WC CB's in the entire league

Virgil van Dijk    
Aymeric Laporte    

MASSIVE drop after them

if I had to grab 4 (Rudiger is in the top 5 or 6 in the EPL which shows you how much the quality has fallen)

meaning all 4 of ours are poofed, sent out of the league, and Laporte and VVD are off limits 

then I would take

Caglar Söyüncü
Declan Rice (like I said, I see him at CB in the end, and obviously he can play DMF and CMF so a huge plus for versatility)
Davinson Sánchez 
Joe Gomez  (RB ability is good too)

after them Issa Diop

fuck Stones and Maguire, especially Stones, hell if Lewis Dunk was 24 or 25 and not 29 in five months, I would take him over Stones (no, not joking, I have seen Dunk be a fucking wall for 3 years now, he is massive in the air and in size overall, and has more pace than Maguire, he just is not that great on the ball, but is better there than Zouma)

absolutely zero interest in any other current EPL CB I did not list (I am not going to get into academy players or exotics like saying oh! Rodri at CB, lol)

[MoroccanBlue 5,200]

Ozil yet again on the bench and Martinelli still MIA

[Special Juan 27,104]

No Guendozi either.

[Atomiswave 6,072]

25 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Ozil yet again on the bench and Martinelli still MIA

Martinelli has knee injury

[Vesper 27,342]

Southampton  v Arse  HD Streams

http://www.sportnews.to/sports/2020/premier-league-southampton-vs-arsenal-s1/

https://www.totalsportek.com/arsenal-streams/

[DDA 9,570]

What the fuck was that Keeper thinking. Unbelievable Jeff

[Special Juan 27,104]

pathetic that

[DDA 9,570]

This Arsenal team is trash. If Southampton ramp it up they can come back into this quite easily.