Timo Werner

[MoroccanBlue 5,314]

10 hours ago, LAM09 said:

If something doesn't change in the next few months, we have let him go when possible. 

Think it's a loss cause at this rate. That miss against United perfectly summed up his time with us. There will not be much space in this league so you will need to be good on the ball to succeed. 

 

[LAM09 6,762]

10 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Think it's a loss cause at this rate. That miss against United perfectly summed up his time with us. There will not be much space in this league so you will need to be good on the ball to succeed. 

 

It's looking that way. Our luck or lack of when it comes to CF's is something else.

[Vesper 28,934]

17 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I will never understand why  a self reporting Chelsea fan wants to talk about a Chelsea player in this way. Whenever I feel a Chelsea player isn't good enough that's a cause for disappointment, not anger. If there is any anger it is only ever towards the person who made the recruitment decision, not the player.

yes, I am becoming the same

I am especially puzzled at the hate Lukaku gets

Ziyech has massively impressed me with his better attitude lately

[Dan Lee 47]

4 hours ago, Vesper said:

yes, I am becoming the same

I am especially puzzled at the hate Lukaku gets

Ziyech has massively impressed me with his better attitude lately

Agreed. I don't come here often because of the negativity. I am not sure whether people are real fans. 

[King Kante 1,499]

I don't hate Lukaku, but I hate how we went out and brought him/how a number of people were telling all and sundry that he has developed in Italy and was a new player. That clearly wasn't the case (I suspect they got carried away by looking at stats and some YouTube videos) and in fact he was the same limited player as he was at Utd. 

For me personally, the Lukaku transfer had all the hallmarks of a Summer 2017/Kepa transfer i.e. an average player, who probably won't even fit the clubs squad profile being brought for a massive fee/wage that we will be lumbered with for years' as no one else will take him on when he fails.

As I said, I don't hate him personally, however I just don't want him in the side as we are a better team without him. He does have his uses against the bottom feeders in the league, but apart from that we have no need for him.

[Superblue 6,370]

26 minutes ago, King Kante said:

I don't hate Lukaku, but I hate how we went out and brought him/how a number of people were telling all and sundry that he has developed in Italy and was a new player. That clearly wasn't the case (I suspect they got carried away by looking at stats and some YouTube videos) and in fact he was the same limited player as he was at Utd. 

For me personally, the Lukaku transfer had all the hallmarks of a Summer 2017/Kepa transfer i.e. an average player, who probably won't even fit the clubs squad profile being brought for a massive fee/wage that we will be lumbered with for years' as no one else will take him on when he fails.

As I said, I don't hate him personally, however I just don't want him in the side as we are a better team without him. He does have his uses against the bottom feeders in the league, but apart from that we have no need for him.

Lukaku will never fall into the Kepa category. I don't think there will ever be a worse signing when you break the world record for a keeper and he turns out to be a bust. 

At least with outfield players if things don't turn out how you'd hope they can still play a role within the squad. A second choice keeper, barring injuries, will be lucky to play half a dozen games a season.

I'm definitely not giving up on Lukaku though. I think he needs to adapt to the way we play compared to how Conte did at Inter. It might be a back 3 but that's where the comparisons stop between Tuchel and Conte. However I believe Tuchel will get really good mileage out of Lukaku. There's few players who haven't benefited from him since he's been here. Of course he has deficiencies to his game but he will score goals and if we're challenging for the title this season his presence up top could be the difference between 3 points and 1 point in some games.

[ZAPHOD2319 4,506]

I could be very wrong, I see how clinical Lukaku can be, and I see someone that could be successful in the PL if he increases his movement without the ball. Part of it too is we do not have players that get many though balls in to attacking players in the final third. I see Werner and his work rate off the ball is fantastic but he is not clinical in front of goal. I hope they both come good, I just think Lukaku has the better skill set for this league.

[Magic Lamps 11,664]

Lukaku looked like a changed player in Serie a because his athletic advantage was so much bigger there. He literally waltzed through entire teams with his power and pace which is much harder here. Also inter played with him as focal point. We play a lot less direct, more methodical. We either need to change that to use  him better or he needs to adapt. Still it was a crazy price to pay  for a 28 yo. But blame the board for this not the player. He is not worldclass striker but appears like a good lad. Most of the above also goes for Timo. The difference is that Werner additionally has mental problems. Ideally we should not have bought either but at times you have to take a gamble. 

[King Kante 1,499]

3 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Lukaku will never fall into the Kepa category. I don't think there will ever be a worse signing when you break the world record for a keeper and he turns out to be a bust. 

At least with outfield players if things don't turn out how you'd hope they can still play a role within the squad. A second choice keeper, barring injuries, will be lucky to play half a dozen games a season.

I'm definitely not giving up on Lukaku though. I think he needs to adapt to the way we play compared to how Conte did at Inter. It might be a back 3 but that's where the comparisons stop between Tuchel and Conte. However I believe Tuchel will get really good mileage out of Lukaku. There's few players who haven't benefited from him since he's been here. Of course he has deficiencies to his game but he will score goals and if we're challenging for the title this season his presence up top could be the difference between 3 points and 1 point in some games.

Yeah, I wasn't saying that he was going to be as bad as Kepa, the point I was trying to make was during 2017-2018 we brought a lot of players who were bad fits for the league/squad and thus became square pegs pretty quickly.

As @Magic Lampssays, it was pretty clear when in Italy he was doing well because of his physical advantages and the lower level there. This is also why he continued to underperform in the CL and would still go missing for Belgium when it mattered. 

For me, thinking he is going to adapt his game now is pretty futile. What we're seeing at the moment is the same sort of performances as he was putting in Utd l. Additionally, if you actually compare him to other CF's in Italy such as; Immobile, Zapata, Ibra, Murial etc, he didn't outperform any of them over his two year period on a minute to minute basis, whilst Giroud is currently doing the same sort of job he was on a minute to minute basis.

For me, he is simply a CF who is of that quality level (Ibra at 38-40; not prime obviously) and it was absolute madness going for him as it means we now have to bench him in important games or completely rip up our formation and style to play to his strengths to try and get the best out of him.

This essentially was why I was completely against his signing as where people saw a plug and play world class CF, I saw the same player (a good CF, but technically limited player) who would need the system here adapted to get the best out of him, which is detrimental for the other players' in the squad. This also goes double as, because he was so expensive, we cannot just write him off as a bad signing; this also happened with Kepa where he continued to play long after he should've done in the hope it could work. 

As I said, this was all fairly obvious, so how we end up in this position is incredibly frustrating as it is not as if we haven't been here before with buying players who aren't good fits for us. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,314]

To be honest he is now entering Morata/Torres territory with regards to his positioning in the box. Just no IQ what so ever. 

[Tomo 21,733]

22 hours ago, Dan Lee said:

Agreed. I don't come here often because of the negativity. I am not sure whether people are real fans. 

Real fans want what's best for the club not a replaceable employee who fucked off at the first sign of trouble at previous clubs which includes out very selves.

On another note is it me or is it always the most expensive players that attract people acting almost as lawyers for them? You get some so quick to jump to the defense of the likes of Lukaku and Kepa but I can't remember similar dedication to defend say Kalou and Turnbull. It seems the more someone costs the less expectations they get held to.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Tomo

[Jype 6,398]

3 hours ago, Tomo said:

On another note is it me or is it always the most expensive players that attract people acting almost as lawyers for them? You get some so quick to jump to the defense of the likes of Lukaku and Kepa but I can't remember similar dedication to defend say Kalou and Turnbull. It seems the more someone costs the less expectations they get held to.

I would guess it's because generally speaking the more expensive players are usually the ones who have had better careers / performances elsewhere before joining the club and that makes it "easier" for many people to grant them that little bit of extra credit in the bank to show they can still make it even if they struggle. On the other hand someone who's never shown anything special is "easier" to write off if they continue to be bad.

Obviously for someone like Lukaku the expectations should be sky high due to the transfer fee and wages he's on, but at the same time I think it's ridiculous to write him off already having played only ~10 games, but many people wrote him off even before he signed so I'm not surprised at all. I've seen enough from Lukaku to believe he'll come good with a little bit of time on the training ground to figure out how to get on the same wavelength with his team-mates and get to know what it is the manager want from him, but of course he needs to start performing soon to escape larger criticism. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,314]

Matt Law indicated on the London is Blue podcast he could potentially leave in the summer. Dortmund or Bayern main suitors. Ruled out a move to United as he doesn't expect Werner to stay in England. 

[Pizy 18,393]

I’m still at a complete loss of words at how poor he has been since moving here. Of all the striker duds we’ve signed in the last decade, Werner’s failure is the most difficult to explain. Torres and Falcao were already damaged goods. Morata was never good enough to be the main striker for a top club. Diego Costa was a total nutcase.

Werner was coming off of two great seasons in Germany (and a world class final season there) and has the perfect skill set that should have translated well into the PL. Awesome pace, loves running the channels, was one of the best in Europe against high defensive lines, and most important of all he was a lethal finisher who scored from everywhere.

How does a player go from all that to what we’ve seen? I sadly do think it isn’t looking likely that he’ll be here much longer. What sucks is that I think wherever he moves he’ll regain form and look good again. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,314]

31 minutes ago, Pizy said:

I’m still at a complete loss of words at how poor he has been since moving here. Of all the striker duds we’ve signed in the last decade, Werner’s failure is the most difficult to explain. Torres and Falcao were already damaged goods. Morata was never good enough to be the main striker for a top club. Diego Costa was a total nutcase.

Werner was coming off of two great seasons in Germany (and a world class final season there) and has the perfect skill set that should have translated well into the PL. Awesome pace, loves running the channels, was one of the best in Europe against high defensive lines, and most important of all he was a lethal finisher who scored from everywhere.

How does a player go from all that to what we’ve seen? I sadly do think it isn’t looking likely that he’ll be here much longer. What sucks is that I think wherever he moves he’ll regain form and look good again. 

We were warned by Bundesliga fans that Werner thrives in a counter attacking set up and that he was wasteful. 

I think I'm most shocked of his horrid footballing IQ in the final third. 

[Tomo 21,733]

5 hours ago, Jype said:

I would guess it's because generally speaking the more expensive players are usually the ones who have had better careers / performances elsewhere before joining the club and that makes it "easier" for many people to grant them that little bit of extra credit in the bank to show they can still make it even if they struggle. On the other hand someone who's never shown anything special is "easier" to write off if they continue to be bad.

Obviously for someone like Lukaku the expectations should be sky high due to the transfer fee and wages he's on, but at the same time I think it's ridiculous to write him off already having played only ~10 games, but many people wrote him off even before he signed so I'm not surprised at all. I've seen enough from Lukaku to believe he'll come good with a little bit of time on the training ground to figure out how to get on the same wavelength with his team-mates and get to know what it is the manager want from him, but of course he needs to start performing soon to escape larger criticism. 

Lukaku is largely getting critisised because he is being played unconditionally when fit and not only is his performances not justifying such an untouchable role his inclusion is totally compromising a system that won us the UCL and almost every single big game.

If he was rotated more adequetely and saved for when a tactical situation required him I doubt they'll be many complaints but I'm personally finding it hugely frustrating seeing such a promising/successful system being ripped up to accommodate him and for such an adjustment he needs to be offering both the performances and numbers to justify such and he simply isn't.

[MoroccanBlue 5,314]

16 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Lukaku is largely getting critisised because he is being played unconditionally when fit and not only is his performances not justifying such an untouchable role his inclusion is totally compromising a system that won us the UCL and almost every single big game.

If he was rotated more adequetely and saved for when a tactical situation required him I doubt they'll be many complaints but I'm personally finding it hugely frustrating seeing such a promising/successful system being ripped up to accommodate him and for such an adjustment he needs to be offering both the performances and numbers to justify such and he simply isn't.

I think he could do a job as a starter but not as our focal point. As you alluded to and many others (including myself) I'd like us to continue the false 9 with Lukaku as the RF/RW. 

[Jype 6,398]

13 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Lukaku is largely getting critisised because he is being played unconditionally when fit and not only is his performances not justifying such an untouchable role his inclusion is totally compromising a system that won us the UCL and almost every single big game.

If he was rotated more adequetely and saved for when a tactical situation required him I doubt they'll be many complaints but I'm personally finding it hugely frustrating seeing such a promising/successful system being ripped up to accommodate him and for such an adjustment he needs to be offering both the performances and numbers to justify such and he simply isn't.

I think it's too early to make such claims.

Lukaku started off with a good scoring record (4 goals in his first 4 games for the club) which in my opinion definitely justified picking him for the next few matches as well. In hindsight he might not have been the best option for some of them (especially City) but at the time his selection was definitely made on merit and not because he cost so much and was somehow 'untouchable' because of the price tag.

Then after a few bad games he got injured so we'll never know if he'd have continued starting games regardless of opponent and form. Tuchel is a smart man and I trust him not to pick Lukaku for certain games forever if he doesn't perform in them.