Welcome Mauricio Pochettino

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

11 hours ago, Thor said:

I think we aren't as far off as people are making. 

Most of us here are emotional wrecks because we love the club so much. But it really isn't as dire (outside of the results). 

We are at the tipping point IMO, where things start falling where they should. It isn't a case of changing 50% of it all. It is about tweaking and fine tuning. We won't be winning it all, but this side is a few tweaks and some consistency away from challenging for top 4-6. 

TBH - People complaining about not getting Felix and Dusan are the same ones that didn't want them before the season started. It isn't a squad/player problem. We can score goals - just like any other team can. Brighton don't have a "proven" goalscorer, and neither do plenty of other teams, so the excuse is just bollocks. 

We lack consistency and confidence. Poch needs to set up an attacking side and let the cards play out how they may.

I envy your optimism but I am afraid the absolute opposite is the case. From pre season on there were two scenarios possible:

The one where we hit the ground running, build up massive hype with this young team gaining confidence and growing as players and ending up challenging for top 4.

And then the one where we get tons of injuries, nothing clicks, everyone goes hiding in their shell, all the young players regressing, losing all confidence and ultimately their market value by immersing in their loser mentality. No leaders on or off the pitch, least in the directors box, everyone is clueless , blaming each other, complete disarray and we end up fighting relegation.

Unfortunately the latter scenario is the one unfolding. Sure we could still get lucky, our two only genuine U38 world class players RJ and Nkunku come back fully fit, take responsibility and drag us out of the swamp. but if they don’t, if they - god forbid -end up perma wrecked, there is a real chance this goes further south from here.

There is a sizeable probability this entire 1bn generation of youth goes completely down the drain. We bought them all on potential, not ability. They were always only gonna fulfill that potential in a well run club and squad with a competent manager and leading figures to mould them. Not all by themselves among other prospects on a ship without captain or direction. We might very well be finished as a top club for the rest of the decade. I am not trying to be alarmist here but accepting this possible reality will stop a lot of hurt.

it might be tempting but anyone who thinks this is just a blip and everything will be fine in a few weeks is deluding themselves. What we see on the pitch is only the tip of the iceberg. Everything points to there being even greater turmoil behind the scenes. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

Think he will be gone in January. No way he finds a way to get through the Oct-Dec period unscathed. 

[DH1988 1,348]

The run of games coming up are an absolute gauntlet which will only compound the issue(s) further, we really needed to do a United here and squeeze the points out somehow like they are, albeit from dodgy referee calls mainly, irrespective it's a daunting time for Poch and I can't help but look at how 180 degrees we looked in preseason.. Mentality was there and pressing every single ball.

[TheHulk 2,482]

He doesn't give me any confidence he can turn this around, with Tuchel I had this feeling here zilch.

[NikkiCFC 8,335]

We all agree Poch is way better coach than Lampard.

Lamps got top4 in 19/20 season with based on minutes they played this lineup:

Kepa 24

Azpi 29

Chris 23

Zouma 24

Alonso 28

Jorginho 27

Kovacic 25

Mount 20

Pulisic 20

Willian 30

Abraham 21

A lot of minutes also for very young players like James 19, Tomori 21, CHO 18. But he also used some experienced players like Kante, Rudiger, Giroud.

We still have now Silva, Chilwell, Sterling for experienced players so not sure that can be used as main reason why we are so bad now.

There are probably couple of reasons. I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa...

We are very solid defensively now, Lamps team was conceding a lot of goals. The main difference is scoring goals. That team scored 69 league goals, this one if continue like this will be around 35 goals.

Abraham scored 15 league goals, Willian and Pulisic 9, Giroud 8 and Mount 7. This is top5 goalscorers that season with 48 goals. Our whole squad cannot score that per season now.

Question is why Jackson, Sterling, Mudryk... cannot do that? If Nkunku is fit and Jackson is not horrible in front of the goal we would have different conversation now.

Really a couple of small details... Enzo scores penalty and WH loss is a win... Yesterday on 0:0 Jackson and Sterling missed one on one. Against Bournemouth we hit the post twice. Again Sterling and Jackson.

Nottingham again unreal miss from Jackson. We beat Luton, Liverpool is fair result. But from WH, AV, NF and Bournemouth instead of 12 points we got 1. I just said why, couple of small details. 

We have same expected goals as Spurs. But difference is they score we do not. 

Like I said Nkunku injury was big blow, Jackson conversation rate is horrible and not having another experienced striker was mistake. Sterling also should have scored more. Even Chilwell had 2 golden chances.

Fans always put too much onto results but bigger picture is much more positive.

Luton game aside we scored 2 goals in 5 games and have around 15 big chances missed. When analyzing our results we really should not look further than that.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by NikkiCFC

[Vegetable 830]

11 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

There are probably couple of reasons. I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa...

 

Truth is, people are never happy and while some of those players were frustrating to watch, Jorginho was one dimensional, yet quality passer, Willian output was better, than anyone we've got later and only dropped off at the very end, Alonso was universally hated, but so far even his doubtful quality wasn't matched here. People on this board bashing every player, but it doesn't mean they are suddenly Championship quality. Actually, it only happened when a wish of big lot of our fanbase came true, everyone was sold and we have gotten actual non-PL level squad.

But the important thing is Tammy, Zouma, Mount or Pulisic had season of their life back then and the important question is how came? Was it just luck, or something else?

Giroud was essential when we were struggling in the front line and I'll say it again, it was way too optimistic to let him go. Fabregas situation all over again. Still, that squad was, well, squad. Are we actually balanced and well cooperating team now, I can't say yet.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Vegetable

[Strike 7,493]

2 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Think he will be gone in January. No way he finds a way to get through the Oct-Dec period unscathed. 

this is not like lampard/tuchel/potter. if he ditches this conservative approach, there is a team there which can still rescue this season.

[Strike 7,493]

https://x.com/CFCPys/status/1706328075259040094?s=20

[DDA 9,941]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

https://x.com/CFCPys/status/1706328075259040094?s=20

Clearlake... how about you study this 🖕

[robsblubot 3,595]

4 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

We bought them all on potential, not ability. They were always only gonna fulfill that potential in a well run club and squad with a competent manager and leading figures to mould them.

This is a pretty non-debatable statement tbh. Young players demand an already built team to develop to their potential.
I'd add leaders... we are also missing players with a strong competitive streak who would fight nonstop.

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa

As quoted from the post above, there is a clear confusion here around current ability vs potential ability. They are NOT the same thing. Real life is not Football Manager -- the most unrealistic aspect of FM is regarding how easy and quick young players develop.

Personally I think one very easy way to assess players is merely see where they where, and where they went after their stint with us. With the exception of Zouma, they were all better (Willian just got old), yeah. Kepa is a tossup. This removes some of our personal bias.

Alonso is a funny one; I was one of the few praising his *game winning* ability; players who can score goals need to be praised. Very few players are capable of doing that, so they need to be valued.
Azpi (for Aleti) just had a strong game against Real yesterday... 🤷‍♂️

Edited September 25, 2023 by robsblubot

[NikkiCFC 8,335]

20 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

 

As quoted from the post above, there is a clear confusion here around current ability vs potential ability. They are NOT the same thing. Real life is not Football Manager -- the most unrealistic aspect of FM is regarding how easy and quick young players develop.

Personally I think one very easy way to assess players is merely see where they where, and where they went after their stint with us. With the exception of Zouma, they were all better (Willian just got old), yeah. Kepa is a tossup. This removes some of our personal bias.

Alonso is a funny one; I was one of the few praising his *game winning* ability; players who can score goals need to be praised. Very few players are capable of doing that, so they need to be valued.
Azpi (for Aleti) just had a strong game against Real yesterday... 🤷‍♂️

Would prefer if you answer actual point of my post but ok. That is like me only quoting your last sentence and telling you Azpi played only 25mins last night.

I always liked Kepa, Alonso, Jorginho btw... And who were better? Willian at Arsenal? Alonso? Jorginho barely plays... They all gave us their best years. After they went downhill...  Just like Mount and Havertz for us were 5 or 6/10 and now they are even lower.

Lampard also put 5,6 very young and not experienced players. Mount, Abraham, Tomori, James all came from Championship.

We are compering 30yo Willian of that season and current Sterling 28 who was always more reliable goalscorer.

How many people would take Abraham back?

We are 14th with 5 points after 6 rounds. We would be 2nd with 16 if Enzo hit his pen, and Jackson and Sterling are on 50% conversation rate which is nothing special. Tammy was hitting goals, Jackson is failing. Nothing deeper.

Lampard was not let down by his attackers unlike Poch. Only difference. This is our state. Top5 would be amazing. I feel talk about Sanchez, Disasi, Gallagher, Caicedo, Colwill, Poch, formation is unnecessary and not where any problem is.

 

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Would prefer if you answer actual point of my post but ok. That is like me only quoting your last sentence and telling you Azpi played only 25mins last night.

I always liked Kepa, Alonso, Jorginho btw... And who were better? Willian at Arsenal? Alonso? Jorginho barely plays... They all gave us their best years. After they went downhill...  Just like Mount and Havertz for us were 5 or 6/10 and now they are even lower.

Lampard also put 5,6 very young and not experienced players. Mount, Abraham, Tomori, James all came from Championship.

We are compering 30yo Willian of that season and current Sterling 28 who was always more reliable goalscorer.

How many people would take Abraham back?

We are 14th with 5 points after 6 rounds. We would be 2nd with 16 if Enzo hit his pen, and Jackson and Sterling are on 50% conversation rate which is nothing special. Tammy was hitting goals, Jackson is failing. Nothing deeper.

Lampard was not let down by his attackers unlike Poch. Only difference. This is our state. Top5 would be amazing. I feel talk about Sanchez, Disasi, Gallagher, Caicedo, Colwill, Poch, formation is unnecessary and not where any problem is.

 

It's fair to just point out that Azpi played 25 min; and I would point out that his presence in our children's squad alone, plus perhaps coming on after Gusto got a red yesterday might have made a difference. 🤷‍♂️

Please ignore details, that's my point: just take where the players play. Players who are at top clubs under big wages earned that. It's a very competitive market... almost auction-like. That helps removing bias.

It's hard for me to respond to your post because I don't agree a whole lot with some of the premisses there; nor do I think speaking about Pochettino is very important right now. Lampard's career speaks for itself.

For example, statements like, "We are very solid defensively now" make no sense to me in a fluid sport like football. If that's truly the case for us, that D and A are completely different things, then indeed we are light years from City and Arsenal.

There is no doubt in my mind that Tammy is a better striker than Jackson right now. Would I want Tammy back? if you asked me before the window, nope lets go for better targets (multiple! better targets), like Jackson himself and 1-2 more experienced players for rotation/support.
Right now, hell yeah Tammy would definitely help esp considering the absurd lack of options up front.

We miss A LOT of the players who left. I totally understand that some could not be retained--forced exit and all that, so that's besides the point. I still think the club, esp new ownership isn't blameless for that.

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

this is not like lampard/tuchel/potter. if he ditches this conservative approach, there is a team there which can still rescue this season.

Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

34 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

I don't disagree that it's a potential outcome.

I think you got cause and consequence inverted there; Poch does not play the way he plays because he wants to, but because he believes he has to. Same way a new manager would arrive, take one look at this pitiful squad lacking in all areas, full of children and do exactly the same thing.

For example, I think Chilwell does not play because of Mudryk.

Edited September 25, 2023 by robsblubot

[Vegetable 830]

46 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

If it wasn’t for absolute outrage of fans, I wouldn’t be surprised if Potter was still here. Why You guys think Poch is going anywhere, especially he was chosen after ”long and thoughtful process”, so he is even more marquee Clearlake signing, than Potter was and it’s not like those guys tend to admit their mistakes. They specifically said they will take time to nail the manager choice, so they’d come out as total dummies if he was sacked after 6 months.  

Edited September 25, 2023 by Vegetable

[Vytis33 1,276]

 

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

Lets be honest, if we don’t get results and pressure mounts on the correct people - the owners & footballing directors - they will pull the plug on Poch to save their own skin. 

They did the same with Potter, sacking him months and months too late after initially making the mistake of hiring him. Then hired Lampard as a PR stunt to try and save face because the fanbase was very restless.

Irrespectively of if Poch sees the season out or the long run, these owners and footballing people need to be held accountable for their poor poor judgement which could set this club back years.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by OneMoSalah

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

12 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Lets be honest, if we don’t get results and pressure mounts on the correct people - the owners & footballing directors - they will pull the plug on Poch to save their own skin. 

They did the same with Potter, sacking him months and months too late after initially making the mistake of hiring him. Then hired Lampard as a PR stunt to try and save face because the fanbase was very restless.

Irrespectively of if Poch sees the season out or the long run, these owners and footballing people need to be held accountable for their poor poor judgement which could set this club back years.

 

To many its a slow boiling of the frog, one win every five or six games keeps the hope alive. meanwhile the acceptance of mediocrity becomes the normal. They can Fuck that I hope protests start soon. cant do any harm, and never know might be the kick up the arse the custodians need.

[Thor 2,719]

10 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

We all agree Poch is way better coach than Lampard.

Lamps got top4 in 19/20 season with based on minutes they played this lineup:

Kepa 24

Azpi 29

Chris 23

Zouma 24

Alonso 28

Jorginho 27

Kovacic 25

Mount 20

Pulisic 20

Willian 30

Abraham 21

A lot of minutes also for very young players like James 19, Tomori 21, CHO 18. But he also used some experienced players like Kante, Rudiger, Giroud.

We still have now Silva, Chilwell, Sterling for experienced players so not sure that can be used as main reason why we are so bad now.

There are probably couple of reasons. I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa...

We are very solid defensively now, Lamps team was conceding a lot of goals. The main difference is scoring goals. That team scored 69 league goals, this one if continue like this will be around 35 goals.

Abraham scored 15 league goals, Willian and Pulisic 9, Giroud 8 and Mount 7. This is top5 goalscorers that season with 48 goals. Our whole squad cannot score that per season now.

Question is why Jackson, Sterling, Mudryk... cannot do that? If Nkunku is fit and Jackson is not horrible in front of the goal we would have different conversation now.

Really a couple of small details... Enzo scores penalty and WH loss is a win... Yesterday on 0:0 Jackson and Sterling missed one on one. Against Bournemouth we hit the post twice. Again Sterling and Jackson.

Nottingham again unreal miss from Jackson. We beat Luton, Liverpool is fair result. But from WH, AV, NF and Bournemouth instead of 12 points we got 1. I just said why, couple of small details. 

We have same expected goals as Spurs. But difference is they score we do not. 

Like I said Nkunku injury was big blow, Jackson conversation rate is horrible and not having another experienced striker was mistake. Sterling also should have scored more. Even Chilwell had 2 golden chances.

Fans always put too much onto results but bigger picture is much more positive.

Luton game aside we scored 2 goals in 5 games and have around 15 big chances missed. When analyzing our results we really should not look further than that.

 

 

Great take. I completely agree. We have the quality on the field, it is just at that tipping point. Fans are fickle, as most will be in here. I let my emotions get the best of me during games, but I can go back and see what I watched and realised it isn't doom and gloom, but rather close. 

I don't want to see Poch sacked. I think our play has gotten better over the games. 

Great teams find a way to win when they don't play well. We don't have that just yet. 

 

My only issue with this current slump is player harmony and confidence. That'll be even worse if they get rid of Poch, because the players will think its a pisstake, and they can just lull their way through a season and have the manager blamed every time. 

 

It isn't an experience thing. It isn't a player quality thing. Fans on here are kidding themselves with cope. 

We have a world cup winner in Enzo. Thiago Silva. Chilly who has won a CL. Caicedo has PL experience and is one of the best midfielders in the game statistically. Sterling is a multiple time PL winner. This team is top 4 quality - just not getting the results right now. 

Players people are complaining we didn't get now were meh last season, or were meh when they were here - Felix and Dusan. They're just on teams where things are actually clicking. Only difference. 

[Strike 7,493]

10 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

At some point even our hubris board should realise its not the manager. I think we are already getting signs of that- the board backing Poch this week and talking about how they're studying the data which actually shows we're not as bad as people are making it out to be. The ideas from the tactics room have been okay - some strange choices that everyone's pointed out but it is the execution which has been shocking. West Ham, NFO, Villa followed the same pattern- chances not taken and a counter-attack goal out of nowhere reversing the momentum completely.

I don't see how a manager change will fix it. It doesn't seem like the squad is against Poch and are clamoring for a change. Hope we stick this out with Poch and see where it goes because like you said, restarting the process will simply set us back further and dissuade any decent footballer from thinking about a Chelsea move.