Chelsea Transfers

[Mário César 975]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

It essentially guarantees that next season won't be successful. All we are hoping for right now is for something better than last season, for some improvement, but dismantling the squad while losing all key players at once, has really never worked. The movement towards younger players all at once has also never worked. Nothing we are doing has ever worked... at least not short-term. If you have trust in the leadership, that the actions are all part of a grand plan, then more power to you.

You keep saying this or that player isn't good enough. The facts are that they are not leaving Chelsea for smaller teams in smaller leagues. They will competing at the same level next season. In better and more established teams too! Good enough at this level is VERY relative. It's all competition and looking for the smallest competitive advantages. How fleshy a player is, or how you like his turns and "vision" means nothing if the player does not provide a competitive advantage. I've seen fantastic skilled players who never done anything meaningful in football, at least not at this level.

It will always be an unknown and will always depend on the quality of Poch, along with the type of hires.

The truth is that a good base of the starting team will remain: Kepa, Reece, Thiago, Fofana, Chilwell, Enzo and Sterling.

It depends a lot on the players that are hired. 

About the fact that some of the players will go to better teams, it's a bit subjective, as Arsenal will buy Havertz for the talent he showed at Leverkusen and for the potential and not for what he showed at Chelsea.

About Mount, United is tired of squandering money on average players and Mount has a lot of hype, a bit like Rice, for example. 

The 2021 UCL campaign overvalued the players, hence they were sold at this price and that's the fact that they still have plenty of market, along with their age, of course.  

If you analyze it coldly, Chelsea doesn't pass 80 points with this set of players. The last time was in 16/17 and there we had players of a much higher level. The most we got was 74 last year and it was very much at the expense of our defense.

The 2012 team won a UCL and yet we had to change many pieces to win a league again, which happened in 2015.

As these are competitions with knockout stages, the context is different and there is no shortage of teams with lower individual quality going further.

It was a remarkable job by Tuchel, who enhanced the team as I don't think any coach could ever do. 

To be more consistent in the league, we need another type of players, in my opinion.

[Mário César 975]

30 minutes ago, King Kante said:

I agree we are playing with fire this off-season. People talk about Kai and Mount like they will never be as good as KdB or Salah. The thing is, KdB wasn't much older when we sold him than Kai/Mount are now. For me footballers always really show what they're going to be in the 22-26 bracket, unless they're super elite like Mbappe, Rooney, Messi, C.Ronaldo, Haaland etc, where they started doing it from a very young age, simply because they were elite talents. Personally, for me celebrating the selling Kai and Mount is both highly dangerous and ill thoughtout as these players aren't at their peak yet. I also remember a lot of people for instance celebrating the £18m we pulled in for KdB at the time due to him not being a team player and a prima Donna.

Additionally, people celebrate players like Costa and Drogba but forget that they were both 26+ when they rocked up here. Both of them had to play a lot of football elsewhere in the early 20's for 'lower' teams before they made it. 

This said, I do equally understand the economics of football. Both Kai and Mount have few years on there contracts and, even waiting a year, could be disastrous for their value. So, I can see why the club may want to sell, even if I don't understand why people who are just fans/supporters are happy with it - if you consider the above. 

This said. I am worried about next season. For sure, getting rid of the likes of Ziyech, KK and Mendy for reasonable fees won't hurt that much because there age means we know what they are and that they're only likely to decline from here on in. However, the purchases raise massive concerns with me. Let's look at these in the cold light of day: 

Jackson - 6 months ago was going to Bournemouth and people didn't have a clue who he was. Hits a purple patch towards the end of a La Liga season and people now think he walks into the PL as a proven goalscorer or at least can 'do a job'. For me this is a very highly speculative transfer. 

Caicedo - stats show he is a very good ball winner. However, as soon as Potter left, DZ decided to play him in multiple positions to cover holes. For sure, people can argue that he is so good he can play any position, but another argument is that he cannot nail down his favoured position. I mean, seriously, whenever have you seen a player being switched around like that in there early 20's to fill holes in a 6th placed team? The answer is normally a McTominary/Flecther/Cleverly ( SAF/Man U tbf have always had a great eye for finding roles for grafters.)

For me, as DZ was/is the better tactian, when compared to Potter, this leaves massive question marks for me as whilst some people see Kante, I can also see Ramires. His age is the only reason why I cannot place him yet as he still needs a lot more football in his legs. 

As for the overall balance of the squad, it looks like we're aiming for a U23 side hoping that they'll grow together. This for me is a crap shoot in that if it comes off, it is jackpot. However, we also run the real risk we leave ourselves a lot poorer, even though we convinced ourselves before we threw the dice that things couldn't get worse. 

We screwed up by signing so many players in the winter, especially spending so much money on Mudryk and Madueke. 

It was a mistake.

Neither of them are ready. 

Jackson is only good as a second option. 

As a starter, we need someone a little better.

About the purchases, Nkunku makes me a little optimistic, as well as Caicedo, if he is confirmed. 

I don't think the problem is what we are doing now, but what was done last year, especially in January. 

[NikkiCFC 7,942]

Lucas Hernandez to PSG. They already have Mendes. 

[robsblubot 3,502]

37 minutes ago, Mário César said:

The truth is that a good base of the starting team will remain: Kepa, Reece, Thiago, Fofana, Chilwell, Enzo and Sterling.

It depends a lot on the players that are hired.

That's not a good base 😅 as it includes 2 unknowns (Sterling and Fofana for diff reasons), a retiring player, and one of the worst goalies I've seen play the game. Too small a list to be a good base too.

Good teams are made from repetition and time, and our team will have neither coming next season. It will be a bunch of players getting to know each other.

Right and why do you think the players we sign will be better than the ones we let go? Have they been better thus far? the one player who seems to be good enough is Enzo.

I think we've made our points regarding Kai and Mount. I just think that facts are facts: they both are going to top clubs earning high wages as the top player they are. The rest is opinions, which go into personal preferences.

United is just pulling the oldest trick in the book during a negotiation.

Edited June 27, 2023 by robsblubot

[Tomo 21,733]

11 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

That's not a good base 😅 as it includes 2 unknowns (Sterling and Fofana for diff reasons), a retiring player, and one of the worst goalies I've seen play the game. Too small a list to be a good base too.

Good teams are made from repetition and time, and our team will have neither coming next season. It will be a bunch of players getting to know each other.

Right and why do you think the players we sign will be better than the ones we let go? Have they been better thus far? the one player who seems to be good enough is Enzo.

I think we've made our points regarding Kai and Mount. I just think that facts are facts: they both are going to top clubs earning high wages as the top player they are. The rest is opinions, which go into personal preferences.

United is just pulling the oldest trick in the book during a negotiation.

I think it's fair to say Nkunku is at the very least on a level with those players.

[Pizy 18,368]

Having a coach in well before preseason, telling the club which players he doesn’t want, telling them which players he’d like to sign, and then having a full preseason to drill the players in his idea should automatically mean we’re better than last season. Remember how calamitous our preseason was last year? The signs were there right away when we got smoked by Arse in America.

By all accounts from his Spuds and Southampton days he has been described as the sort of coach who demands superhuman fitness and discipline from his players. He’s got a clear idea and plan. This is what we were missing completely under Potter who seemed in WAY over his head and was battling from minute 1 to try to earn the respect of players who most of which had never heard of him.

Depending on who we buy I’ll be super confident that we’ll be in the mix for top 4.

[Mário César 975]

22 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

That's not a good base 😅 as it includes 2 unknowns (Sterling and Fofana for diff reasons), a retiring player, and one of the worst goalies I've seen play the game.

Right and why do you think the players we sign will be better than the ones we let go? Have they been better thus far? the one player who seems to be good enough is Enzo.

I think we've made our points regarding Kai and Mount. I just think that facts are facts: they both are going to top clubs earning high wages as the top player they are. The rest is opinions, which go into personal preferences.

United is just pulling the oldest trick in the book during a negotiation.

Sterling is pretty decent to fight for top4. My problem is who accompanies him.

It's fair to say that Nkunku comes with a lot of credit from Germany and that both Fofana and Badiashile have the potential to be a good duo, just as Lewill comes from a team that had a good season last year. 

Has Havertz been top notch? We are not selling Hazard. We are selling a player labeled as a flop.

He is supposed to be a generational talent and his passing has fallen quite far short.

If he was a top performer, he would be sold for a lot more money.

There are even Arsenal people with doubts about his signing, and United fans praise our ability to sell players who have fallen behind at the club. Just take a look to see what everyone thinks about Mount and Havertz.

Regarding Kepa I agree, but I believe another goalkeeper will come.

Man City in 2018 bought a lot of players in one window and they were champions right away. 

Jorginho was having a first season àem and his legs are gone. You could see that in the first part of last season. 

For me, it will depend on the signings and a good pre-season.

[King Kante 1,474]

4 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I think it's fair to say Nkunku is at the very least on a level with those players.

People said the same sort of thing about Sancho and Werner. It is one thing to be a forward who can work in the Bundesliga with the high lines they play over there and translate that to the low block/psycalitily you find in the PL. 

For me, I honestly cannot reasonably judge a Bundesliga forward these days unless they're an absolute elite freak like Haaland. For me, the Nkunku transfer looks as well timed; we signed him early into a good season/just off the back of his best season when still young.

However, when we look at players like Sancho and Werner in the PL vs. Bundesliga or as a reverse Haller, there are absolutely no guarantees a elite forward in Germany will be able to do it in the PL. 

At this moment in time, I am in the wait and see position with Nkunku. For sure, he has some nice assets, but the question really is how will this translate to the realities of the PL, week in, week out?

Let's not also forget he also has 10 appearance for France and hasn't scored a goal for them yet; albeit, it appears he has mainly be used bit part (approx 400-500 mins) and I haven't personally seen him play international football. 

[Vesper 28,774]

5 hours ago, TheHulk said:

 

surely that gets it done

and it's right where I said it should end up

[Vesper 28,774]

3 minutes ago, Mário César said:

his passing has fallen quite far short

this!

shit passing

[Mário César 975]

Then there are several issues.

Havertz doesn't want to renew and wants to leave, Kova wants to leave, Mount won't renew.

Lukaku also wants to leave, as does Pulisic.

Kanté missed most of the season due to injury and in recent years has been injured all the time.

Ziyech also wants to leave.

What are you supposed to do? Keep them?

Above all, we want players who want to stay at the club and want to play for Chelsea. 

That is the main thing of all, regardless of the quality of the player.

If he doesn't want to be at Chelsea, the best thing is to really leave.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Mário César

[Tomo 21,733]

5 minutes ago, King Kante said:

People said the same sort of thing about Sancho and Werner. It is one thing to be a forward who can work in the Bundesliga with the high lines they play over there and translate that to the low block/psycalitily you find in the PL. 

For me, I honestly cannot reasonably judge a Bundesliga forward these days unless they're an absolute elite freak like Haaland. For me, the Nkunku transfer looks as well timed; we signed him early into a good season/just off the back of his best season when still young.

However, when we look at players like Sancho and Werner in the PL vs. Bundesliga or as a reverse Haller, there are absolutely no guarantees a elite forward in Germany will be able to do it in the PL. 

At this moment in time, I am in the wait and see position with Nkunku. For sure, he has some nice assets, but the question really is how will this translate to the realities of the PL, week in, week out?

Let's not also forget he also has 10 appearance for France and hasn't scored a goal for them yet; albeit, it appears he has mainly be used bit part (approx 400-500 mins) and I haven't personally seen him play international football. 

It doesn't but playing in the PL also has no guarantees as we found have found out multiple times in the last couple of years alone.

What excites me about Nkunku is not only his skillset but his big game record, he has an excellent record vs Bayern, PSG and City and not only that has turned up in their last two Cup finals.

At this point is he any more of a gamble than gambling on Havertz gaining true consistency in this league at the 4th time of asking? Or Mount's bad form being that instead of Dele Alli/Oscar esque early decline? And I say this as someone who would have liked to have seen them under Pochettino (who will be the best manager we've had in a long time in terms of allowing young or young ish players to build momentum).

[robsblubot 3,502]

27 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I think it's fair to say Nkunku is at the very least on a level with those players.

Maybe. It does look like he has the tools, but we need to see him in the PL. I think Budesliga to PL can be a pretty big step.

13 minutes ago, Mário César said:

Sterling is pretty decent to fight for top4. My problem is who accompanies him.

It's fair to say that Nkunku comes with a lot of credit from Germany and that both Fofana and Badiashile have the potential to be a good duo, just as Lewill comes from a team that had a good season last year. 

Has Havertz been top notch? We are not selling Hazard. We are selling a player labeled as a flop.

He is supposed to be a generational talent and his passing has fallen quite far short.

If he was a top performer, he would be sold for a lot more money.

There are even Arsenal people with doubts about his signing, and United fans praise our ability to sell players who have fallen behind at the club. Just take a look to see what everyone thinks about Mount and Havertz.

Regarding Kepa I agree, but I believe another goalkeeper will come.

Man City in 2018 bought a lot of players in one window and they were champions right away. 

Jorginho was having a first season àem and his legs are gone. You could see that in the first part of last season. 

For me, it will depend on the signings and a good pre-season.

Once again, we have to agree to disagree on Mount and Kai. Performing or not can vary within a season or within weeks as can form. The same mess that affected new players also affected the established players all the same. It's a team sport after all. Sterling has not done remotely close to what Mount has done, or even Pulisic. Can he? probably, but he has not.

There are variables as current wages, contract length, managers, how much the players are pushing for the move. What is not variable is their destinations and the wages being offered, and the fact that they are sough after. Football economics at this level can be very competitive and auction-like.

[Mário César 975]

15 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Once again, we have to agree to disagree on Mount and Kai. Performing or not can vary within a season or within weeks as can form. The same mess that affected new players also affected the established players all the same. It's a team sport after all. Sterling has not done remotely close to what Mount has done, or even Pulisic. Can he? probably, but he has not.

There are variables as current wages, contract length, managers, how much the players are pushing for the move. What is not variable is their destinations and the wages being offered, and the fact that they are sough after. Football economics at this level can be very competitive and auction-like.

Havertz had a bad first season and showed only a few good things in the second season and nothing more.

Very little for what he cost.

So much so that before the 2021 UCL final he was labeled a flop. 

Well, it was with this set of players that we didn't even reach 80 points in two seasons in a row. 

He doesn't have enough regularity to fight for a Premier, but it will all depend on who the management will hire.

Look at the performance of Salah, Mané, KDB, Aguero, Mahrez, Bernardo, etc....

That's the kind of performance we need. 

Mount and Havertz can't consistently be as good as those. 

[robsblubot 3,502]

5 minutes ago, Mário César said:

Havertz had a bad first season and showed only a few good things in the second season and nothing more.

Very little for what he cost.

So much so that before the 2021 UCL final he was labeled a flop. 

Well, it was with this set of players that we didn't even reach 80 points in two seasons in a row. 

He doesn't have enough regularity to fight for a Premier, but it will all depend on who the management will hire.

Look at the performance of Salah, Mané, KDB, Aguero, Mahrez, Bernardo, etc....

That's the kind of performance we need. 

Mount and Havertz can't consistently be as good as those. 

I think Kai showed A LOT during that CL run. For me, Kante, Mount, and Kai were amongst the better players in that team and they beat the strongest opposition to prove. I'd say that Kai became a bargain after the CL win, but that's me.

I don't disagree that their form has been subpar, but there is no guarantee that a. they will not regain and even improve as players in the future (they are fairly young) and b. that whoever arrives will do better. We keep giving the new signings excuses due to the situation at the club, but don't do the same for the established players. It's exactly the same for them... perhaps even worse as they may have seen the club much better run at some point.

It's easy to declare that one would, should, must do better, but another thing entirely is that coming to fruition. I remain cautious with the new signings especially when being done by this, so far, clueless leadership.

[Thor 2,392]

I know a lot here just want to go back to winning and being a powerhouse - but in all honesty, I just want to feel excited about our team again. 

We are heading in the right direction. Getting rid of the deadwood, and giving young players a go at building on something. We had that a few seasons ago during Lampard's first stint where he actually gave players a go, and even after he left, it was exciting seeing the guys grow into their skills and role. 

We've got a nice collection of players. I'm honestly excited to see Jackson and Nkunku up front. Want to see Mudryk under Poch and with time to get accustomed. Maduake with a great tactical coach like Poch who has done wonders with wingers and front men. 

I think we have a great collection of talented and young defenders. Enzo is already a gem, and excited to see what happens with Poch and any other midfielders we bring in. Also - really keen on seeing Reece James and his evolution. 

Last thing - it seems to have gone under the radar - but Gusto could be a revelation and was a brilliant signing. I feel like he is one that will be able to play RB or RW too. Extremely talented. 

 

Exciting, exciting squad, and we still have more to come. 

[Blue Armour 4,278]

6 hours ago, Mário César said:

I am reading some opinions that selling so many players at once is a mistake and will have consequences, just as you had buying too many players at once.

What is your opinion?

The truth is that many of them are not needed, but still....

Team chemistry is going to be the big question mark.

Granted we barely saw anything last season, but we could be in for another rocky start to the season depending on how well pre-season goes.

So many fresh timers starting together for the first time.

[Blue Armour 4,278]

6 hours ago, Vegetable said:

One thing is this (and every other really) board dynamics of people wanting all players out because they are annoyed with them, while objectively they are not Saul-level futile, but the true problem is what someone pointed out really well in Noni's thread - Does eg Mudryk and Madueke provide at least Pulisic's level of output? Meeeeh. Still everyone wants Puli out. We have no immediate replacements, not to mention upgrades to a lot of unwanted players. We are betting on Noni becoming better than Pulisic one day, but it creates a huge hole now. Depending on when and IF new players will step up, we may be seeing another relegation battle shitshow next season. Wings are especially concerning to me, but up front it's the same - Lukaku is dreadful, but is Broja getting out and punishing entire PL? Doubt it. Are people we are being linked with as Kante/Kova/Mount replacements are really right here and right now equal or better players? Plus, personally I don't trust our board a smallest bit in terms of choosing and actually landing the targets. People claiming Kante/Havertz/Mount/Kova or even KK to some extent are "shit" are letting their annoyance overshadow the reality imo.

I think the main thing that bothers me about Havertz/Mount/Kova departures is that we're still left with useless options like Gallagher, Sterling and Cucurella. 

The hope is that some of the new arrivals (Nkunku/Jackson) and a new CM, will relegate them to being squad options.