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Fulham Broadway

The Mourinho Thread

Started by Fulham Broadway,

38,195 posts in this topic

This is my argument though... How is putting RLC or Boga into any team automatically going to kill our momentum? It's a myth. Using a game or two to give a small amount of the academy lads a go is hardly going to disrupt our whole season is it now? Do you seriously believe such?

Sweet jesus. This is going around in circles. I'm done. Agree to Disagree and all that.

Muzchap, The Mak and The Skipper like this

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If anything fresh energy spur it on.Not point having a academy if its not going to be used.Just seems a case of players on loan and rarely coming back.Understand theres pressure but starting with them or having on for 20 mins wont do harm.Can only gain experience through having a go

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Of course they have the capability of beating Derby and similarly Derby have the capabilities of winning as well. No one said they would have definitely lost but from what we knew about Derby and the match I think they would have severely damaged our likelihood of winning the match and I think that was proved by the performances yesterday.

So you honestly think playing RLC or Boga would severely damage our likelihood of winning against a team like Derby? Incredible.

And, please, don't tell me that you seriously believe that Boga can perform as well as Schurrle in any circumstance! That's just ridiculous over-hyping that ends up only hurting the players themselves like what happened with Chalobah.

You're telling me that Boga definitely can't put in a better performance than the one Schurrle gave us yesterday? Incredible yet again.

No one from our academy currently is even remotely close to first team quality. Zouma is the only youngster close and you can make a case for Ake but he's unfortunately been injured in the period where he might have been given a couple of chances. Everyone else, from RLC to Boga, Baker, Swift, Christensen....etc. even if they were given more time this season they are still going to have to go on loan and prove themselves before they could become part of the first team. Anyone who thinks differently is just deluding themselves, imho.

Well here's where the discussion ends then. You clearly think that someone like Boga or RLC aren't anywhere near quality enough to even contribute to the team in any sort of game we'll play this season, whilst I think that is absolute rubbish and that they are definitely more than talented enough to do exactly that. Each to their own though I guess. We'll agree to disagree.

PS - I have never really counted Zouma as a youngster. He was bought for £12m.

killer1257 likes this

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For me it's one word...'Integration'

I can 100% see why they haven't been given the so called limelight debut in a full capacity, but in the same breath it's like nurturing a flower to grow but then allowing it to blossom in full sun light. Games like Schalke away are good examples where games are dead at one certain point and that's the point they should be shown the field and I think this is the main point. There is massive emphasis on this group and club to produce something this season and right now it's looking very good, but there is also a point where there will be games where players like Ake and Boga can be integrated onto the bench and given the chance in the last 15-20 minutes.

The frustrating thing from my point of view is seeing games dead, and then fetching on say Schurrle, when the option of young blood can then be brought on.

Muzchap, Amblève. and The Skipper like this

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Explain why LvG started Wilson, in a massive PREMIER LEAGUE match against Liverpool, ahead of a fit Falcao? That would never happen here, even though we have bigger talents. LvG has just been in his job for a few months and is already showing confidence in some youth players, showing them if the seniors aren't performing that they'll have a chance.

But that won't happen here, not even in a dead rubber match like the Sporting game or Derby in the COC.

Because Falcao is a half-fit enigma?

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I wasn't only talking about the Derby game to be honest, it was more of a general statement to reflect the opportunities that could've been given to them over the course of the season, should've made that a bit clearer.

You can't tell me a side like this (for example) don't have the capabilities to beat the likes of Derby:

Cech

Azpi - Zouma - JT - Luis

Matic - RLC

Fabregas

Boga - Drogba - Hazard

These kids are talented, yes they aren't experienced and yes it's a risk but when playing these youths that's what you have to expect. It's a risk-reward thing. So what if the Derby game was pretty tough? Isn't that why we surround these youngsters with plenty of experience? If we can't trust these in a situation like Derby in the COC QF or even a dead rubber match like the Sporting one, when will we ever trust them? How will they ever get 'that' experience? You can't tell me for certain that someone like Boga would've definitely performed more negatively than Schurrle who was pretty awful apart from his goal.

@ CHOULO19 - how exactly have you concluded that if we played an XI similar to the one above that we definitely would've lost against Derby? I'm not buying it sorry. The integration from the academy this season has been very poor and could've been a lot better, it's my only real gripe with Jose this season. I understand that he's a winner and that he wants to win it all but giving the likes of RLC and Boga, who are extremely talented, a chance whilst trying to achieve that shouldn't be too difficult IMO.

I would be all for playing this side if we had this ethos from the beginning of the competition so at least the chemistry is there. For example first round against Bolton, I would have liked to see the likes of Baker, Boga, etc to play but they never even managed an appearance in the opening round or the following game against Shrewsbury. Bolton we were at home to and that is the ideal time to trust some of our brightest academy products however this never happened. Then we played a team inferior to both Derby and Bolton and although we made hard work of it, none of our brightest academy players bar Ake and Christensen played. Again, I felt this would have been an ideal game to play maybe Boga or Baker however this never happened and I have to respect that we have a big squad so the ones who were struggling to get starts like Schurrle and Salah needed minutes as well but now we got past that stage and considering RLC has only played 8 minutes for us so far and Boga has not played a competitive fixture for us, I just think it was not the right time to do it.

I do agree with you that Boga could have easily done a job better than Schurrle but I would have rather seen him him make his debut previously. QF stage and thinking the likes of Schurrle have not got much minutes, you would think he had to play. But I agree about the questioning of when will our youngsters be given a chance. I knew as soon as we saw RLC only play 8 minutes against Sporting Lisbon that there would be no youngsters in the team against Derby. Or put it this way, when you fail to see the likes of Baker, Boga, RLC get any minutes against Bolton or Shrewsbury it was a myth that they would play any part against Derby in the QF.

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I would be all for playing this side if we had this ethos from the beginning of the competition so at least the chemistry is there. For example first round against Bolton, I would have liked to see the likes of Baker, Boga, etc to play but they never even managed an appearance in the opening round or the following game against Shrewsbury. Bolton we were at home to and that is the ideal time to trust some of our brightest academy products however this never happened. Then we played a team inferior to both Derby and Bolton and although we made hard work of it, none of our brightest academy players bar Ake and Christensen played. Again, I felt this would have been an ideal game to play maybe Boga or Baker however this never happened and I have to respect that we have a big squad so the ones who were struggling to get starts like Schurrle and Salah needed minutes as well but now we got past that stage and considering RLC has only played 8 minutes for us so far and Boga has not played a competitive fixture for us, I just think it was not the right time to do it.

I do agree with you that Boga could have easily done a job better than Schurrle but I would have rather seen him him make his debut previously. QF stage and thinking the likes of Schurrle have not got much minutes, you would think he had to play. But I agree about the questioning of when will our youngsters be given a chance. I knew as soon as we saw RLC only play 8 minutes against Sporting Lisbon that there would be no youngsters in the team against Derby. Or put it this way, when you fail to see the likes of Baker, Boga, RLC get any minutes against Bolton or Shrewsbury it was a myth that they would play any part against Derby in the QF.

Hence why I said that my complaint isn't mutually exclusive to the Derby game alone. In fact, you've fully highlighted the problem - they should've been playing in the competition from the start.
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Lvg recently said Falcao can only play 20 minutes per game (not sure if he's fully recovered), maybe that's why he started Wilson.

Even if that was true which I doubt he had other options he could have exhausted before Wilson if he was a manager that doesn't believe in youth. Herrera, Fletcher and Januzaj (who at this point is a certified first teamer/not considered a mere youth anymore) were available. Those 3 could have been used instead of wilson and one of them, Herrera, is a starter for them.

LDN Blue, The Skipper and Stats like this

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http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumours-news/2014/12/17/7408429/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumor-lovre-kalinic-tino-sven-susic

This right here is example of why no youth will ever break through at Chelsea. We had rather buy exceedingly average squad fillers like salah and Susic to eat up the minute and squad space that should be reserved for our most promising youths and loaned players and then wonder why we have such a terrible record.

Amblève., LDN Blue and Term-X like this

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http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumours-news/2014/12/17/7408429/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumor-lovre-kalinic-tino-sven-susic

This right here is example of why no youth will ever break through at Chelsea. We had rather buy exceedingly average squad fillers like salah and Susic to eat up the minute and squad space that should be reserved for our most promising youths and loaned players and then wonder why we have such a terrible record.

All history shows is how it was done, not how it's going to be done :)

The heat is on - We need a trophy this year.

So Mourinho plays younger guys, that have not featured before, we lose - club stalls, end the season trophy less - Mourinho gets fired... (A supposition based on our previous performance, one and the same as your youth integration argument)

Was it a good idea to integrate youth?

Or how about?

We keep a settled team making minimal changes, compete in 4 trophies, win 50% of them. The season after start integrating players when the pressure is off and Mou is not fired.

Very simple in my eyes

stroey likes this

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All history shows is how it was done, not how it's going to be done :)

The heat is on - We need a trophy this year.

So Mourinho plays younger guys, that have not featured before, we lose - club stalls, end the season trophy less - Mourinho gets fired... (A supposition based on our previous performance, one and the same as your youth integration argument)

Was it a good idea to integrate youth?

Or how about?

We keep a settled team making minimal changes, compete in 4 trophies, win 50% of them. The season after start integrating players when the pressure is off and Mou is not fired.

Very simple in my eyes

Ah you are right. if we win trophies it will be because of squad fillers whose contributions are negligible at best and if we fail to succeed it will be because we played one or two youth players in meaningless games and COC :rolleyes:.

More salahs, Moses and marins please. fuck the youth and productive loaned players like Bamford and thorgan.

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Ah you are right. if we win trophies it will be because of squad fillers whose contributions are negligible at best and if we fail to succeed it will be because we played one or two youth players in meaningless games and COC :rolleyes:.

More salahs, Moses and marins please. fuck the youth and productive loaned players like Bamford and thorgan.

Yeah because that's what I said?

Show me one post where I say we should buy players like that?

I want the guys to come through - but this isn't the right season to do it. Bamford is playing well and is on a season long loan, so is perfect for next season - he is a good poacher with decent link up play, spending a year in the Championship won't hurt him - look at Harry Kane - he spent a season in the Championship and is now taking his chances.

I enjoy the debate - but please don't make out that I'm not supporting the Youth system - as that's not true.

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how about the players he needs to build confidence, give motivation to play are the ones that are actually playing and who came from two negative results?

And that's impossible to do without playing one or two academy players right?

Come on, I don't get this obsession to play the youth. They'll get their chance, it's not like if they don't get it now they'll never get it. And for God's sake in which world playing ONE SINGLE GAME equals to integration? The team LOST momentum by the level of our presentations and the two consecutive bad results in the league. the players needed their confidence back... this group had serious issues last season with motivation and having a winning spirit. To say it in clear words, they bottled, they weren't focused and sharp enough.

Again I repeat, is it impossible for the team to pick up momentum if we play two academy youngsters in 2 games or so? Does that suddenly kill all of our momentum?

You know I respect you a lot, but your posts on this subject make it looks like if José doesn't give a chance for those kids now they'll never get it and our academy will be fated to die. The overreaction around this subject has been tiring... even if as someone pointed out the arguments have been civil and some very nice posts were written on the subject on both instances.

Also, Mourinho doesn't have to do whatever van Gaal does. They're different coaches, with different approaches. Van Gaal isn't the reference to anything. He's won the same others had. He isn't way ahead anyone in terms of titles or tactics and good for him if he's known as a manager that integrates young players. There are many mistakes he's been doing with this Manchester team - starting with their signings, with his stubbornness with some of his tactics. They all make mistakes, José included, but I don't get the desperation you guys have about academy. With time they kids that are good enough will receive chances and if they use them well, they'll be fully integrated.

When it comes to integrating youth, van Gaal is an excellent point of reference. He's shown countless and countless of times that you can do it and still dominate and win titles. I'm just using LvG as a pretty good example for youth integration. I'm not comparing his other facets as a manager (why that even needs to be brought up, I don't know).

I don't expect everyone (and this is a general statement, not directed at you Barb) to be as passionate or 'desperate' as you would put it to see these academy guys come through because some don't get the joy it brings to fans, how one of our own made it through the ranks and became a top quality player, someone that's Chelsea made, knows the club, knows the Bridge etc... It's very sentimental yes, but for me it's important; at the same time I'm not deluded. If the talent wasn't there I'd be fine with the non integration but it's there alright. We've got one of the best academies and best young talent in Europe, by quite some distance too. Jose himself has commented on how this batch is far more talented than those during his first spell here. I understand this stuff is not as important for everyone but each to their own right? Not everyone follows the youth team regularly, checks on how each player is progressing and actually watches youth games... That's fine.

The same way this club hasn't had manager stability in the latest years, Mourinho didn't either - by his own choice. He came here with the idea of leaving, he went to Inter with the idea of leaving. The most he stayed in a club has been three years. He isn't a manager that planned to stay somewhere for a long time, but now he's changed his speech. So the least we could do is give him time to see what he plans to do. No manager with the idea of leaving a club in a couple of years will work with the academy in long term because whether you guys agree or not, academy isn't something that can be worked under a 2-year work.

I understand that very well but that doesn't excuse the poor integration this year for me. I argued this exact point for Mourinho throughout the season last year, expecting him to pick it up this season and he barely has, even with all his raving about how if the likes of Baker, Brown, Solanke etc. don't make it he would've 'failed' and stuff like how the game against sporting was academy day... His words do not match his actions at all when it comes to the youth integration thing.

As I've said before, I've really enjoyed almost everything Jose has done this season and the only thing I have a real problem with is the lack of youth integration, but then again this subject isn't as important to some on here, and a lot of you seem to think that playing one, two or three academy talents in a handful of games so far would've derailed our season completely. As I said before though, each to their own.

dee25, killer1257, Strike and 1 other like this

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It's the same excuses coming out 'this season is crucial', every season is crucial. Where do you draw the line? Guarantee next season will also be dubbed as 'crucial' because we're going to attempt to retain trophies.

I believe this season is far more crucial than other seasons because:

We have young players that want to win and be the best players in the world. If the only major thing they have won is the Europa league, then I doubt we can hold on to them should someone like Real come.

Jose hasn't won anything for 2 years. His myth of being a great manager and the fabled second season of his would be tarnished if he doesn't win at least the PL. Roman says he is looking to the long term but how long would his patience last?

We haven't won the PL since Carlo, which was quite some time ago. Far too long for a club of our status.

Muzchap likes this

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No one is asking Mourinho to field an 11 of academy youngsters, where are people getting that from? IMO it isn't the end of the world if we field an experienced 11 and integrate two or three youth players i.e. Boga, RLC and Aké, and surround them with 8/9 senior players. Surely that isn't too much to ask? Surely we should be able to beat a team like Derby with a set up like that?

But you're putting the youth players ahead of the squad players who need games as well. There is a pecking order that you seem to be ignoring... Boga, RLC and Ake are behind Ramires, Salah, Mikel, Schurrle.

Muzchap and darrus like this

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