The Tuchel Thread

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

17 hours ago, Jase said:

Are our attackers really out of form or are they not playing well because there's suddenly a #9 to shoehorn in? 🤔

Was the argument last season not that we needed a number 9 to play with the likes of Werner particularly and also Mount/Havertz/Ziyech etc though? I remember on Werner especially it was always brought up that he played with a number 9 at Leipzig… I think it was actually a point you had made. 

The attackers are out of form/not productive enough though - all of them more or less.

Still not overly convinced that its quite panic stations yet but need to see something from these players v Malmo, Norwich, Southampton, Newcastle in the next 2 weeks. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, OneMoSalah said:

Was the argument last season not that we needed a number 9 to play with the likes of Werner particularly and also Mount/Havertz/Ziyech etc though? I remember on Werner especially it was always brought up that he played with a number 9 at Leipzig… I think it was actually a point you had made. 

I don't think I said we must buy a #9 to get the best out of Werner, Havertz, Mount etc..?

Werner is definitely not your typical #9 and he did thrive alongside one at Leipzig (guess one could say time is needed for him and Lukaku to make it work here) but I like the direction that we were heading under Tuchel last season when he was playing alongside Havertz upfront with both looking to have a good understanding of one another's game. Yes, the chance conversion wasn't there but at least the chemistry/cohesion/fluidity was there.

10 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

The attackers are out of form/not productive enough though - all of them more or less.

Still not overly convinced that its quite panic stations yet but need to see something from these players v Malmo, Norwich, Southampton, Newcastle in the next 2 weeks. 

I agree it's not panic stations yet but why did all the attackers suddenly go out of form? Was it just a coincidence or was it due to something more?

Giroud mentioned in a recent interview with The Athletic that Werner, despite his lack of goals, complements Havertz and Mount. So the question is can Havertz, Mount co-exist with an actual #9 - one who is more static and offers less movement than Werner? I suppose Mount can but there was a recent stat that pointed out Havertz has actually not made a single pass to Lukaku in the Premier League this season and it's also fair to wonder whether Havertz is actually a creator or more of a finisher? He has supposedly created only ONE big chance in the Premier League and that's just poor. 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

I like it that TT gives players the time and opportunity to prove themsevles or at least let them gather experience, I remember some here and even the media claiming our youth will not get a look in etc....hocus pocus is what it was. TT is also always honest. We are lucky to have TT.....just ask united fans.

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

13 minutes ago, Jase said:

I don't think I said we must buy a #9 to get the best out of Werner, Havertz, Mount etc..?

Werner is definitely not your typical #9 and he did thrive alongside one at Leipzig (guess one could say time is needed for him and Lukaku to make it work here) but I like the direction that we were heading under Tuchel last season when he was playing alongside Havertz upfront with both looking to have a good understanding of one another's game. Yes, the chance conversion wasn't there but at least the chemistry/cohesion/fluidity was there.

I agree it's not panic stations yet but why did all the attackers suddenly go out of form? Was it just a coincidence or was it due to something more?

Giroud mentioned in a recent interview with The Athletic that Werner, despite his lack of goals, complements Havertz and Mount. So the question is can Havertz, Mount co-exist with an actual #9 - one who is more static and offers less movement than Werner? I suppose Mount can but there was a recent stat that pointed out Havertz has actually not made a single pass to Lukaku in the Premier League this season and it's also fair to wonder whether Havertz is actually a creator or more of a finisher? He has supposedly created only ONE big chance in the Premier League and that's just poor. 

There was more fluidity with Havertz, Mount and Werner but also not enough goals as you’ve said which is why I think Tuchel and the club had to go and bring in a CF to improve this season. 

We didn’t see any signs in pre season that we would see an increase if proficiency in front of goal from Werner, Havertz, Mount or these other guys so the decision to buy a CF surely was one that was justified. I don’t think it would of mattered who it was say if it was Lewandowski, Haaland, Kane, Aguero or Lukaku, there would still be similar problems perhaps because who is the best 2 to play off our CF? 

To keep the fluidity we had, we probably would of had to go sign a more prolific number 10, second striker-esque player or maybe someone like Karim Benzema who is perhaps the only player who I think is capable of playing in that way and scoring a lot of goals. I don’t think there are many of this type of players about that could score 20+ a season and do everything else to the level we would expect.

We have to find a way to get them in and be effective with Rom because undoubtedly he will be our top scorer if he plays regularly. 

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

There was more fluidity with Havertz, Mount and Werner but also not enough goals as you’ve said which is why I think Tuchel and the club had to go and bring in a CF to improve this season. 

We didn’t see any signs in pre season that we would see an increase if proficiency in front of goal from Werner, Havertz, Mount or these other guys so the decision to buy a CF surely was one that was justified. I don’t think it would of mattered who it was say if it was Lewandowski, Haaland, Kane, Aguero or Lukaku, there would still be similar problems perhaps because who is the best 2 to play off our CF? 

To keep the fluidity we had, we probably would of had to go sign a more prolific number 10, second striker-esque player or maybe someone like Karim Benzema who is perhaps the only player who I think is capable of playing in that way and scoring a lot of goals. I don’t think there are many of this type of players about that could score 20+ a season and do everything else to the level we would expect.

We have to find a way to get them in and be effective with Rom because undoubtedly he will be our top scorer if he plays regularly. 

We created chances last season because we had the fluidity upfront with those players. Now with a #9, a reference point, everything becomes less fluid and the chances don't come as often as before anymore. Everything appears geared towards one player when it was never the case last season.

I might be wrong but out of the strikers available last summer, Kane might have suited us more since he's more a half 9, half 10 these days with his ability to drop deep, link up play and score goals but of course, that move was never gonna happen for obvious reasons. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

Chiesa 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

43 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Chiesa 

Good luck getting him out of Juve

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

47 minutes ago, Jase said:

We created chances last season because we had the fluidity upfront with those players. Now with a #9, a reference point, everything becomes less fluid and the chances don't come as often as before anymore. Everything appears geared towards one player when it was never the case last season.

I might be wrong but out of the strikers available last summer, Kane might have suited us more since he's more a half 9, half 10 these days with his ability to drop deep, link up play and score goals but of course, that move was never gonna happen for obvious reasons. 

But people have also argued he’s been less effective because he drops deep too often for England and for Spurs under Jose as opposed to being more of an actual number 9 and getting in the box also. 

Its tough but I think having Lukaku signed if gives us the options to play with a fixed 9. Or play with those 3 from last season but we still needed someone who is going to be able to score regularly and Lukaku will undoubtedly be the guy ahead of those others. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

Hasn’t scored in 4 games though. 

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

8 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Hasn’t scored in 4 games though. 

Aye thats clear and he could have got at least one or two in the last four games but the whole teams lack of goals is much more concerning than just Lukaku’s right now. But everyone is quick to highlight Lukaku only and not the others too. Maybe there is going to be more adjustments still, no doubt he’s a fixed 9 compared to what we had last season but even if he scored 15/20 league goals we need more from the others 100%. 

Frankly, between the CBs and WBs in our team, they have scored 50% (8 of 16) of our PL goals this season. Then in midfield and attack, Lukaku has got 3, Werner 1, Kante 1, Kovacic 1, Havertz 1 and Pulisic 1. 

Its good to have lots of scorers obviously but no point having 10, 11, 12 people with 2 or 3 goals over the course of a season and not having that 2 or 3 who get 10-15 goals minimum. Particularly if your looking to try and push for leagues and trophies. 

This is the issue TT has. He has to get Lukaku and the others scoring goals, making assists, creating chances etc. It was the same last season with Mason, Werner and Kai too, there was promising signs but also not enough goals. You don’t win games on chances created, its on goals scored. So something was always going to have to give. Be it Lukaku starting in one of their places or those getting more goals.

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

But Kai, Werner, and Mount offer a lot more than just goals though? When Lukaku isn’t scoring, what does he offer?

[Blue Armour 4,312]

Wonder whether Tuchel will expirement a little in one of the upcoming fixtures..like say drop the back 5 and maybe play Havertz-Mount-Werner behind Lukaku.

Doubt it though..since our play from the back and beating the opposition press is built on our back 5 system.

[ZAPHOD2319 4,519]

 

[Jase 43,479]

22 hours ago, ZAPHOD2319 said:

 

Is this Simon Phillips trying to spread his own agenda?

Didn't Tuchel mention or weren't there actual reliable articles that when Tuchel came, he decided immediately on using the back 3 system before taking charge of the Wolves game? I also don't see how Tuchel has much time to work on different systems when we have to play every 3 days or so with the focus on being rest, recovery and preparation for the next game etc. 

[ZAPHOD2319 4,519]

46 minutes ago, Jase said:

Is this Simon Phillips trying to spread his own agenda?

Didn't Tuchel mention or weren't there actual reliable articles that when Tuchel came, he decided immediately on using the back 3 system before taking charge of the Wolves game? I also don't see how Tuchel has much time to work on different systems when we have to play every 3 days or so with the focus on being rest, recovery and preparation for the next game etc. 

He said directly that he wanted Azpi on the pitch and he and his staff decided the best way forward was with three at the back on the plane ride to Chelsea.

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

23 hours ago, Jase said:

Is this Simon Phillips trying to spread his own agenda?

Didn't Tuchel mention or weren't there actual reliable articles that when Tuchel came, he decided immediately on using the back 3 system before taking charge of the Wolves game? I also don't see how Tuchel has much time to work on different systems when we have to play every 3 days or so with the focus on being rest, recovery and preparation for the next game etc. 

That Simon Phillips guy is nothing but a moron, take what he says with a pinch of salt. Cant believe anyone sees his information as even remotely reliable enough to quote it on Twitter. Even if it is a random account. 

If TT wanted to play a back 4 he would of done it by now, he’s not the sort of person to go against his own tactical approach or beliefs if he thinks it’s best/will maximise the team’s performance.

[ZAPHOD2319 4,519]

 

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, ZAPHOD2319 said:

 

bUt We MuSt ChAnGe FoRmAtIoN!