🇪🇸 Juan Mata

[Korea 734]

You have praised Ji Dong Won on many occasions, who is a terrible striker.

Ji dong won to BVB. Last season, people laughed at the idea on the Sunderland board and thought it was korean made bs...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25779113

Ki Seung Yeung is still not getting recalled by Landrup, even though they are one game away from regulation with their whole midfield injured (along with playing their CBs as CM).....

Landrup sure does take personal grudges to full extent...

I sure did praise him many times

[Rambo 1,729]

Sorry for mentioning you, I just cant understand how what I said can be racist. Anyway lets just all move on and forget all about this mess...

It sounded racist because you made the assumption Korea chose Kagawa over Mata because of his nationality. By telling him to "stick to your Asian football" makes you sound ignorant and dismissive.

[Dion 2,476]

Agreed. His race is irrelevant.

I really don't like when someone throws the word "race" to describe a human being. Because it is the sort of thinking that brings racism - the separation of people in one group or another, this is specially stupid when every person is so similar to one another. It should be avoided - especially the usage of the word race, on account of every barbaric thing that has been done in the name of superiority of one "race" upon another.

In Brazil people will usually try to avoid categorizing others by race nowadays. The term ethnicity or similar would be more palatable.

[Special Juan 28,765]

Really annoyed how some of you take topics off course when told to crack on.

After this there is no tolerance, warnings happen now get back to Mata please.

[Stats 7,227]

Ki is quality, he would absolutely be a decent player for Chelsea. Technically he is very, very good.

He is a good player for mid-table teams but teams like us where we compete for major honours, no thanks but anyway back to Mata, I think he is going to silence some people this season.

[NiclasCFC 2,582]

It sounded racist because you made the assumption Korea chose Kagawa over Mata because of his nationality. By telling him to "stick to your Asian football" makes you sound ignorant and dismissive.

That was certainly not my intention, sorry if it came out like that. now as Special Juan said, lets drop it and move on.

[Jase 43,479]

4 pages of alleged racism...in a player thread.

[termninja 5,290]

It's funny how some Manu fans only now realize that Mata is not as pacy as Ronaldo and Messi

[Myself 793]

man i miss this guy so much such a fucking lad, wish he was still here.

[different level 1,056]

It's really shocking and disrespectful towards Mata to compare that useless piece of trash Kagawa with him.

That's the guy who couldn't get in United's first team for two years. I'm surprised he's still there. I think someone bragged about his stats when he was in Dortmund. Well do you know how many goals he scored last season with 30 app in all competitions? I know you can check by yourself, but I'll help you - 0.

Also if people insist on the importance of Kagawa's time at Dortmund for the argument, I might try to make a Torres vs RVP comparison based on that logic so you see how ridiculous this is.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

It's really shocking and disrespectful towards Mata to compare that useless piece of trash Kagawa with him.

That's the guy who couldn't get in United's first team for two years. I'm surprised he's still there. I think someone bragged about his stats when he was in Dortmund. Well do you know how many goals he scored last season with 30 app in all competitions? I know you can check by yourself, but I'll help you - 0.

Also if people insist on the importance of Kagawa's time at Dortmund for the argument, I might try to make a Torres vs RVP comparison based on that logic so you see how ridiculous this is.

We are officially scousers...

[different level 1,056]

We are officially scousers...

I was already pissed off before reading the posts here and you're not really helping my case with your moronic statement. If you want to be a scouser then go on and have fun with that...

Don't quote my post if you have nothing to say.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I was already pissed off before reading the posts here and you're not really helping my case with your moronic statement. If you want to be a scouser then go on and have fun with that...

Don't quote my post if you have nothing to say.

You read the post. But you didn't understand it. You are way too angry on seeing the first statement, and that has shrouded your judgement.

No one here has claimed that Kagawa is miles better than Mata, while the opposite has been done. In rebuttal it was put forward that Kagawa is quite good at things Mata can't do, while Mata is quite good at things Kagawa can't do. The most extreme comment you can find is that someone stated Kagawa was a more well rounded player. Atleast in Chelsea's perspective, that could be true.

The Torres comparison made me cringe though, and someone made that point before. I really don't get it. Torres is past it, his injuries made him lose the attributes he depended most on. He's past it. Put him in any system, he can't score. The man is over both physically and psychologically. Kagawa on the other hand has been mishandled. It's obvious to see.

At Dortmund he had positional freedom, something Chelsea's front three have. Their gegenpressing system meant that he would have to work really hard in dropping back and initiation counter-attacks. I would even go on to same that at the time, he was one of the best pressers in the team. No one came close to how hard he worked. I obviously didn't watch Dortmund anymore after he left ( which was pretty bad on my part), but Reus probably ended up as the next best presser. Getting the similarity now? This is what I believe lead the person to claim that he was a more well rounded player. With Chelsea's perspective in mind.

At United he's given freedom to drop into the penalty box, something Rooney excels at. He's never going to be good at it. Fergie and Moyes then tried to play him on the left, but didn't give him the freedom to drop inside. This made him suffer. That does not make him shit as a player.

Mata at Chelsea was given all the freedom in the world, and he excelled while Chelsea tactically did suffer. But he's so good of a player that no one needs to notice it. You're still awed by what he's pulled off. But when Mourinho came along and demanded that the players pick up extra tactical duties which included always working hard, he suffered. Against Swansea yesterday, he was responsible for letting go off Ki, who went on to score. These are huge flaws. But that does not make him shit as a player.

The fact is no one has claimed that Mata is utter shit. He's not. There are things he can do that many attacking midfielders can't dream off, but he fits a system. Only that system. The same goes for Kagawa. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't seen him being used by Klopp, than you wouldn't have been saying that, because that is pretty disrespectful. At United, in the wrong system, he's sadly a shirt seller. At Dortmund, and in the right kind of system, he isn't.

I'm not using the past to support him. Past is the past, its over. You can't judge a player now cause of it. Drogba isn't even close to what he was at his prime. But Kagawa's situation is complex. Just like Miroslav 'I can only perform with Germany and not with my club' Klose is complex.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I think people need to understand that whilst you can respect him for what he did here and be grateful for his contributions both on and off the pitch, there's nothing wrong with wanting to see him fail at United.

Personally I hope all United's signings fail.

I hope Mourinho's decision to sell him based on his deficiencies is validated each and every week.

That doesn't mean I don't like him or want to see him harmed, but I do want what's best for this club and he's now a United player so quite honestly fuck him. I'll say thanks to him for everything he did for us but I'll also take a huge deal of pleasure in reading United fans come to the realisation that he's a powderpuff player defensively who will leave holes for other teams to exploit.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

Actually, in hindsight i had to change my mind, Mou was probably was right to sell Mata, even though to a team that has been a rival of ours for a decade and even though a player in his prime. It was a gamble and it looks like it will pay off. We got good money for a player we did not need and now we have Fabregas who is a lot more complete for less money than what we got for Juan.

On the other hand IMO, Mata was a fool to force the move. He could have easily stayed here, still would have a good 30 games per season and actually compete for titles. If Utd don't add some major signings they will be challenging for top 4 or 3 but nothing more. MOu did not like his deficiencies which were exposed in his system, but I think he could have used him in some games.

On a side note, Mata is probably marginally better than Kagawa due to his slightly superior vision, passing and finishing and ball control, but when on form Kagawa is faster, more direct and a way better athlete. Kagawa was even more dumb to join Utd to rot on the bench with players like Valencia and Young starting over him. He should have known, SAF never used a proper no10 and it seemed to me, he somehow was forced to make that signing after we got Hazard. At Dortmund he might have had the chance to play with Reus and maintain their grip on the league title a bit longer.

[LAB 1,030]

Mata should be used correctly this season. Can't stay mediocre for too long. Some ppl will regret their sayings...

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

you know what I liked about this?

The kind of thread they have. I think we could have some similar threads with players performances in the season. I really like this idea. That way we separate our general opinion from the guy from what he's been really showing. It's a nice thread to have.

Then the thread most of the time will be filled with Torres, Mikel and Oscar names all over it, even if any of them not playing at all.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

It's really true that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Whilst browsing Redcafe I found people who rate Oscar a lot higher than Kagawa and very close to Mata. They think Hazard will definitely be at the bare minimum a player of Ribery's and Robben's caliber, if not Messi/Ronaldo level. They're truly scared of Costa, Hazard, Oscar, Schürrle, Willian, Fabregas and Matic. And they also think we'll win the league comfortably, with a few games to spare

Relevant:

"It just hit me, and I don't know why I'm late to the party here...but Chelsea are going to dominate this season aren't they?

They've improved their team brilliantly this summer."

-

"Don't think they'll 'walk' it but I think they'll win, and pretty comfortably, with like a couple of games to spare.

I think having Matic completely settled alongside Fabregas in midfield, with Hazard, Oscar and Schürrle in front of them and a competent CF (I don't rate Diego Costa that highly, but I think he'll be fine for them with the formation they play, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Drogba still doing a job when called upon) makes them a really strong unit. Cahill/Terry is a strong partnership, not the best in European football but very solid, their fullbacks are good and they've got a top keeper, and Mourinho will be extremely focused.

I think last year, there was a bit of unrest with all the Mata stuff during the first half and José seeming less motivated in the second part of the season, and yet they still fared well. I think this season they'll be even more competitive."

-

"It was only preseason, yes, but it doesn't look as though Costa is going to flop and struggle to adapt to his new team like the vast majority thought does it? Everyone saw that he had the physique and skill set to fit the PL like a glove but people are/were still wondering if he'd keep up his scoring form.

I've seen highlights of his preseason and he got 4 goals and 2 assists and looks like he's been playing with their team for years. Already looks totally settled.

Hazard was the most creative player in the league last season statistically I believe and now with Fabregas, a LB who actually gets forward, and Willian and Schürrle with a seasons experience under their belts their attack should be frightening and scoring goals against parked buses shouldn't be a problem."

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

ps: a bit off-topic, I'm sorry.

This is why I think MU fans are much more respectful and rational than Pool, Arsenal or Spurs fans. You will not find that kind of post in Pool, Arsenal and Spurs forum in a million years.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

4 pages of alleged racism...in an ex-player thread.

Fixed

[different level 1,056]

You read the post. But you didn't understand it. You are way too angry on seeing the first statement, and that has shrouded your judgement.

No one hear has claimed that Kagawa is miles better than Mata, while the opposite has been done. In rebuttal it was put forward that Kagawa is quite good at things Mata can't do, while Mata is quite good at things Kagawa can't do. The most extreme comment you can find is that someone stated Kagawa was a more well rounded player. Atleast in Chelsea's perspective, that could be true.

The Torres comparison made me cringe though, and someone made that point before. I really don't get it. Torres is past it, his injuries made him lose the attributes he depended most on. He's past it. Put him in any system, he can't score. The man is over both physically and psychologically. Kagawa on the other hand has been mishandled. It's obvious to see.

At Dortmund he had positional freedom, something Chelsea's front three have. Their gegenpressing system meant that he would have to work really hard in dropping back and initiation counter-attacks. I would even go on to same that at the time, he was one of the best pressers in the team. No one came close to how hard he worked. I obviously didn't watch Dortmund anymore after he left ( which was pretty bad on my part), but Reus probably ended up as the next best presser. Getting the similarity now? This is what I believe lead the person to claim that he was a more well rounded player. With Chelsea's perspective in mind.

At United he's given freedom to drop into the penalty box, something Rooney excels at. He's never going to be good at it. Fergie and Moyes then tried to play him on the left, but didn't give him the freedom to drop inside. This made him suffer. That does not make him shit as a player.

Mata at Chelsea was given all the freedom in the world, and he excelled while Chelsea tactically did suffer. But he's so good of a player that no one needs to notice it. You're still awed by what he's pulled off. But when Mourinho came along and demanded that the players pick up extra tactical duties which included always working hard, he suffered. Against Swansea yesterday, he was responsible for letting go off Ki, who went on to score. These are huge flaws. But that does not make him shit as a player.

The fact is no one has claimed that Mata is utter shit. He's not. There are things he can do that many attacking midfielders can't dream off, but he fits a system. Only that system. The same goes for Kagawa. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't seen him being used by Klopp, than you wouldn't have been saying that, because that is pretty disrespectful. At United, in the wrong system, he's sadly a shirt seller. At Dortmund, and in the right kind of system, he isn't.

I'm not using the past to support him. Past is the past, its over. You can't judge a player now cause of it. Drogba isn't even close to what he was at his prime. But Kagawa's situation is complex. Just like Miroslav 'I can only perform with Germany and not with my club' Klose is complex.

Mata has more than one season to prove his worth. During his time here he's worked with 4 managers and he was the top star while playing for the first 3 of them. He was given freedom by RDM and Rafa and his creative prowess produced lots of goals and assists and no wonder he was picked as Chelsea's player of the season for two consecutive seasons.

I don't get why is he blamed for our tactical inadequacy back then as probably him at attacking free role (and later Hazard and Oscar) was our best way to go at the time, given all the circumstances. Also we had much bigger problems like the one in defense and midfield. Remembering AVB's high defensive line with JT (who is not exactly blessed with pace) and David Luiz (who was running around the pitch like a headless chicken) still gives me a headache.

I never buy the excuse of someone not being able to "fit the system". Everytime a new manager comes he has his own set of requirements so the players need to be adaptive and work hard in order to do what is asked of them. Mata's inability to press and his poor work off the ball have been ever present since he joined us in 2011. However, back then the focus was on his creativity as he was excused of his defensive duties. When Jose came he was fully aware of those flaws and he instantly gave his spot to Oscar who is a better tackler, but probably two times less creative. Sure Mata's poor form at the time didn't help his case, but he clearly didn't play as much as he needed to. Ultimately he was the one who decided to go rather than stay, work through his weaknesses and earn Jose's trust. Ironically he'd have a great opportunity to do that considering how useless has Oscar been after January. Afterwards I didn't see a lot of him, but after a slow start for United he picked up some form and scored 6 goals and it's probably fair to say he did okay, despite not being played CAM.

As for Kagawa people seem to build their opinion of him as a player on his single good season with Dortmund. You could be right that he's being misused, but either way he's a big flop. He still should have had many strong games and the only one I can think of is the one against Norwich in the spring of 2013 when he scored a hat-trick.

When he first came in England he was compared with Hazard which proved to be more laughable by the day. Eden is not the best presser, he's not always tracking back and that's why Jose said he wants more from him when the Belgian received his Chelsea POTY award 3 months ago. But I don't think anyone here would consider comparing our best player to Kagawa.

As I said, you might be right about Kagawa. I've barely seen him play for Dortmund as I don't watch the Bundesliga, but still the only argument in his favour seems to be his time in Dortmund, which is simply not good enough to compare him with the likes of Mata.