The Tuchel Thread

[DH1988 1,346]

First time I've been concerned about his position here. Ultimately players that aren't invested are bringing this down, irrespective of injuries and covid, Lukaku, Ziyech and Mount have been shocking.

[Jase 43,479]

48 minutes ago, Strike said:

Havertz is better than both. He's no ice cold finisher but his movement and control keeps attacks alive and keeps team in control in attacking areas. Time to re-integrate him and play Havertz-Mount-CHO/Puli/Werner/Ziyech like the end of last season.

 

33 minutes ago, Jase said:

If you want to talk about last season, then it's basically Werner, Mount and Havertz as the trio. Minus the finishing, we looked like we were onto something with them. They bring the energy, pace, movement, workrate etc that made us work last season. Have barely seen them play together with the inclusion of Lukaku this season. 

These were the minutes played in all competitions under Tuchel last season:

Mount - 2,112 minutes
Werner - 1,803 minutes
Havertz - 1,131 minutes

Pulisic - 1,311 minutes
Ziyech - 912 minutes
CHO - 908 minutes

Didn't realize that Pulisic had more minutes than Havertz but certainly when it came to the biggest games, Havertz started more with Werner and Mount. 

[Strike 7,474]

15 minutes ago, Jase said:

 

These were the minutes played in all competitions under Tuchel last season:

Mount - 2,112 minutes
Werner - 1,803 minutes
Havertz - 1,131 minutes

Pulisic - 1,311 minutes
Ziyech - 912 minutes
CHO - 908 minutes

Didn't realize that Pulisic had more minutes than Havertz but certainly when it came to the biggest games, Havertz started more with Werner and Mount. 

Have to account for form this season where CHO has shown he is on the same level/better than Ziyech/Pulisic in the positions behind the striker.

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

Have to account for form this season where CHO has shown he is on the same level/better than Ziyech/Pulisic in the positions behind the striker.

Yes but he still wasn't one of the main attackers back then. 

[coolhead23 1,147]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

Havertz is better than both. He's no ice cold finisher but his movement and control keeps attacks alive and keeps team in control in attacking areas. Time to re-integrate him and play Havertz-Mount-CHO/Puli/Werner/Ziyech like the end of last season.

Havertz needs to be started there is argument on that, all for getting back to what worked for us ... despite that Werner needs to be started as he helps the forward players by creating that gap. 

[DDA 9,924]

The downfall has begun since TT has tried  to keep all the attacking players happy along with injuries to our wingbacks.

It's the boards fault for buying endless wing based players and bang average strikers.

The team that beat City in the CL Final should have been the team to maybe add one or two stars into. 

[Blues Forever 1,232]

49 minutes ago, DDA said:

The downfall has begun since TT has tried  to keep all the attacking players happy along with injuries to our wingbacks.

It's the boards fault for buying endless wing based players and bang average strikers.

The team that beat City in the CL Final should have been the team to maybe add one or two stars into. 

Marina is just following our scouting teams recommendation.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Blues Forever

[Tomo 21,751]

The hardest thing to accept right now is the football, it's so poor only a win gets us anything good out of it.

Under Sarri results were so so but there was atleast some intrege due to us transitioning to a possession based team. Under Frank in season 1 pre lockdown the results weren't great but the majority of the games were fun. Drawing to Burnley in November was annoying but the game was so good to watch i wasn't even that pissed.

The football we play now is dreadful, I've been to see our next FA Cup opponents a few times this season when we don't clash with them (live near atm) and they genuinely play more modern and progressive football than we do with Rom as a focal point, a fucking league one side with a squad value of £3.4m, let that sink in.

[Superblue 6,372]

4 minutes ago, Tomo said:

The hardest thing to accept right now is the football, it's so poor only a win gets us anything good out of it.

Under Sarri results were so so but there was atleast some intrege due to us transitioning to a possession based team. Under Frank in season 1 pre lockdown the results weren't great but the majority of the games were fun. Drawing to Burnley in November was annoying but the game was so good to watch i wasn't even that pissed.

The football we play now is dreadful, I've been to see our next FA Cup opponents a few times this season when we don't clash with them (live near atm) and they genuinely play more modern and progressive football than we do with Rom as a focal point, a fucking league one side with a squad value of £3.4m, let that sink in.

There was a period midway through the season though when "Sarriball" was a real hard watch. I think by the end of the season we had evolved from that and were back in an upward trend.

Similar can be said of Lampard. The United result at the start aside, we played some really good football for a bit and then it went completely off the boil and picked back up again before it completely crashed.

Is it as simple as just over the winter? It is a trend that we seem to fall apart around this period year after year.

Or do we need to absorb this and get through the other side to find an improved team, i.e. either Tuchel finds a solution that maximises Lukaku in the team, or come the summer he's sold on and the club as a whole realise that we need a better fit for that position.

I agree at present it's a real hard watch, but I will be extremely disappointed if the club moved on from Tuchel and would like to think he would be given longer than for example Lampard got, to address and arrest this slide. I wonder if Pep had a first season at Chelsea like he did at City if he'd have survived, or if Klopp had a season like he had last year at Liverpool, would the club have decided it was going stale and made a change? At some point the club needs to back someone over a longer haul and trust that when there are issues or periods of poor form, they have the right man in charge to solve that. Tuchel in my opinion is within the top 5 coaches in world football at present and also comes with the added bonus of being seemingly willing to work with the board instead of against them, and overall being a positive representative of the club. If we're going to finally show some loyalty and perseverance with a manager, he has my vote.

[Tomo 21,751]

16 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

There was a period midway through the season though when "Sarriball" was a real hard watch. I think by the end of the season we had evolved from that and were back in an upward trend.

Similar can be said of Lampard. The United result at the start aside, we played some really good football for a bit and then it went completely off the boil and picked back up again before it completely crashed.

Is it as simple as just over the winter? It is a trend that we seem to fall apart around this period year after year.

Or do we need to absorb this and get through the other side to find an improved team, i.e. either Tuchel finds a solution that maximises Lukaku in the team, or come the summer he's sold on and the club as a whole realise that we need a better fit for that position.

I agree at present it's a real hard watch, but I will be extremely disappointed if the club moved on from Tuchel and would like to think he would be given longer than for example Lampard got, to address and arrest this slide. I wonder if Pep had a first season at Chelsea like he did at City if he'd have survived, or if Klopp had a season like he had last year at Liverpool, would the club have decided it was going stale and made a change? At some point the club needs to back someone over a longer haul and trust that when there are issues or periods of poor form, they have the right man in charge to solve that. Tuchel in my opinion is within the top 5 coaches in world football at present and also comes with the added bonus of being seemingly willing to work with the board instead of against them, and overall being a positive representative of the club. If we're going to finally show some loyalty and perseverance with a manager, he has my vote.

It got boring yes but even then there was still the tactical intrege to it, with Lukaku we basically play like Stoke.

The most frustrating thing is style wise it's fixable literally by dropping Lukaku, the Liverpool game and the autumn run quite clearly show that.

That alone won't put us on par with City but if we're really that far behind them then doesn't that give us all the more reason to play more enjoyable football? (Not to mention that style has proved effective in the cups and we still have four of them in play). Lukaku is like a player version of Mourinho, ie given his baggage his presence can only really be justified if it comes with hard results.

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

On 18/01/2022 at 23:27, Jase said:

For all your criticism or even hatred of Werner, he was one of the key players who helped made the system work last season. In fact, him and Mount were basically the two mainstays in Tuchel's selection last season. The remaining spot was open until Havertz grabbed that. The selection was almost consistent. Werner might not a WOW player but he was an important cog in the system. He might not have been the goalscorer that we all want but he contributed(s) a lot in different ways (would even say the same with Havertz at least). Different case altogether with Lukaku who if is not scoring, what does he bring to the team? And he hasn't even registered a single assist this season.

Its not really a hatred. Its just that he is a very very poor elite level footballer. I don’t see how anyone can disagree when he regularly cannot even do the basics ie. passing to his team mates, dribbling without running into people, not being able to stay up after any bit of physical contact. (Sounds a bit like another attacker we have 😂)

Granted all the attackers are having issues of their own/poor seasons (Mounts only one with an acceptable return) but if we want to be successful for a prolonged and sustained period we cannot build a team where Timo is a key component, he clearly isnt good enough. He may have been an important cog in the system last year but lets be fair, did he really impress anyone when TT came in last season for a prolonged period? Or did he really really improve? Granted his movement was a plus but seriously he cannot be one of our front 3 if we are serious on becoming PL champions anytime soon. Havertz and Mount had clear visible improvements under TT but bar a game v Newcastle I think Timo was just as poor as he was before his appointment if I am honest. 

Yes Lukaku is essentially a dud. After a few months of thinking surely TT can make it work with him as our CF I’ve given up hope. The interview has also got rid of any sort of hope I have for him doing well here. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by OneMoSalah

[NikkiCFC 8,286]

20 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Granted all the attackers are having issues of their own/poor seasons (Mounts only one with an acceptable return) 

So annoyed with many people writing this and trying to exclude Mount from other attackers like he is any better.

Acceptable return you mean goals and assist but lets compare them since you slate Werner and praise Mount.

Both scored in 5 different games this season. 

Mount 7g 6a (1pen, 3 corners)

Werner 6g 2a (zero set pieces)

And Mount played 833 more minutes. So it is 9 goal contributions vs 8 from open play with Timo playing less minutes almost equal to 10 games.

Lets add Ziyech because he is also heavily criticized player...

Also scored in 5 different games like them and added 4 assists (1 corner). So 8 goal contributions from open play but played 524 minutes less than Mount.

With Havertz, Pulisic, CHO it is not much difference...

Also Mount scored 6 of his 7 goals against teams from 15th to 20th place on table.

Norwich, WH and Watford are his only very good games this season. 3 in 30 appearances. Maybe 2 or 3 more solid games at top. If you think that is a acceptable return dont know what to say.

August, September, October, November he had just Norwich. Scored in 4 games in the row from 1st to 16th December which was just a purple patch and again nothing since in 10 different games.

This season is longer than 5 months and he delivered in 3 weeks in that period.

I am not trying to praise any of our attackers, would not focus on any of them but we have 7 and all 7 are shit not 6 of them!