Jump to content
Join Talk Chelsea and join in with the discussions! Click Here

The Tuchel Thread


 Share
Followers 2

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chippy said:

Apologies for not putting my point over well enough.

I was thinking about the hiring of any young, inexperienced manager at a top club, not just Frank at Chelsea.

If a club is going hire such a manager, then, as I said before, they have to give that manager time to learn from their mistakes and failures and see if they can turn things around. If not, then no top club should ever hire young managers.

We didn't hire Lampard because he's a "young, inexperienced" manager. We hired him because he's a Chelsea legend. That's the matter of it.

We could have chosen better rookie managers like Eddie Howe instead of Lampard because at least Howe has shown he can play attacking football and has more coaching years under his belt. There was ZERO major reasons to pick Lampard at the time. Zero. He lost the Championship play-off final, took Derby from 6th to 6th and only had one season under his belt.

You can point to "he has coached the youths there to take them to the play-off final" but it's one season. Could be a one season wonder. A fluke. And even people forgot Derby got that 6th place by the skins of their teeth.

No other top club would touch Lampard then and even now. We took him because of he is a legend here. That's all. Same can be said with Arteta (to an extent) and Ole.

Edited by Mana
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 969
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Took us from 10th to finishing 4th. This has to be credited. Yes, we lost the final game but he gave us the chance to fight for the top 4 after that Lampard fiasco. And we did it. With luck. Again. Ju

A manager taking responsibility? Preposterous!

Unless we completely lose the plot and results go south in these last few weeks of the season, sacking Tuchel just because we don't get Top 4 would be a fucking stupid decision from the board...again.

Posted Images

8 hours ago, chippy said:

Apologies for not putting my point over well enough.

I was thinking about the hiring of any young, inexperienced manager at a top club, not just Frank at Chelsea.

If a club is going hire such a manager, then, as I said before, they have to give that manager time to learn from their mistakes and failures and see if they can turn things around. If not, then no top club should ever hire young managers.

We hired Lampard because it was a marriage of convenience. The fans were not happy after the whole thing with Sarri and the club were under a transfer ban and had to rely on the academy players to boost the squad. So, what better way to appease the fans by bringing back a club legend in Lampard as well as the former academy coach in Jody Morris? 

Every manager makes mistakes, inexperienced or experienced. The biggest questions are how quickly they learn from them and can they fix them. In the 18 months that he was here, Lampard never showed that he was a quick learner and capable of solving those mistakes. In less than 4 months, Tuchel has been able to do that. He has been able to turn those weaknesses we saw under Lampard into strengths. And that is without a pre-season or much training time between matches considering we've been playing every 3-4 days.

There's a reason why the big clubs have never hired a club legend or former player, one who is inexperienced as a manager as their manager until very recently. We know what happened with Lampard. Juventus took a gamble with Pirlo and it looks like they might sack him at the end of the season. Arsenal hired Arteta, who is not even a legend there, and they are getting worse but he could well stay on because of their lack of ambition. Not everyone will turn out to be a Guardiola. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mana said:

We could have chosen better rookie managers like Eddie Howe instead of Lampard because at least Howe has shown he can play attacking football and has more coaching years under his belt. There was ZERO major reasons to pick Lampard at the time. Zero. He lost the Championship play-off final, took Derby from 6th to 6th and only had one season under his belt.

You can point to "he has coached the youths there to take them to the play-off final" but it's one season. Could be a one season wonder. A fluke. And even people forgot Derby got that 6th place by the skins of their teeth.

No other top club would touch Lampard then and even now. We took him because of he is a legend here. That's all. Same can be said with Arteta (to an extent) and Ole.

Am surprised you have chosen to mention Eddie Howe (again) considering what happened with him at Bournemouth. Was Howe's attacking football really that great? Because for whatever good football they played, they always conceded A LOT of goals and were always in the bottom 5 for the most goals conceded in each Premier League season. Howe and Bournemouth only turned into some sort of genius and peak AC Milan side whenever they played us.

Also, it's funny how you keep on downplaying what Lampard did at Derby, considering they went into a freefall after his regime and only just survived relegation by the skin of their teeth at the weekend (could still go down due to issues off the pitch). One season or not, Lampard, at the very least, maintained a 6th place finish and got them into the play-off final. Sure, it did not work out for him and Derby in the final but he kept them up there at least.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Jas said:

Also, it's funny how you keep on downplaying what Lampard did at Derby, considering they went into a freefall

He had one of the best midfielders in the country with Mount and he is having a center bac who is now with AC Milan that might have helped.

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Jap Si. said:

He had one of the best midfielders in the country with Mount and he is having a center bac who is now with AC Milan that might have helped.

They weren't that at that point of time and it's not like Phillip Cocu didn't have the chance to bring in his own players.

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Jas said:

They weren't that at that point of time and it's not like Phillip Cocu didn't have the chance to bring in his own players.

Still far superior to any player in league at time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jap Si. said:

Still far superior to any player in league at time.

LOL

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 12 horas, Mana dijo:

We didn't hire Lampard because he's a "young, inexperienced" manager. We hired him because he's a Chelsea legend. That's the matter of it.

We could have chosen better rookie managers like Eddie Howe instead of Lampard because at least Howe has shown he can play attacking football and has more coaching years under his belt. There was ZERO major reasons to pick Lampard at the time. Zero. He lost the Championship play-off final, took Derby from 6th to 6th and only had one season under his belt.

You can point to "he has coached the youths there to take them to the play-off final" but it's one season. Could be a one season wonder. A fluke. And even people forgot Derby got that 6th place by the skins of their teeth.

No other top club would touch Lampard then and even now. We took him because of he is a legend here. That's all. Same can be said with Arteta (to an extent) and Ole.

Tbf Eddie Howe is one of the most overrated British managers out there as well. All this talk of attacking football, Bournemouth were strictly a counter attacking team when they were at their most effective in the PL and still conceded a fuck tonne of goals. Not to mention the money he spent at Bournemouth and they never improved one bit. 

I agree with the rest of the points though although Derbys fall under Cocu and Rooney now maybe highlights Lampard did a better job there than we give him credit for. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Jas said:

Am surprised you have chosen to mention Eddie Howe (again) considering what happened with him at Bournemouth. Was Howe's attacking football really that great? Because for whatever good football they played, they always conceded A LOT of goals and were always in the bottom 5 for the most goals conceded in each Premier League season. Howe and Bournemouth only turned into some sort of genius and peak AC Milan side whenever they played us.

Also, it's funny how you keep on downplaying what Lampard did at Derby, considering they went into a freefall after his regime and only just survived relegation by the skin of their teeth at the weekend (could still go down due to issues off the pitch). One season or not, Lampard, at the very least, maintained a 6th place finish and got them into the play-off final. Sure, it did not work out for him and Derby in the final but he kept them up there at least.

Howe had a complete downfall but that's only if you looked at it at face value. That Bournemouth squad has overachieved massively. Most of their squad was playing League 1 football not too long ago. His star signings during the PL were the injury-prove Jack Wilshere on a free and Ake (who then moved to City later). Mings that has been crucial back in their defence was only on loan to them. 

But what I do think Howe made a huge mistake though, is that one summer spending £80m on players and ended up 14th. Spent it like a little boy in a candy shop and had no clue what to do then. It's a shame he didn't have any help.

Say what you want about me downplaying Lampard, but you are also downplaying what Howe achieved at Bournemouth which was 100x better than what Lampard EVER did.

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

Tbf Eddie Howe is one of the most overrated British managers out there as well. All this talk of attacking football, Bournemouth were strictly a counter attacking team when they were at their most effective in the PL and still conceded a fuck tonne of goals. Not to mention the money he spent at Bournemouth and they never improved one bit. 

I agree with the rest of the points though although Derbys fall under Cocu and Rooney now maybe highlights Lampard did a better job there than we give him credit for. 

He is overrated and I get that but that's not the point I was trying to make. If Chelsea chose Howe, at LEAST there would be some sense to why they picked him. Yes, Howe's tenure came to a miserable end but look at what Howe achieved in Bournemouth, you cannot downplay that. What has Lampard achieved that is so better than Howe?

Edited by Mana
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Mana said:

Howe had a complete downfall but that's only if you looked at it at face value. That Bournemouth squad has overachieved massively. Most of their squad was playing League 1 football not too long ago. His star signings during the PL were the injury-prove Jack Wilshere on a free and Ake (who then moved to City later). Mings that has been crucial back in their defence was only on loan to them. 

But what I do think Howe made a huge mistake though, is that one summer spending £80m on players and ended up 14th. Spent it like a little boy in a candy shop and had no clue what to do then. It's a shame he didn't have any help.

Say what you want about me downplaying Lampard, but you are also downplaying what Howe achieved at Bournemouth which was 100x better than what Lampard EVER did.

He is overrated and I get that but that's not the point I was trying to make. If Chelsea chose Howe, at LEAST there would be some sense to why they picked him. Yes, Howe's tenure came to a miserable end but look at what Howe achieved in Bournemouth, you cannot downplay that. What has Lampard achieved that is so better than Howe?

The summer of 2019 was a unique situation. We were losing the heartbeat of our attacking play and were not allowed to replace him.

The title and CL (bar a fluke of all flukes in the latter case) was out of the question that summer which immediately put the emphasis on rebuilding the squad, we needed a manager who would put the club before his CV and preferably knew the academy players and their characteristics well and Lampard and Jody fitted the bill (case in point when Jody told Frank that Lamptey would be able to handle coming on at The Emirates).

Yes as it turned out Lampard wasn't equipped tactically to enjoy the full fruits of his labour and yes looking back there's an argument for saying we maybe should have been ruthless last summer (although then we'd have likely been stuck with the overrated Pochettino over Tuchel) but the appointment at the time was the right decision.

Edited by Tomo
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Mana said:

Howe had a complete downfall but that's only if you looked at it at face value. That Bournemouth squad has overachieved massively. Most of their squad was playing League 1 football not too long ago. His star signings during the PL were the injury-prove Jack Wilshere on a free and Ake (who then moved to City later). Mings that has been crucial back in their defence was only on loan to them. 

But what I do think Howe made a huge mistake though, is that one summer spending £80m on players and ended up 14th. Spent it like a little boy in a candy shop and had no clue what to do then. It's a shame he didn't have any help.

Howe did not have any help? He was basically the Sir Alex Ferguson, the Arsene Wenger of Bournemouth because of what he achieved with them. He made the calls on the signings and a lot of them were not great. That's on him.

23 minutes ago, Mana said:

Say what you want about me downplaying Lampard, but you are also downplaying what Howe achieved at Bournemouth which was 100x better than what Lampard EVER did.

Did I downplay what Howe achieved at Bournemouth? All I basically questioned is his playing style. His attacking football is a myth and there's no point in playing nice attacking football if the team are conceding goals at an alarming rate. Bournemouth conceded at least 60 goals in each of their Premier League season. He was able to spend more than the likes of Sean Dyche and only managed a Top 10 finish once. And not to mention, Dyche even got Burnley finish in one of the Europa League places not too long ago.

And no one said what Lampard did at Derby is better than what Howe did at Bournemouth. The point was Lampard at least maintained the same finish as his predecessor at Derby, considering they went into freefall after he left. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Yes Lampard wasn't equipped tactically to enjoy the fruits of his labour and yes looking back there's an argument for saying we maybe should have been ruthless last summer (although then we'd have likely been stuck with the overrated Pochettino over Tuchel) but the appointment at the time was the right decision.

Sacking Lampard last summer would have been harsh, I think, and had we done so, the signings might have turned out to be different signings. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Tomo said:

The summer of 2019 was a unique situation. We were losing the heartbeat of our attacking play and were not allowed to replace him.

The title and CL (bar a fluke of all flukes in the latter case) was out of the question that summer which immediately put the emphasis on rebuilding the squad, we needed a manager who would put the club before his CV and preferably knew the academy players and their characteristics well and Lampard and Jody fitted the bill (case in point when Jody told Frank that Lamptey would be able to handle coming on at The Emirates).

Yes Lampard wasn't equipped tactically to enjoy the fruits of his labour and yes looking back there's an argument for saying we maybe should have been ruthless last summer (although then we'd have likely been stuck with the overrated Pochettino over Tuchel) but the appointment at the time was the right decision.

Really? We needed a manager who would put the club before his CV? Let me remind you we hired Benitez one time who disliked our club, but managed us professionally and got us our first Europa League.

For Jody - I cannot argue with you on that. He knows the academy players. Even if we appointed Jody himself, while I still think would have been a bad idea - at least he has strong knowledge of our academy players and actually has coaching experience. Adding Lampard to the mix didn't make sense (especially when HE'S the head coach and not Jody), when he just done one year of managing a club - and jumping him on to something that was too big for him.

Edited by Mana
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Jas said:

Howe did not have any help? He was basically the Sir Alex Ferguson, the Arsene Wenger of Bournemouth because of what he achieved with them. He made the calls on the signings and a lot of them were not great. That's on him.

Yes I'm aware of that. But at least Sir Alex asked for help. Howe didn't. So I agree that was a major mistake on his part.

Quote

Did I downplay what Howe achieved at Bournemouth? All I basically questioned is his playing style. His attacking football is a myth and there's no point in playing nice attacking football if the team are conceding goals at an alarming rate. Bournemouth conceded at least 60 goals in each of their Premier League season. He was able to spend more than the likes of Sean Dyche and only managed a Top 10 finish once. And not to mention, Dyche even got Burnley finish in one of the Europa League places not too long ago.

And no one said what Lampard did at Derby is better than what Howe did at Bournemouth. The point was Lampard at least maintained the same finish as his predecessor at Derby, considering they went into freefall after he left. 

I don't know why you are bringing up Bournemouth's conceded goal numbers...especially when Lampard's isn't any better. In fact, it is an extreme embarrassment to have a Chelsea squad that he had, to concede 54 goals in one season. That number is not even counting the CL, EFL and FA Cup goals we also conceded.

But anyway I'm tired of defending Howe you made your point months ago about him, the reason why I brought him up because I had to quickly think of another average young coach in the PL (that was available at the time).

Edited by Mana
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Mana said:

I don't know why you are bringing up Bournemouth's conceded goal numbers...especially when Lampard's isn't any better. In fact, it is an extreme embarrassment to have a Chelsea squad that he had, to concede 54 goals in one season. That number is not even counting the CL, EFL and FA Cup goals we also conceded.

I brought up their goals conceded stat because you mentioned Howe's attacking football style, which was non-existent. As I said, there's no point in a team playing pretty football if they keep conceding goals. It's also like with Lampard, who tried to make us play attacking football but had no care for defensive solidity. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mana said:

Really? We needed a manager who would put the club before his CV? Let me remind you we hired Benitez one time who disliked our club, but managed us professionally and got us our first Europa League.

For Jody - I cannot argue with you on that. He knows the academy players. Even if we appointed Jody himself, while I still think would have been a bad idea - at least he has strong knowledge of our academy players and actually has coaching experience. Adding Lampard to the mix didn't make sense (especially when HE'S the head coach and not Jody), when he just done one year of managing a club - and jumping him on to something that was too big for him.

Surely Benitez is the opposite of what you're trying to argue? The only reason he'd come here and put up with the hostility is the opportunity to win a trophy for his CV.

I agree with @Tomo, anybody that wasn't affiliated with the club would know the club's history with sacking managers and therefore would much more likely use experience over youth. The idea that Lampard had to blood the youth is a myth as there were still experienced, alternative options at the club.

Lampard currently is being made to look silly by Tuchel's success but I think over time, his tenure here will be looked at more favourably. 

Mount and James are almost certainly going to have massive careers here at Chelsea. Gilmour could well break through long term too. Even if Tammy and Tomori move on, they're now £60-70m worth of players between them now. And whatever the situation is with the new signings and whether they were his players (I think they all were, it was just that he wanted more to go with them. Mendy the exception as he said that was from Cech's recommendations), he has helped us bring some fantastic players to the club who will make a big impact here over the long term.

Replacing Lampard was completely the right decision, and the trigger could and should probably have been pulled weeks sooner. However, I think the club stand to benefit from Lampard's time here and the decision to take a chance on him actually worked out pretty well.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Surely Benitez is the opposite of what you're trying to argue? The only reason he'd come here and put up with the hostility is the opportunity to win a trophy for his CV.

I agree with @Tomo, anybody that wasn't affiliated with the club would know the club's history with sacking managers and therefore would much more likely use experience over youth. The idea that Lampard had to blood the youth is a myth as there were still experienced, alternative options at the club.

Lampard currently is being made to look silly by Tuchel's success but I think over time, his tenure here will be looked at more favourably. 

Mount and James are almost certainly going to have massive careers here at Chelsea. Gilmour could well break through long term too. Even if Tammy and Tomori move on, they're now £60-70m worth of players between them now. And whatever the situation is with the new signings and whether they were his players (I think they all were, it was just that he wanted more to go with them. Mendy the exception as he said that was from Cech's recommendations), he has helped us bring some fantastic players to the club who will make a big impact here over the long term.

Replacing Lampard was completely the right decision, and the trigger could and should probably have been pulled weeks sooner. However, I think the club stand to benefit from Lampard's time here and the decision to take a chance on him actually worked out pretty well.

It's basically what most agree upon, Frank in a management role absolutely strived and delivered it's on pitch he failed hard. I will certainly bemouth him for making our defense look like total garbage but will never forget and respect how he said no to frauds like Zaha, got us Top 4 and signed top class players in the summer.

Edited by R2D2
Link to post
Share on other sites

The sad aspect is that we still see fans bemoaning and clearly still unhappy we sacked Lamps, I mean come the fuck on what is your problem dude, he was clearly way way out of his depth. They would rather nullify this adventure under TT and rather stick with Lamps....just cuz he is a legend. If FL still were here we would have got utterly wrecked by many teams now.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Mana said:

We didn't hire Lampard because he's a "young, inexperienced" manager. We hired him because he's a Chelsea legend. That's the matter of it.

We could have chosen better rookie managers like Eddie Howe instead of Lampard because at least Howe has shown he can play attacking football and has more coaching years under his belt. There was ZERO major reasons to pick Lampard at the time. Zero. He lost the Championship play-off final, took Derby from 6th to 6th and only had one season under his belt.

You can point to "he has coached the youths there to take them to the play-off final" but it's one season. Could be a one season wonder. A fluke. And even people forgot Derby got that 6th place by the skins of their teeth.

No other top club would touch Lampard then and even now. We took him because of he is a legend here. That's all. Same can be said with Arteta (to an extent) and Ole.

I didn't say we hired Frank because was a young, inexperienced manager. 

Anyway, I made it clear with how I think now with my last sentence of a post a few days ago when I ended with saying Frank is history now, so onward and upwards with TT.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
hace 8 horas, Mana dijo:

Howe had a complete downfall but that's only if you looked at it at face value. That Bournemouth squad has overachieved massively. Most of their squad was playing League 1 football not too long ago. His star signings during the PL were the injury-prove Jack Wilshere on a free and Ake (who then moved to City later). Mings that has been crucial back in their defence was only on loan to them. 

But what I do think Howe made a huge mistake though, is that one summer spending £80m on players and ended up 14th. Spent it like a little boy in a candy shop and had no clue what to do then. It's a shame he didn't have any help.

Say what you want about me downplaying Lampard, but you are also downplaying what Howe achieved at Bournemouth which was 100x better than what Lampard EVER did.

He is overrated and I get that but that's not the point I was trying to make. If Chelsea chose Howe, at LEAST there would be some sense to why they picked him. Yes, Howe's tenure came to a miserable end but look at what Howe achieved in Bournemouth, you cannot downplay that. What has Lampard achieved that is so better than Howe?

He did do well with them to a degree that is true but the talks of him being in for the England job or being an acceptable option at other bigger clubs than Bournemouth were always premature. 

In the PL alone he had spent 25.5m on Jefferson Lerma, 20m on Ake, 19m on Solanke, 16m on Jordan Ibe, 15m on Philip Biling, 14m on Diego Rico, 12m on Benik Afobe etc in the seasons they were up and bar Ake, the rest of them flopped horribly. Also incorrect Mings was at Bournemouth signed from Ipswich and never kicked on there playing 20 matches in 4 seasons so left to go to Villa, so I cannot see how he could have been their defensive lynchpin. Wilshere and Harry Wilson were loanees over his spell there but again Wilshere played 27 games and didn’t put up any trees as his career was effectively over for a player who could play at any club in the top 10-14 spots in the PL if I am honest and well Harry Wilson no clue what he is up to now. His greatest achievement in terms of signings is probably Ryan Fraser who he signed from Aberdeen when Bournemouth were in League 1, Harry Arter, Matt Ritchie or Callum Wilson. Ake was really his only good PL signing tbh.

The pont is regardless taking Frank out of consideration completely, Eddie Howe would of been a poor choice for any top club also. Yes 2 promotions was good work from him and on shoe strings but when he got to the PL he also shown exactly the sort of ceiling he would hit as a manager and particularly shown an incredibly poor judge of player whilst he was managing Bournemouth in the PL as some of those signings for those prices listed above were abysmal.

If Lampard had managed for the same time period at a club like Derby then it would be a different story as there would be more to judge him on. I don’t necessarily think he had done remotely close to enough for a top end of the table PL job yet alone ours but in hindsight seeing how Derby are now the difference is night and day compared to them when he was there, I think hes maybe not done the worst job in the world in that season although obviously not perfect. He made a mistake leaving there too soon as did we hiring him in all fairness. He did get us to an FA cup final we should have been winning in all fairness but you don’t want to be remembered as a club for only getting to finals, you want to be remembered for winning them. And we were outgunned by fucking Mikel Arteta of all folk and look at the shambles of that team now. 

Edited by OneMoSalah
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...