The Tuchel Thread

[Strike 7,493]

11 hours ago, Jase said:

I'd say that Kovacic has improved on the creative aspect this season. Don't know the exact numbers and comparison with past season but he already has a few assists. Otherwise, I don't know if there's a genuine creative midfielder like Fabregas out there. 

In any case though, you implied that we are defensive with this back 3/5 system but when we attack, we attack with at least 5 players - the 3 attackers + the 2 WBs and that is not really different from a back 4 system. With a back 4, teams generally attack with at least 4 players - 3 attackers + 1 FB or 4 attackers etc. 

You also said that our midfielders are primarily defensive players more than creative players. Is that really different from say Liverpool, who is often lauded for their offensive plays? They mainly attack with 4-5 players and their front 3 provide the goals and the 2 FBs provide the assists. Excluding penalties, the goals amount from Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago, Keita ain't too different from Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante. The one big difference is that they have reliable goalscorers but we don't. 

Our xG is kinda in between those clubs. City's xG is 46.6, Liverpool's is 45.4, ours is 36.3 and Arsenal's 28.8. 

But again, this goes back to the point that we don't have reliable goalscorers and I guess creators. 

City often commits 6-7 players forward - they leave behind only the two CBs and the DM - which is risky because the press could be broken but we need to start taking the risk especially in the league. Even Liverpool play a similar overcommitting approach

The caveat here is we don't have the quality, unpredictability of Liverpool or City in attack. But if we were to try something it would be to add a creative player sacrificing one of the CBs.

 

[NikkiCFC 8,335]

42 points half season. Our best result since Conte winning season.

Conte in 2nd season and Sarri were very close to this at half season but won way less points in 2nd part of the season.

TT took job exactly at half season and got 38 points in 19 games. So this season a bit of improvement. On a track to win 84 points but I expect more because we lost so many stupid points and this should not happen again.

Still, cannot see us catching City they will finish 90+ points, we pretty much must win all games.

[Strike 7,493]

10 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

42 points half season. Our best result since Conte winning season.

Conte in 2nd season and Sarri were very close to this at half season but won way less points in 2nd part of the season.

TT took job exactly at half season and got 38 points in 19 games. So this season a bit of improvement. On a track to win 84 points but I expect more because we lost so many stupid points and this should not happen again.

Still, cannot see us catching City they will finish 90+ points, we pretty much must win all games.

I'd be good with a comfortable 2nd/3rd finish. We look competitive over knockout games so another European run looks possible. But we need to make more progress about addressing our issues in attack in the league.

[Jase 43,479]

15 hours ago, Strike said:

City often commits 6-7 players forward - they leave behind only the two CBs and the DM - which is risky because the press could be broken but we need to start taking the risk especially in the league. Even Liverpool play a similar overcommitting approach

The caveat here is we don't have the quality, unpredictability of Liverpool or City in attack. But if we were to try something it would be to add a creative player sacrificing one of the CBs.

But again, playing a back 4 is still no guarantee to success, is there? We have played a back 4 before under previous managers and did we necessarily score more goals, look more attacking etc? On top of that, our playing style doesn't seem to be as consistent as Man City's or even Liverpool's. 

[Superblue 6,372]

1 hour ago, Jase said:

But again, playing a back 4 is still no guarantee to success, is there? We have played a back 4 before under previous managers and did we necessarily score more goals, look more attacking etc? On top of that, our playing style doesn't seem to be as consistent as Man City's or even Liverpool's. 

Agreed. Bar Lukaku, the same group of players played a back 4 under Lampard and that wasn't working.

Our attackers are inconsistent, that's the biggest problem. Recent games have been a bit more difficult but usually we've created more than enough chances to score goals and win games and regularly we've been found wanting. Is having an extra inconsistent attacker on the pitch going to help things in attack at the risk of making our defensive shape significantly more vulnerable? 

We've already seen Alonso at full back, Rudiger in a back 2, Jorginho with less protection in midfield and none are a recipe for success moving forward.

 

[Laylabelle 9,536]

14 hours ago, Strike said:

I'd be good with a comfortable 2nd/3rd finish. We look competitive over knockout games so another European run looks possible. But we need to make more progress about addressing our issues in attack in the league.

Yeah same. Think 3rd more likely but never know. Didnt expect us to challenge for the title and less so when people were raving about us. I just didn't expect our play to be so frustrating. Especially like you say our attack or lack of it. Having such a impact and hopefully something we can fix? So don't keep throwing silly points anyway 

[NikkiCFC 8,335]

Focus on Cups. We can still win 4 of them. 2 will be decided in the next 2 months. In the league just secure top4. I dont see the difference between 2nd place with 90 points or 4th place with 60 points. No title, CL qualification.

 

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

Just now, NikkiCFC said:

I dont see the difference between 2nd place with 90 points or 4th place with 60 points. No title, CL qualification.

 

Are you genuine? 
 

The team that has 90 points has far less to build on for next season vs the team that finishes with 60 points. We finish 20 points off City again then all of our efforts building on the CL and last season will have meant nothing. 

[NikkiCFC 8,335]

2 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Are you genuine? 
 

The team that has 90 points has far less to build on for next season vs the team that finishes with 60 points. We finish 20 points off City again then all of our efforts building on the CL and last season will have meant nothing. 

We more than anyone should know that things dont work like that.

14/15 1st 87 points

15/16 10th 50 points

16/17 1st 93 points

17/18 5th 70 points

I never believed in closing the gap talk.

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

11 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Focus on Cups. We can still win 4 of them. 2 will be decided in the next 2 months. In the league just secure top4. I dont see the difference between 2nd place with 90 points or 4th place with 60 points. No title, CL qualification.

 

Sorry but what does that even mean? Obviously finishing 2nd isn’t an achievement in itself as ultimately you want to win trophies as a team but if people think we should just focus on domestic cups after a wee sticky spell - then what is the point?

And even then this run of results - remember City’s start last season? Worst one in however long yet they ended up strolling the league. Worst start to a season of Pep‘s career. Written off by everyone.

Not saying we will win the league but I honestly think we just need a run of 5/6/7 easy games without a lot of injuries/covid incidents.

12 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Are you genuine? 
 

The team that has 90 points has far less to build on for next season vs the team that finishes with 60 points. We finish 20 points off City again then all of our efforts building on the CL and last season will have meant nothing. 

100% agree, more points = more wins which ultimately means less losses. Which either means your doing things right or in Utds case last season, the standards poorer than expected. 

This year City and Liverpool are the standard but we are definitely closer this season even with this blip run.

[Superblue 6,372]

43 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Focus on Cups. We can still win 4 of them. 2 will be decided in the next 2 months. In the league just secure top4. I dont see the difference between 2nd place with 90 points or 4th place with 60 points. No title, CL qualification.

If we are in a comfortable top 3 position with a good gap between us and those chasing fourth spot then I'm happy for us to rotate in the league at stages to concentrate on europe and the FA Cup if we're still in both later in the season. But 4th place year on year is unsustainable, it will come back to bite us eventually. We need to be positioning ourselves to take over from City and their dominance in the league over the next couple of years.

[Janz 0]

We need a real number 10, Kante, jorginho, kovacic are all controlling midfielders, which make our play really predictable.

 

[Blue Armour 4,448]

4 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

The team that has 90 points has far less to build on for next season vs the team that finishes with 60 points. We finish 20 points off City again then all of our efforts building on the CL and last season will have meant nothing. 

I mean it already feels like nothing when you've lost so many key players for such large periods of the season.

This season feels like a write-off to me.

In light of that, 90 points or 60 points doesn't mean much IMO

Edited December 30, 2021 by Blue Armour

[Blue Armour 4,448]

Also, not sure where else to ask this, but why are we suffering so many hamstring injuries to players?

Feels like last season all over again, and back then some questioned Lampard's training methods.

 

[Clockwork 1,794]

Still has not build a balance team. Even last season, it was quite obvious we were lacking in the scoring department. With Lukaku we are lacking our ability to press and possession. Without him we are lacking a focal point and directness from our forward.

Injuries have been brutal, but we were very dependent on Reece and Cilly scoring and individual performances, in the long run that is not a recipe for success. 
 

Even with a full healthy squad we are still lacking the completeness. We are a freaking mess.

[Strike 7,493]

6 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Focus on Cups. We can still win 4 of them. 2 will be decided in the next 2 months. In the league just secure top4. I dont see the difference between 2nd place with 90 points or 4th place with 60 points. No title, CL qualification.

 

There is a big difference. We are looking to bridge that gap to the top 2. We wont get there overnight.

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, Blue Armour said:

I mean it already feels like nothing when you've lost so many key players for such large periods of the season.

This season feels like a write-off to me.

In light of that, 90 points or 60 points doesn't mean much IMO

Why do people think that? Even if we don't win the title this season, it's still important to show progression, to build the foundation for winning the title in the future. You don't just suddenly bridge that 20 or 30-point gap to City in one season and win the league. Nikki pointed out the points total from 2014/15 to 2017/18 but also ignored the context. The meltdown in 2015/16 was an inexplainable anomaly but we were able to win the title again in 2016/17 because we had been champions in 2014/15 with the same group of players. The recipe for success was still there. But since then, the landscape has changed. Yes, you could point to City suddenly overturning the gap in 2017/18 after finishing far behind in 2016/17 but Guardiola and even Klopp have come in and really raised the bar. They have produced crazy consistency over the last 4 seasons or so, consistently gaining more than 90 points etc with win after win after win, season in season out. That's something that not even our best team in the past or Wenger's Arsenal or Fergie's United managed to do. Apart from the one successful title defence, it's always been a boom or bust with us when it comes to the league. Since 2005/06, whenever we have won the league, we have always followed it up with a bad season. That is why unless we build towards having consistency in our results and performances like Liverpool and especially City, we aren't gonna able to catch them over 38 games. Relying on others to have a meltdown for us to have success is not sustainable. 

[Laylabelle 9,536]

All I want this season is to finish top 4 without having a flap around in the last few games having to rely on others dropping points while we don't. Bigger up way way way too early and now we're on the slide. Long as dont slide down out the top 4..its fine..ish

[NikkiCFC 8,335]

5 hours ago, Strike said:

There is a big difference. We are looking to bridge that gap to the top 2. We wont get there overnight.

 

3 hours ago, Jase said:

Why do people think that? Even if we don't win the title this season, it's still important to show progression, to build the foundation for winning the title in the future. You don't just suddenly bridge that 20 or 30-point gap to City in one season and win the league. Nikki pointed out the points total from 2014/15 to 2017/18 but also ignored the context. The meltdown in 2015/16 was an inexplainable anomaly but we were able to win the title again in 2016/17 because we had been champions in 2014/15 with the same group of players. The recipe for success was still there. But since then, the landscape has changed. Yes, you could point to City suddenly overturning the gap in 2017/18 after finishing far behind in 2016/17 but Guardiola and even Klopp have come in and really raised the bar. They have produced crazy consistency over the last 4 seasons or so, consistently gaining more than 90 points etc with win after win after win, season in season out. That's something that not even our best team in the past or Wenger's Arsenal or Fergie's United managed to do. Apart from the one successful title defence, it's always been a boom or bust with us when it comes to the league. Since 2005/06, whenever we have won the league, we have always followed it up with a bad season. That is why unless we build towards having consistency in our results and performances like Liverpool and especially City, we aren't gonna able to catch them over 38 games. Relying on others to have a meltdown for us to have success is not sustainable. 

Once you realize you are not in title race you may lose motivation and lose many more points you normally would not. So possibly it wont show the real gap.

Also 10 points difference can easily be 4 smallest possible details like goal in extra time or something...

We always expected City to finish over 90 points but the table gap only exist because we lost so many points against low level teams we should not even if lets say we are 3rd team in quality in the league. City have nothing to do with that. 

Lampard was 12 points behind City when he left, TT finished 19 behind so gap for him was 7. Now 8. No improvement.

Since Conte is Spurs manager he lost less points than Liverpool so there is no gap he need to close on them?

Lille finish over PSG last season, now 18 points behind. Things like this happen all the time.

 

[Jase 43,479]

19 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Once you realize you are not in title race you may lose motivation and lose many more points you normally would not. So possibly it wont show the real gap.

Isn't this down to the manager to make sure the team build consistency, to instill a winning mentality and not just win when they want to? As I said earlier, we aren't going to catch City or Liverpool if we don't build any sort of consistency over the course of the season. On top of that, this group has not won the Premier League title before, apart from Azpi and Alonso. So, they can't just turn it on whenever they want to and think they can just walk over anyone. If we want to be best, we should aspire to keep winning games regardless whether we can win the big prize at the end of it. That's what the top teams do. 

22 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

We always expected City to finish over 90 points but the table gap only exist because we lost so many points against low level teams we should not even if lets say we are 3rd team in quality in the league. City have nothing to do with that. 

Lampard was 12 points behind City when he left, TT finished 19 behind so gap for him was 7. Now 8. No improvement.

Since Conte is Spurs manager he lost less points than Liverpool so there is no gap he need to close on them?

Since when league titles are won over a small period of games? You're nitpicking at that when I've said it's all about the consistency over 38 games. Also and more importantly, it's less about the points and more about the performances. If we maintain consistency over the performances, then the results will follow. Otherwise, we end up what we've been seeing this season (again) and over the last few seasons.

30 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Lille finish over PSG last season, now 18 points behind. Things like this happen all the time.

This is kinda a daft example. It was one of those seasons for Lille, where everything aligned for them. It's like when Leicester won the league. It's great for them but we also know it was gonna be a one off and they aren't a big enough side to sustain it season in season out. Are you happy with success like, winning the league once every blue moon?