Kai Havertz

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

Easy to say in hindsight, back I September people were declaring we sold the wrong fullback and that Lamptey was going to be our new KDB.

Today is literally the first time since Brighton I thought he was genuinely terrible, other times I feel he's looked like a top class player having an off day, obviously that in itself can't keep happening but still...

Again that's something that's all sweet to say in hindsight. Apart from the super cup Pulisic was absolutely anonymous for his first two months at a club (including against League two Grimsby) and he was largely questioned due to that and his not so great goal record at Dortmund.

Lampard did the right thing then and pulled Pulisic out of the firing line for a while, hopefully he does the same here.

I agree with some points and disagree with some. 

All of it is subjective, so let's leave it, and try to focus on one of the questions that I had asked, what is his USP?

One look at hazard, who did not start his Chelsea career with a bang, and you could see world class dribbling, same as pulisic. Mount's industry (among other things), and James' crosses, they had modelled their game around these attributes which were close to world class or actually world class. 

I just don't understand Kai as a player. Just don't see what he is going to base his game around. He has shown nothjng so far for me or Chelsea fans to be excited about. I hope he proves me wrong, but just so underwhelmed by him

[Vesper 28,680]

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

Easy to say in hindsight, back I September people were declaring we sold the wrong fullback and that Lamptey was going to be our new KDB.

anyone saying that is never going to agree with me on transfers I would wager

I never remotely rated Lamptey over Reece

he is too damn tiny, sorry but height matters on occasion and fullbacks often are dealing with vertical leaping play

[Tomo 21,733]

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

I agree with some points and disagree with some. 

All of it is subjective, so let's leave it, and try to focus on one of the questions that I had asked, what is his USP?

One look at hazard, who did not start his Chelsea career with a bang, and you could see world class dribbling, same as pulisic. Mount's industry (among other things), and James' crosses, they had modelled their game around these attributes which were close to world class or actually world class. 

I just don't understand Kai as a player. Just don't see what he is going to base his game around. He has shown nothjng so far for me or Chelsea fans to be excited about. I hope he proves me wrong, but just so underwhelmed by him

The base game as to look at would be what we saw in Sevilla when he was dribbling through breaking the lines and making key passes. To push it further and isolate a single moment I would say his actions before Oli's opener that night.

[Strike 7,212]

2 hours ago, Tomo said:

Today is literally the first time since Brighton I thought he was genuinely terrible, other times I feel he's looked like a top class player having an off day, obviously that in itself can't keep happening but still...

 

This. Nothing so far has suggested to me that the talent is not there. 

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

The base game as to look at would be what we saw in Sevilla when he was dribbling through breaking the lines and making key passes. To push it further and isolate a single moment I would say his actions before Oli's opener that night.

Both teams played their second teams. Ample time on the ball. Seriously feel it's a case of him finding it impossible to find that much time and space in the PL. 

As of this moment, don't see anything remotely "special" in him, just a loooottt of hype. 

[R2D2 368]

People are crazy, he just came back from covid which he probably still hasn't recovered completely from all this while playing in a new league, he is a slow learner, will need half a season to get up to speed and level of PL at least if not whole season, he will undoubtedly succeed just needs time, people jumping the gun on him despite everyone knowing what a tremendous talent he is but defend the jack of all trades like no tomorrow, can't be serious.

[Puliiszola 519]

57 minutes ago, R2D2 said:

People are crazy, he just came back from covid which he probably still hasn't recovered completely from all this while playing in a new league, he is a slow learner, will need half a season to get up to speed and level of PL at least if not whole season, he will undoubtedly succeed just needs time, people jumping the gun on him despite everyone knowing what a tremendous talent he is but defend the jack of all trades like no tomorrow, can't be serious.

Lol.

We lost our best player last summer, we were getting a complete overhaul of an identity. This was a new league for "jack of all trades" mount, and yet was he actually given time or respite by the likes of you despite showing 10 times better talent and putting in better performances than Kai.

Stop acting high and mighty when you specially have acted much worse in ridiculing our own youth player time and again. 

Everyone has a right to ask a question off kai. When you pay 70m, it's not just for a "future" star, it's a fee paid for someone who is already supposedly on a level close to that. So far, Kai has shown NOTHING to be remotely considered as a future superstar or ballondor winner

Also, stop using "new league" as an excuse. It's downright lazy reasoning. His problems are not because he is playing in a new league. It's because he can't do the bloody basics right. Can't pass, can't hold on to the ball or shield it, can't bloody turn with the ball without taking 5 touches and most importantly can't run or give a fuck. None of those things are down to a new league. They are down to poor basics and lazy play.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,912]

1 hour ago, Puliiszola said:

Lol.

We lost our best player last summer, we were getting a complete overhaul of an identity. This was a new league for "jack of all trades" mount, and yet was he actually given time or respite by the likes of you despite showing 10 times better talent and putting in better performances than Kai.

Stop acting high and mighty when you specially have acted much worse in ridiculing our own youth player time and again. 

Everyone has a right to ask a question off kai. When you pay 70m, it's not just for a "future" star, it's a fee paid for someone who is already supposedly on a level close to that. So far, Kai has shown NOTHING to be remotely considered as a future superstar or ballondor winner

Also, stop using "new league" as an excuse. It's downright lazy reasoning. His problems are not because he is playing in a new league. It's because he can't do the bloody basics right. Can't pass, can't hold on to the ball or shield it, can't bloody turn with the ball without taking 5 touches and most importantly can't run or give a fuck. None of those things are down to a new league. They are down to poor basics and lazy play.

The Basics is the key to it. Kai, even when he was playing well(which I suggest has only been 2, maybe 3, times this season) seems to struggle with the basics of play. He does something "Amazing" which makes people think a class player is there, and perhaps there is, but this guy shanks and misplaces basic passes with a consistency you wouldnt expect someone who costs as much as he did to do.

 

The price is an issue. We spent "sure thing" money on potential.

[Special Juan 27,419]

Do not start him against Wolves.

[R2D2 368]

3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Lol.

We lost our best player last summer, we were getting a complete overhaul of an identity. This was a new league for "jack of all trades" mount, and yet was he actually given time or respite by the likes of you despite showing 10 times better talent and putting in better performances than Kai.

Stop acting high and mighty when you specially have acted much worse in ridiculing our own youth player time and again. 

Everyone has a right to ask a question off kai. When you pay 70m, it's not just for a "future" star, it's a fee paid for someone who is already supposedly on a level close to that. So far, Kai has shown NOTHING to be remotely considered as a future superstar or ballondor winner

Also, stop using "new league" as an excuse. It's downright lazy reasoning. His problems are not because he is playing in a new league. It's because he can't do the bloody basics right. Can't pass, can't hold on to the ball or shield it, can't bloody turn with the ball without taking 5 touches and most importantly can't run or give a fuck. None of those things are down to a new league. They are down to poor basics and lazy play.

Sorry to say this but half of your post is pure bollocks. Mount can only dream of having a quarter of Havertz talent let alone 10 times showing better talent.

Why you pretending like Mount is doing the basics right when until Tottenham cup match he looked like absolute shit, misplacing some of the easiest passes in football history and even now lacks any sort of consistency in scoring. Mount is now in form and playing good it's true but if this is the best he can which is being an useful player in our squad who can finally do the basics good while in form than I dread to think how he plays when he loses a bit of form again.

Kai already showed glimpses of what he can do against Sevilla and Barnsley, not much but it's there just needs to settle in and will explode sooner or later. And yes I used Barnsley as an example the same team against which Mount embarrassed himself in.

The price was maybe steep but nowadays you pay for talent and not the final product, sad but true.

As for productivity, this season Mount 1 goal, 5 assists in 18 matches (a joke assist robbed from Tammy included)

Havertz 4 goals, 4 assists in 16 matches

If Havertz is playing out of sorts now and still has better productivity, than rest assured when he hits a bit of form he will look incredible.

I don't mind Lampard doing the same thing as with Pulisic and ease him slowly in, either way I'm not worried about him this season we aren't challenging, build up for future seasons.

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

1 hour ago, R2D2 said:

Mount 1 goal, 5 assists in 18 matches (a joke assist robbed from Tammy included)

Havertz 4 goals, 4 assists in 16 matches

I agree with first part of your post but this is not true. You took this from Transfermarkt. They count winning penalties (Havertz-Palace) and deflected shots (Mount-WBA) as assists.

Also I would not take seriously that game against Championship side plus it has to be said that Mount has two corner assists.

So for me Havertz has 1 goal and 3 assists this season and Mount 1 goal and 3 assist (2 corners). And majority came against shit sides. Kovacic stats are even worst...

FFS Barkley scored against Liverpool, Leicester and assisted against Arsenal. Much better player in the final 3rd than what we have from all midfielders. 

Gallagher has the same number of goals in the league as our 6 midfielders (not counting Jorginho penalties). Is it too much to expect more from them in the final 3rd?

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, R2D2 said:

Sorry to say this but half of your post is pure bollocks. Mount can only dream of having a quarter of Havertz talent let alone 10 times showing better talent.

Why you pretending like Mount is doing the basics right when until Tottenham cup match he looked like absolute shit, misplacing some of the easiest passes in football history and even now lacks any sort of consistency in scoring. Mount is now in form and playing good it's true but if this is the best he can which is being an useful player in our squad who can finally do the basics good while in form than I dread to think how he plays when he loses a bit of form again.

Kai already showed glimpses of what he can do against Sevilla and Barnsley, not much but it's there just needs to settle in and will explode sooner or later. And yes I used Barnsley as an example the same team against which Mount embarrassed himself in.

The price was maybe steep but nowadays you pay for talent and not the final product, sad but true.

As for productivity, this season Mount 1 goal, 5 assists in 18 matches (a joke assist robbed from Tammy included)

Havertz 4 goals, 4 assists in 16 matches

If Havertz is playing out of sorts now and still has better productivity, than rest assured when he hits a bit of form he will look incredible.

I don't mind Lampard doing the same thing as with Pulisic and ease him slowly in, either way I'm not worried about him this season we aren't challenging, build up for future seasons.

Are you an idiot or a troll.

Understand the difference between mount and Kai. Mount is a 8, Kai is a 10. Kai plays far more advanced than mount. Comparing there goals and assists to somehow use as a yardstick of comparision is LOL. Specially when out 4 of his goals, 3 came against Barnsley.

And if you think, mount has shown "no quality" then you are just a blind hater. And I refuse to give the likes of you the time of the day, who won't be able to understand quality if it hit you in the face. 

But nice try. Next we will have, Kai has been better than kante, look at their goals and assists. Fucking embarrassing. 

And let me be clear here. I don't dislike Kai. I hope he turns out to be the player everyone wants him to be and EXPECTS him to be, which is totally different to you and the anti mount brigade who are either stupid or just blind with hate. What's worse is "fans" like you would be happier if we flop and mount does not play well, than us winning with mount putting a great performance after another the way he has been doing. Anyways, I don't think fans should not question performances specially when the performances lack heart and desire. There is one thing to be struggling and to be out of form, and totally different to give your all and put it all on the field. Kai is not even doing the latter. One good performance against Barnsley (lol) or a second string Sevilla simply is not enough to justify him and his "little steep" fee. 

[Puliiszola 519]

2 hours ago, Sir Mikel OBE said:

The Basics is the key to it. Kai, even when he was playing well(which I suggest has only been 2, maybe 3, times this season) seems to struggle with the basics of play. He does something "Amazing" which makes people think a class player is there, and perhaps there is, but this guy shanks and misplaces basic passes with a consistency you wouldnt expect someone who costs as much as he did to do.

 

The price is an issue. We spent "sure thing" money on potential.

Exactly this.

And I am so confused with people comparing it to pulisic (actual settling issues), or mount or James. 

Neither of those players had an issue with the BASICS of the game. Passing (like you pointed out) is one aspect, ball shielding is abysmal. How can someone worth 70m and world class potential, not have the basic ball shielding ability. I played college level and still could do it better. And don't even get me started on his turning with the ball. I mean just to turn his body, he has a bigger span than a boeing 747. These are not "settling issues", these are basic footballing skills that if one of our own youth player had missing, he would be abused consistently and ridiculed to the max. 

I hope he improves all of this and proves me wrong, but honestly, I am so underwhelmed by him. What's worse is kepa, kai, Morata, Torres these are our top 4 transfers by fees, and I simply don't want him to end up like the other 3 on that list. 

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Mount is a 8, Kai is a 10. Kai plays far more advanced than mount. Comparing there goals and assists to somehow use as a yardstick of comparision is LOL. 

When we played 4-2-3-1 Mount played as winger or AM. Havertz also. Now when we play 4-3-3 they are both playing number 8 unless rare winger performance like Kai yesterday. So this season Kai does not play advanced.

[Tomo 21,733]

48 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

I agree with first part of your post but this is not true. You took this from Transfermarkt. They count winning penalties (Havertz-Palace) and deflected shots (Mount-WBA) as assists.

Also I would not take seriously that game against Championship side plus it has to be said that Mount has two corner assists.

Hat tricks are great achievements regardless of the opposition.

It's one more than Ryan Giggs and David Beckham ever got and they had many games against teams of the level or lower to Barnsley.

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

Btw Leverkusen is doing very well this season without him. Top of the table in Bundesliga. 15 points and 1st place in EL.

[Jase 43,479]

7 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Btw Leverkusen is doing very well this season without him. Top of the table in Bundesliga. 15 points and 1st place in EL.

They won't last long up there...

[bigbluewillie 1,858]

16 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Lol.

We lost our best player last summer, we were getting a complete overhaul of an identity. This was a new league for "jack of all trades" mount, and yet was he actually given time or respite by the likes of you despite showing 10 times better talent and putting in better performances than Kai.

Stop acting high and mighty when you specially have acted much worse in ridiculing our own youth player time and again. 

Everyone has a right to ask a question off kai. When you pay 70m, it's not just for a "future" star, it's a fee paid for someone who is already supposedly on a level close to that. So far, Kai has shown NOTHING to be remotely considered as a future superstar or ballondor winner

Also, stop using "new league" as an excuse. It's downright lazy reasoning. His problems are not because he is playing in a new league. It's because he can't do the bloody basics right. Can't pass, can't hold on to the ball or shield it, can't bloody turn with the ball without taking 5 touches and most importantly can't run or give a fuck. None of those things are down to a new league. They are down to poor basics and lazy play.

Read this, from BBC

i'll go along with this instead of your assessment.

Chelsea manager Frank Lampard says people must be patient with £71m signing Kai Havertz.

The Germany international was taken off after 68 minutes of the 1-0 defeat at Everton on Saturday, the fourth successive game he has been substituted.

But Lampard defended the 21-year-old midfielder.

"In the modern day there is going to be criticism for every player of every club who loses a game," he said.

"We should be patient with Havertz from the Chelsea end because he is a top-quality talent who has come into this league.

"He can play in any position across the front three and he has played on the right countless times before he played for Chelsea.

"People who want to jump on to criticise [should] just wait and give a young player time. I know the player that Kai Havertz is going to be."

Since joining from Bundesliga side Bayer Leverkusen in the summer, Havertz has scored three times in 17 appearances - netting a hat-trick against Barnsley in the Carabao Cup.

Speaking to Football Focus at the weekend he said that contracting Covid-19 in November had hit him "very hard" but said he is now "very fit again".

Lampard said the aftermath of Saturday's defeat at Goodison Park will be "a challenge for the players".

"In the Premier League you are going to lose games and it is important to put perspective on it," he said.