Graham Potter Thread

[Blue Armour 4,368]

While I admit Potter is terrible atm, I still find it hard to think Arteta showed signs of quality, especially in his first two years.

I'll admit he was good in spells last season (especially after they got their injured players back), but his first 1-2 seasons at Arsenal looked terrible.

He took Unai Emerys already terrible team and made them perform worse, barring a couple of fluke cup wins (especially the one against us). And played some awful defensive football along the way. 

I could be mistaken., but that's just how I remember Arteta before last season.

[Strike 7,317]

  On 03/01/2023 at 19:32, Vegetable said:

Where this is even going, Brighton played "good football" and finished 16th (lol), how is it supposed to reassure Chelsea fans Potter is the man for the job? When Sarri was at helm, we've had 99% possesion and million passes (mostly vertical!) done, yet people would not stop bashing him for lack of end result. 

I think, after all, points and silverware are more satisfying than xG and this whole "style" debacle is useless - let's start winning and most people will stop whining about backpasses at once.

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Looking back - Sarri changed the way we played significantly by refreshing the midfield - Bakayoko, Fabregas left Jorginho and Kovacic walked in. This change had a big effect on our best performances even under Lampard and Tuchel - where the team was able to break the press of top teams like City, Madrid. I remember there was a 2-1 loss vs City under Lampard where the team looked extremely comfortable breaking City's feared pressing. Under Tuchel, we beat City thrice in a row in 21. Kante Jorgi and Kova all at their peak in that run. All this was partly due to the attention paid to "good football".

Our midfield signing after Jorgi/Kova if you ignore the Saul, Zakaria loans is going to be Enzo if we can get the deal over the line - It has been long overdue. I'd wait and give Potter time with the team they aim to build.

[Vesper 29,409]

"MILLIONS IN THE SHREDDER!" 😳 Andy Jacobs GOES IN HARD on Chelsea!

https://www.Chelsea-news.co/2023/01/video-ive-never-seen-a-team-more-dependent-on-one-player-chelseas-nightmare-2022-summed-up/

Chelsea’s season can be broken into two parts – the bits with Reece James and the bits without.

They have played well and won when he’s in the team, and struggled and lost without him.

That was the point they were making on TalkSport today, with Michael Calvin even claiming “I’ve never seen a team more dependent on one player.”

Well, we’ll be without him for a while again now, and there are no solutions on the horizon. Without Reece we can’t beat the weakest teams in the league – let alone Man City.

You can see their discussion in the clip embedded here:

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Vesper

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 04/01/2023 at 04:33, Blue Armour said:

While I admit Potter is terrible atm, I still find it hard to think Arteta showed signs of quality, especially in his first two years.

I'll admit he was good in spells last season (especially after they got their injured players back), but his first 1-2 seasons at Arsenal looked terrible.

He took Unai Emerys already terrible team and made them perform worse, barring a couple of fluke cup wins (especially the one against us). And played some awful defensive football along the way. 

I could be mistaken., but that's just how I remember Arteta before last season.

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I did not either. That's why I've been banging on "intent."

you could see what he was trying to do from the get go: players would attempt a pass in dangerous positions conceding goals as result of that. He did not have the players to do that and tbf, it does take time to develop that style of play as it takes a lot of discipline and hard work. Player like Aubameyang simply do not fit in that system. They still depend on players doing their thing tho; they missed Jesus today I reckon... there was just some energy missing up front and newcastle are now a diffcult team to beat with Joellington and Guimaraes in the middle.

While folks have pointed to numbers and performances, I did not, and do not see, what the intent is with potter. Perhaps he's also imply lacking the players to implement his ideas, but I honestly do not know what they are... like specifically as I did Arteta's. BTW, I'm actually not a big fan of that system (Pep's and Ateta's) as I think it's extremely fragile in cups, which happens to be what CL is.

Edited January 4, 2023 by robsblubot

[OneMoSalah 8,832]

  On 03/01/2023 at 20:00, Jype said:

.

And btw, the football under Sarri was terrible. So much possession for so very little chance creation. The only reason it worked even reasonably well was that we still had a prime-Hazard to bail us out with some great individual brilliance. Replace 2018 Hazard in that squad with a current day Pulisic and under Sarri that team would have struggled to score 40 goals in the league over the season.

 

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I actually disagree. I think the signings of players like Ziyech, Werner and Pulisic would of suited us under Sarri a lot more than any other coach because 2 of the 3 of them, they were the sort of players we missed/lacked/needed to upgrade. Werner would of certainly got chances with his movement in a Sarri team in the same way Jose Callejon did and even Pedro did. Ziyech would of been a wide playmaker in the way that Insigne was also. Which suits him well. Guys like Mount and James would of also been significantly important to Sarri also like Hysaj and Zielinski/Hamsik.

In the final third we were hopeless with Sarri but really Pedro was the only attacker that suited his system well. Hazard was world class and on his day as good as he wanted to be but him and Willian were guilty of coming towards the ball too much, taking far too many touches or not running off the ball in behind teams. Yes Hazard also had the dependency of the other players to deal with because he had been the key man in the team for years but as a collective relying on him for so long specifically under Jose I think made us such a blunt side because everyone knew the plan was give it to Eden, let him do the rest.

In the first two thirds of the pitch under Sarri we made significant progress in terms of building out from the back, passing sequences and working the ball into areas just up to the final third. Even then, goals have always been an issue since we sold Diego Costa so to say Sarri’s football stifled our attack that badly, when really, in the past however many seasons, we’ve struggled to be prolific in a lot of aspects is just selective.

Edited January 4, 2023 by OneMoSalah

[Jype 6,398]

  On 04/01/2023 at 06:27, robsblubot said:

While folks have pointed to numbers and performances, I did not, and do not see, what the intent is with potter. Perhaps he's also imply lacking the players to implement his ideas, but I honestly do not know what they are... like specifically as I did Arteta's. BTW, I'm actually not a big fan of that system (Pep's and Ateta's) as I think it's extremely fragile in cups, which happens to be what CL is.

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You don't say?

With hugely important players like Kante, James, Chilwell and Fofana all out simultaneously for all of the last 10-15 games (Kante even longer) I struggle to see how anyone would perform miracles with this squad. On top of that we're desperately crying out for a striker yet we have only Aubameyang, who was always going to be just a mediocre stop-gap, and Havertz who's been underperforming ever since joining the club. Pulisic and Ziyech have also been terrible for years under each and every manager and they were never going to magically step up with just a managerial change. Silva is also starting to look his age so having a leaky midfield, James/Chilwell also out has only amplified that problem. Azpilicueta has looked over the hill since last season but for some reason got an extension last summer before Potter even came in.

All together it's very much a dysfunctional group of players that Potter so far has had absolutely fuck all chance to try and repair so I don't think it's a surprise we're not seeing him implement his ideas to the team's play yet.

For me the jury is still very much out on Potter. Right now I too am not seeing his 'identity' on the team but I definitely saw it at Brighton and I liked what I saw so as it's still relatively early into his career at the club and the squad is a total mess due to no fault of his own (the long term key injuries and neglectful squad building under the previous manager) I'm willing to look past this problem for now and let him work in peace.

He won't be allowed, nor should he be, to play mediocre football for years like Arteta while waiting/hoping for things to click together but making a judgement based on about 2 months of football while the manager has had no input to the squad building and has also been battling with an injury crisis is so very unfair IMO. Personally I'm just planning to keep an open mind till the rest of the season and with a full summer transfer window and a full pre-season we need to start seeing much better things very early into next season. If Potter can't deliver that, he needs to be sacked before next Christmas and be replaced with someone whose playing style is suite to delivering the goods with the same group of players. 

[Vegetable 830]

  On 04/01/2023 at 11:02, Jype said:

All together it's very much a dysfunctional group of players that Potter so far has had absolutely fuck all chance to try and repair so I don't think it's a surprise we're not seeing him implement his ideas to the team's play yet.

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Being picky, but I have to say it's quite amazing for me why Potter is getting so much slack here - so far, all our previous managers - Sarri, Lampard, Tuchel had to (and did so) implement their tactics and philosophy from the very first game, with same or worse group of players. I know they took over between seasons, but c'mon - they did turn things around from first game and now we are suddenly giving Potter 10, 15 or 30 games to sit and look around? All 7 or 8 previous games is playing what was left by Tuchel, tactic-wise and personnel-wise, except we lack the crosses into box now, so only way to score now is penalties or some weird accident.

If the club had appointed manager, who has no freaking idea what to do with the team mid-season, then it's even more ridiculous, than appointing someone of Potter's format at all in the first place.

And seriously, we love to criticize our players here, but Jorgi, Pulisic, Havertz and so on are not some skill-less idiots. With Tuchel there was a problem of finishing and being clinical, now we suddenly have problem of playing football better, than worst team in league. 90% of world's managers would give up their leg for most of our squad, it's a matter of manager to know how to play for their's strengths and how to make this bunch an actual team. Yes, we need to shop around for better players, but we need them to excel in PL and CL, not to prevent dropping to Championship for god's sake.

If poor Potter cannot implement his great ideas with players Chelsea have, than maybe it's time for him to sod off, maybe some Norwegian league will provide him with players adequate to his tactical vision. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Vegetable

[Jype 6,398]

  On 04/01/2023 at 14:35, Vegetable said:

Being picky, but I have to say it's quite amazing for me why Potter is getting so much slack here - so far, all our previous managers - Sarri, Lampard, Tuchel had to (and did so) implement their tactics and philosophy from the very first game, with same or worse group of players. I know they took over between seasons, but c'mon - they did turn things around from first game and now we are suddenly giving Potter 10, 15 or 30 games to sit and look around? All 7 or 8 previous games is playing what was left by Tuchel, tactic-wise and personnel-wise, except we lack the crosses into box now, so only way to score now is penalties or some weird accident.

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Take away James, Chilwell, Kante and Rüdiger from the time Tuchel took over and the ride would have been a lot bumpier early on, wouldn't you say? On top of the key players being consistently fit, at the time Azpi, Silva and Jorginho were also a couple years younger with more mileage left on their legs so how exactly was that squad 'same or worse' than the one we've had available in the last 10 games or so? 

Maybe despite an injury crisis it would still have been better than what Potter has come up with but it most certainly wouldn't have ended in a CL victory, that's for fucking sure. Even last season when Tuchel lost key players like Kante, James and Chilwell simultaneously to injuries our form went to shit and we fell from top of the league to 1 win in 8 games around December 2021.

I'm just calling it as I see it and this revisionism just seems funny to me.

Say we sack Potter on the spot after losing to City tomorrow, who would you say has to come in that immediately elevates the squad and makes top 4 this season? Has to be a realistic option from whoever's free. If the answer is no one, isn't it better to relax a little bit and just see out the season and give the man a chance? If the football shows no signs of improvement when key players get back from the sick bay and possible new signings gets settled in, a managerial change can be a topic for discussion after the season is over and there are potentially better candidates available.

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 04/01/2023 at 11:02, Jype said:

You don't say?

With hugely important players like Kante, James, Chilwell and Fofana all out simultaneously for all of the last 10-15 games (Kante even longer) I struggle to see how anyone would perform miracles with this squad. On top of that we're desperately crying out for a striker yet we have only Aubameyang, who was always going to be just a mediocre stop-gap, and Havertz who's been underperforming ever since joining the club. Pulisic and Ziyech have also been terrible for years under each and every manager and they were never going to magically step up with just a managerial change. Silva is also starting to look his age so having a leaky midfield, James/Chilwell also out has only amplified that problem. Azpilicueta has looked over the hill since last season but for some reason got an extension last summer before Potter even came in.

All together it's very much a dysfunctional group of players that Potter so far has had absolutely fuck all chance to try and repair so I don't think it's a surprise we're not seeing him implement his ideas to the team's play yet.

For me the jury is still very much out on Potter. Right now I too am not seeing his 'identity' on the team but I definitely saw it at Brighton and I liked what I saw so as it's still relatively early into his career at the club and the squad is a total mess due to no fault of his own (the long term key injuries and neglectful squad building under the previous manager) I'm willing to look past this problem for now and let him work in peace.

He won't be allowed, nor should he be, to play mediocre football for years like Arteta while waiting/hoping for things to click together but making a judgement based on about 2 months of football while the manager has had no input to the squad building and has also been battling with an injury crisis is so very unfair IMO. Personally I'm just planning to keep an open mind till the rest of the season and with a full summer transfer window and a full pre-season we need to start seeing much better things very early into next season. If Potter can't deliver that, he needs to be sacked before next Christmas and be replaced with someone whose playing style is suite to delivering the goods with the same group of players. 

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Fofana is important now? that's a bit of a stretch eh.

The issue here is that most if not all issues with players and roster applied to Tuchel. I have my own idea about how much input Tuchel had in building the squad, but it's the same crop of players with the same injury proneness. Some here would say Cucurella is a huge improvement over Alonso (I'm not one of them); that koulibaly was a good signing, that Sterling is an improvement over Werner (again not for me).

While managers get some leeway into building the squad, they also have to work with what they got. That was said about Tuchel, and it applies to Potter as well.

I'm not going into Arteta once again; I believe everybody knew his school of thought coming from City and Pep's wing. Arsenal merely wanted that style of play and bet on someone who could perhaps deliver it.
I'm not sure what Potter is all about at this level and so far I've seen nothing interesting about his work so far. Yes, it is early days, but once again I don't see the "intent." What is the key aspects of the football he wants his team to play? Is it all applicable to a club like Chelsea with its peculiar set of players? I for one find it interesting Potter gets so much backing around here because for me he hasn't done enough to be here to begin with.

Edited January 4, 2023 by robsblubot

[MoroccanBlue 5,322]

  On 04/01/2023 at 17:14, robsblubot said:

I for one find it interesting Potter gets so much backing around here because for me he hasn't done enough to be here to begin with.

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Well what other choice do we have?

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 04/01/2023 at 17:16, MoroccanBlue said:

Well what other choice do we have?

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Reckon if you look at Potter resume, a lot of managers would fit the bill. "No experience at a top club" in particular would broaden the scope quite a bit.

Edited January 4, 2023 by robsblubot

[ZAPHOD2319 4,598]

  On 04/01/2023 at 17:14, robsblubot said:

I for one find it interesting Potter gets so much backing around here because for me he hasn't done enough to be here to begin with.

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A manager that took a promoted team, coached up the talent they had while adding players that were not out of their small budget and getting them to the top of the table doesn't appeal to you? He was tipped to take over the English National team. I am really shocked at how much venom the guy has received.

[Jype 6,398]

  On 04/01/2023 at 17:14, robsblubot said:

Fofana is important now? that's a bit of a stretch eh.

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Well of course he fucking is.

While his injury means he's still somewhat of an unknown variable when it comes to performing in a Chelsea shirt, not having him means the CB department is with a 100% certainty much worse than what Tuchel consistently had at his disposal, for example.

With no more Rüdiger, no more Christensen and Silva finally starting to look like his decline has begun are you seriously saying we haven't missed Fofana being available? If we still had all the CBs from last season I wouldn't be saying he's an important player without him proving it on the pitch first but when he's the key replacement for another important player who has left the club then isn't it pretty much a given that he is too?

And yeah, even if we ignore Fofana that still leaves Kante out for the entirety of Potter's managerial reign as well as James & Chilwell out for the last 12 games apart from James' brief appearance against Bournemouth when he got injured again. I'm just saying that when Tuchel had similar injury problems last season our form went out of the window as well and at least he still had Rüdiger to lock up the defense.

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 04/01/2023 at 17:21, ZAPHOD2319 said:

A manager that took a promoted team, coached up the talent they had while adding players that were not out of their small budget and getting them to the top of the table doesn't appeal to you? He was tipped to take over the English National team. I am really shocked at how much venom the guy has received.

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Not enough for me no... many other managers doing impressive things in different leagues and PL proven is only relative given the striking differences between the top clubs and the smaller ones. NT means little these days as the top managers stay clear of.

  On 04/01/2023 at 17:51, Jype said:

Well of course he fucking is.

While his injury means he's still somewhat of an unknown variable when it comes to performing in a Chelsea shirt, not having him means the CB department is with a 100% certainty much worse than what Tuchel consistently had at his disposal, for example.

With no more Rüdiger, no more Christensen and Silva finally starting to look like his decline has begun are you seriously saying we haven't missed Fofana being available? If we still had all the CBs from last season I wouldn't be saying he's an important player without him proving it on the pitch first but when he's the key replacement for another important player who has left the club then isn't it pretty much a given that he is too?

And yeah, even if we ignore Fofana that still leaves Kante out for the entirety of Potter's managerial reign as well as James & Chilwell out for the last 12 games apart from James' brief appearance against Bournemouth when he got injured again. I'm just saying that when Tuchel had similar injury problems last season our form went out of the window as well and at least he still had Rüdiger to lock up the defense.

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Fofona is a question mark at best, but agree that important for depth.

Agree to disagree on the rest there, because Tuchel had already lost Ruddier and Andreas in his last season (were they giving 100% the season before?). It's been discussed plenty around here. I myself, wrote that Klopp had similar issues when he lost VVD for a season... there was no coming back from losing Rudiger IMO. Kante fitness has been questionable for years now. James injury proneness also not new. Once again, many here hated Alonso, so Cucurella *must* be an improvement no? Others also hated Werner, and lauded Sterling as a huge improvement.

I think that the bottom line is that some of us think betting on Potter makes sense while others think it does not. I'm in the latter group and think the current ownership are completely out of their depth.

Edited January 4, 2023 by robsblubot

[Vegetable 830]

  On 04/01/2023 at 17:21, ZAPHOD2319 said:

A manager that took a promoted team, coached up the talent they had while adding players that were not out of their small budget and getting them to the top of the table doesn't appeal to you? 

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That's a bit of a stretch, eh? He is being portrayed by his backers as the face behind Leicester-like story, while Brighton did decent, but not spectacular by any means.

I guess "the venom" comes from fact that he is not Chelsea level for one and he is neither one of our own nor some exciting and honoured tactical philosopher, so there is no real reason to stand behind him except for TB had hired him. Plus, so far he has ZERO input on the team and like 4 points from 8 games. No sign of roster rotation, no sign of tactical idea or Mourinho-like mentality change we crave so much. Actually, he seems to be the opposite of what Mourinho tried to impose here. He doesn't seem to be one of a kind in any way as the other Guy say and Chelsea is no place for mediocrity. He'd do as caretaker manager, but plan for him is all but this.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Vegetable

[Jype 6,398]

  On 04/01/2023 at 18:08, robsblubot said:

 

Fofona is a question mark at best, but agree that important for depth.
Agree to disagree on the rest there, because Tuchel had already lost Ruddier and Andreas in his last season. It's been discussed plenty around here. I myself, wrote that Klopp had similar issues when he lost VVD for a season... there was no coming back from losing Rudiger IMO.

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What are you even talking about?

Are you saying 'in his last season' as in this season where Tuchel stayed in charge for what, 5 games? Because last season (2021/22) Tuchel still very much had both of them in the squad.

So you recognize the importance of having lost Rüdiger and even go on to say 'there was no coming back from losing him' but then still go all-in with your criticism of Potter for not working miracles with inferior players? Gotcha.

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 04/01/2023 at 18:18, Jype said:

What are you even talking about?

Are you saying 'in his last season' as in this season where Tuchel stayed in charge for what, 5 games? Because last season (2021/22) Tuchel still very much had both of them in the squad.

So you recognize the importance of having lost Rüdiger and even go on to say 'there was no coming back from losing him' but then still go all-in with your criticism of Potter for not working miracles with inferior players? Gotcha.

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If you think players running down their contracts give 100% 🤷‍♂️

My opinion is very simple and you are welcome to disagree with it, evidently:

Potter shouldn't have been given the opportunity to begin with. He's not ready (if he will ever be ready) to manage a team like Chelsea coming from a nothing club. I hope he succeeds, but I don't believe he will.

[Jype 6,398]

  On 04/01/2023 at 19:04, robsblubot said:

If you think players running down their contracts give 100% 🤷‍♂️

 

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There was definitely no slacking from Rüdiger, the man always gave maximum effort till the very end. Not entirely convinced Christensen did though.

Either way it's very simple, Tuchel still had Rüdiger playing at a high enough level and Potter doesn't.