closed Man Utd 4-0 Chelsea

[Superblue 6,331]

2 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

Now that the dust has settled what happened was this:
We were the better side up to the point they scored their second goal - United were living on scrapes.
But the Zouma flop in the first half had already made things diffcult for us.
Then they make it 2-0.
That was it - game over and it can happen any time, any place if you are unlucky.

The thing to do under such circumstances is don't give up -like we did.
You must n't drop the white towel.
Ok, let it stay 2-0, the final result.

But we behaved like amateur side, abandoned positions, everyone panicked.
We awarded a 4-0 victory to Man. United, a team that will barely make it to the Europa cup of the next year.

The mistakes for the first goal were very poor and the second goal was not well defended either, particularly as United created it from a bad pass on a counter.

But conceding the third goal so quickly was desperately naive and our play from there was also overall poor. That is where some of this team will need to learn. Like you said that 2-0 can happen, but even then you stay in the game and keep it tight for the next 10-15 minutes. Then once you get to the last 10-15 minutes you push again because a late goal with a few minutes to go suddenly puts the doubts on United and anything can happen. But conceding again straight away completely killed the game and the last half hour from our perspective showed that.

[communicate 2,703]

1 hour ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Separate point but anybody watching the Sky Sports coverage over here in the UK today will have experienced the punditry of Jose Mourinho.

I personally think it's a big negative for Sky Sports bringing him in. He's still clearly salty that at present nobody wants to touch him and whilst he has always been arrogant, that arrogance over time has evolved from cheeky to bitter, almost having to justify that he's still a good manager. I don't need to be switching on Sky Sports to watch any more self promotion having slept through Jamie Redknapp's shite punditry for what feels like decades.

 

Why? I actually like "recent" manager turn pundit. 

Jose basically pointed our problem. Defensive, organization, being compact and space between the line. 

He is right. That is our problem, our pressing intensity was very2 good, organization wise need work. 

I think either here or somewhere somebody pointed out that Lampard Derby problem was their space between the line was too big. I thought it was solely due to personel but it turn out not completely. 

This is crucial problem, you can forget about being a good team without being a good defensive team. 

For all the praise of attackin football that pep and klopp received, both are actually pretty defensive minded. 

 

[Superblue 6,331]

1 minute ago, communicate said:

Why? I actually like "recent" manager turn pundit. 

Jose basically pointed our problem. Defensive, organization, being compact and space between the line. 

He is right. That is our problem, our pressing intensity was very2 good, organization wise need work. 

I think either here or somewhere somebody pointed out that Lampard Derby problem was their space between the line was too big. I thought it was solely due to personel but it turn out not completely. 

This is crucial problem, you can forget about being a good team without being a good defensive team. 

For all the praise of attackin football that pep and klopp received, both are actually pretty defensive minded. 

 

The reasons I pointed out. I'm not debating over some of the things he said regarding our defensive structure and they are serious flaws that Lampard needs to address but there's always an agenda with him.

The Luke Shaw comment really wound me up and I couldn't care less about Luke Shaw. If anything it shows just how out of tune Mourinho is with the ability to man manage this new generation of players. 

If they had got Mourinho at the end of his first Chelsea spell he would have been so energetic and witty, but now he comes across old, boring and uninspiring. And to think a month or two with Souness could make him even worse!

[Dazzy_Vance 454]

Perspective: we didn’t start the game with six players who will arguably be starters for us this season (Kante, Pulisic, CHO, RLC, James & Rudiger) and it was our first game under Frank.

I also think we outplayed them for the most part. Yes, we turned to absolute sh*t late in the game but we obviously went for the kill once we went down a couple and it made us vulnerable on the counter. 1-2 would’ve been a fair scoreline at half time. I have no doubt had we of scored, we would’ve been more conservative in the second half.

Lots of ifs and would’ves, I know, but that’s how it is. Lots to work on, but also some good signs moving forward. It’s a free hit this season, so lessen the expectations and enjoy the ride.

[BigMabz 61]

3 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Separate point but anybody watching the Sky Sports coverage over here in the UK today will have experienced the punditry of Jose Mourinho.

I personally think it's a big negative for Sky Sports bringing him in. He's still clearly salty that at present nobody wants to touch him and whilst he has always been arrogant, that arrogance over time has evolved from cheeky to bitter, almost having to justify that he's still a good manager. I don't need to be switching on Sky Sports to watch any more self promotion having slept through Jamie Redknapp's shite punditry for what feels like decades.

I read an article earlier in the week where he suggested Lampard had no problems because we needed a striker and we had Tammy Abraham to bring in, and then criticises the decision to play him today. 

The dig at Luke Shaw at half time too was utterly pathetic and 'Uncle Rafa' was childish. It's embarrassing that the likes of Souness, Neville and Carragher don't have the balls to go against anything he says.

I'll always appreciate what he did at Chelsea but it doesn't stop him being an extremely unlikable prick.

Salty? Have you not watched Jose over the past few years? Its easy to perceive him as salty because he doesn't smile and says some questionable things at times. But I thought his punditry was refreshing. I appreciated the break down of the principles and tactics as far as working in blocks. Thought that was quality.

The Uncle Rafa comment was hilarious. These types of shows need a little humor in them. To me, him calling out Rafa that way is sign of respect for the manager. I don't think youll ever hear Jose explicitly praising another manager, but he clearly respected Rafa's touchline communication. 

Pundits have become more opinionated than ever because thats what they are trained to do at times. "Have an opinion and get people talking, get the fans discussing your comments". Creates more viewers and more interest in the game. 

[coolhead23 1,146]

Would be honest, the 4-0 scoreline hurts specially when it happened in that 5-10 mins time frame. But first competitive game of the season, there are positives and there are lot of learnings. As someone pointed in the earlier post, we behaved like amateurs at time which contributed to the scoreline which is bang on.

Defense is a worry, has been even in pre-season. Like to see how Lampard start addressing this. Only problem is that we play another game in the next 2 days against Liverpool and that could a similar scoreline. 

Liked the fact that Lampard was not worried to pitch youngsters in a big away game ... which tells that Lampard could be open to taking risk as per the situation. 

Fingers crossed for the next few games to see how we sort the defense. 

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

I feel this was a game where the scoreline doesn't tell the whole story. As much as we shouldn't make long-term conclusions based on one game, United shouldn't be too confident going forward. I don't see them finishing top four this season. We're very much into the pre-season fitness and timeframe, still. Time will tell, but I do feel very positive looking at that youthful-energy in that Chelsea team.

I really do think we played alright. What if we didn't concede a penalty? What if TA's and Emerson's strike didn't hit the woodwork? What if we didn't have as many game-changing injuries? What if...? Very positive 45...60 minutes. Professional press conferences. Defence needs sorting out but other than that lots of promising young players in Chelsea's hands right now. It's unheard of to get a chance like this in top football, let alone England. No time to sulk. Work's just starting.

[killer1257 3,282]

6 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Separate point but anybody watching the Sky Sports coverage over here in the UK today will have experienced the punditry of Jose Mourinho.

I personally think it's a big negative for Sky Sports bringing him in. He's still clearly salty that at present nobody wants to touch him and whilst he has always been arrogant, that arrogance over time has evolved from cheeky to bitter, almost having to justify that he's still a good manager. I don't need to be switching on Sky Sports to watch any more self promotion having slept through Jamie Redknapp's shite punditry for what feels like decades.

I read an article earlier in the week where he suggested Lampard had no problems because we needed a striker and we had Tammy Abraham to bring in, and then criticises the decision to play him today. 

The dig at Luke Shaw at half time too was utterly pathetic and 'Uncle Rafa' was childish. It's embarrassing that the likes of Souness, Neville and Carragher don't have the balls to go against anything he says.

I'll always appreciate what he did at Chelsea but it doesn't stop him being an extremely unlikable prick.

The funny thing is that I can´t see him talking about Zouma. Why is that? Zouma played horribly, but Mou seems to like him...

[Jase 43,479]

7 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Separate point but anybody watching the Sky Sports coverage over here in the UK today will have experienced the punditry of Jose Mourinho.

I personally think it's a big negative for Sky Sports bringing him in. He's still clearly salty that at present nobody wants to touch him and whilst he has always been arrogant, that arrogance over time has evolved from cheeky to bitter, almost having to justify that he's still a good manager. I don't need to be switching on Sky Sports to watch any more self promotion having slept through Jamie Redknapp's shite punditry for what feels like decades.

I read an article earlier in the week where he suggested Lampard had no problems because we needed a striker and we had Tammy Abraham to bring in, and then criticises the decision to play him today. 

The dig at Luke Shaw at half time too was utterly pathetic and 'Uncle Rafa' was childish. It's embarrassing that the likes of Souness, Neville and Carragher don't have the balls to go against anything he says.

I'll always appreciate what he did at Chelsea but it doesn't stop him being an extremely unlikable prick.

Mourinho was definitely right about our poor defensive organization and lack of coherent pressing (I seriously hope Lampard sorts this out soon, because this issue has been apparent since pre-season) but he was definitely talking BS about Lampard playing youth in the match. I mean, it's so on the brand of Mourinho to talk down youth players and not criticize experience. We had only 3 players who you would consider young or inexperience at Premier League level in the game - Mount, Abraham and Pulisic. There were still 8-9 experienced players out there, who given all their experience let the team down more by not leading the team and making stupid mistakes defensively. Would putting out an XI with all experienced players have made the difference? We have suffered bad, heavy losses with an experienced lineup - Bournemouth and Man City away last season are prime examples. It's not as if Lampard had 8 youth players out there and only 3 experienced fellas! The defeat came down to more on bad mistakes, from the experienced players no less, than Lampard playing the young players. It's so easy to criticize someone for playing the youth when results go wrong. Only have to look at what Klopp and Pochettino have done. They played them (e.g. Dele Alli, Trent Alexander Arnold) through thick and thin and are reaping the rewards right now.

[ulsterchelsea 3,213]

Personally I ain't to annoyed about this result. I know it's shite to lose to them lot and especially 4 nil conjuring up bad memories of that fa cup final. But truth be told I was pretty happy with what I seen yesterday or more importantly what I think will come. We had more possession, we had more chances, we had more touches and passes. Thought mount was very good for the most part, thought Tammy did well enough, thought jorginho (who I was extremely critical of last season) played really well as did kovacic. If Tammy's effort goes in early doors I think that could have been a different game. Same with Emerson. My only complaint is zouma! I thought in pre season he looked all over the place and he continued it yesterday. Azpi looks a bit spent too unfortunately. Rudi can't come back soon enough. But can't help but feel excited, mason and Tammy yesterday, rubes, Reece James and Callum coming back! Would love to see it. Think all of them together could bring a lot energy to the team.Add to that Kante almost back and Willian nearly there too. Really can't be that disheartened. 

[ulsterchelsea 3,213]

8 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Separate point but anybody watching the Sky Sports coverage over here in the UK today will have experienced the punditry of Jose Mourinho.

I personally think it's a big negative for Sky Sports bringing him in. He's still clearly salty that at present nobody wants to touch him and whilst he has always been arrogant, that arrogance over time has evolved from cheeky to bitter, almost having to justify that he's still a good manager. I don't need to be switching on Sky Sports to watch any more self promotion having slept through Jamie Redknapp's shite punditry for what feels like decades.

I read an article earlier in the week where he suggested Lampard had no problems because we needed a striker and we had Tammy Abraham to bring in, and then criticises the decision to play him today. 

The dig at Luke Shaw at half time too was utterly pathetic and 'Uncle Rafa' was childish. It's embarrassing that the likes of Souness, Neville and Carragher don't have the balls to go against anything he says.

I'll always appreciate what he did at Chelsea but it doesn't stop him being an extremely unlikable prick.

He's a twat mate. Truly dislike him now even after what her did for us. The mount, Christensen and Tammy comments were pathetic and to suggest that an unfit Kante and Willian could have started was nothing short of farcical

[Superblue 6,331]

Heard Sam Allardyce on the radio this morning and whilst I'm not his biggest fan, I agree with him that Chelsea were very naive when we went 2-0 down. We opened up way too quickly and started trying to chase the game.

I alluded to this very point in a post yesterday but there has to be a lesson learned there for Lampard and the players that in a situation like that, the team needs to regroup and stay compact for 10-15 minutes. 

2-0 is not a game clinching scoreline and all it would have taken would have been a goal a few minutes from time to possibly grab a point. We let United take the game away from us completely in the last half hour and that isn't just tactical or individual mistakes, that's about having the right mentality (and experience after games like yesterday) to know when to dig in, not take risks and contain for a few minutes to stem any flow of momentum the opposition are building up.

[Atomiswave 6,072]

14 hours ago, Hutcho said:

 

 

 

Maybe the worst squad currently but one of the most promising going forwards for years.

Pulisic 20
Mount 20
RLC 23
CHO 18
Etc etc

Developing youth takes time. Sure this season may be rough at times but we could be better for it in the long term. I've waited years for someone to give some our players with great potential a chance and now we have so let's see what happens

 

Ohh I agree in that regard.....our youth look good and will only get better. Shame the board cant stack that on top of good additions to level us up though.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,776]

18 hours ago, Antonio8 said:

and who's gonna play as CB? 

This reminds me of the fate of Dujon Sterling.

When Dujon broke into the U18 side as a right back he was an immediate success. Great pace and power allied to solid defending translated into goals, assists and many MoM displays. Sadly, for Dujon, a better RB soon emerged at that level and quickly claimed the first choice label. There was a silver lining for Dujon however, because that RB also turned out to be the best CB in the 18's. This meant Duge sometimes* got games at RB anyway because Reece James was used at CB instead.

Our best CB pairing is Rudi and Reece. The problem for Frank is that Reece is also our best RB. SFL will have to find a short term solution, but the long term answer probably lays with the market.

 

*Only sometimes because the tricky, and lighting fast, Tariq Lamptey also saw action at RB for that U18 generation.

[Superblue 6,331]

17 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

This reminds me of the fate of Dujon Sterling.

When Dujon broke into the U18 side as a right back he was an immediate success. Great pace and power allied to solid defending translated into goals, assists and many MoM displays. Sadly, for Dujon, a better RB soon emerged at that level and quickly claimed the first choice label. There was a silver lining for Dujon however, because that RB also turned out to be the best CB in the 18's. This meant Duge sometimes* got games at RB anyway because Reece James was used at CB instead.

Our best CB pairing is Rudi and Reece. The problem for Frank is that Reece is also our best RB. SFL will have to find a short term solution, but the long term answer probably lays with the market.

*Only sometimes because the tricky, and lighting fast, Tariq Lamptey also saw action at RB for that U18 generation.

At least short term (because the market isn't available most likely until next summer) which do you think is the best option - Reece at right back and more than likely Christensen with Rudiger (unless you think there is a better option than Christensen), or Azpi at right and Reece with Rudiger?

[OhForAGreavsie 5,776]

29 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

At least short term (because the market isn't available most likely until next summer) which do you think is the best option - Reece at right back and more than likely Christensen with Rudiger (unless you think there is a better option than Christensen), or Azpi at right and Reece with Rudiger?

I would go with Reece at right back because Andreas and, perhaps Azpi, are better alternative CBs than anyone is as an alternative RB if Reece is played in the middle. I don't think any of us had many complaints with Dave's performance at CB in a three. How he'd fare in a four is open for debate however. Maybe we need a Jose solution. Dave at RB with orders to stay home, and Reece at CB.

Dave isn't a premium attacking full back anyway, and by staying home he gives protection against the counterattack which we've been struggling with since the start of preseason. Meanwhile Reece at CB looks like a swings and roundabouts situation to me. We gain from his range of passing but lose because he won't often get into high positions where he can deliver crosses. A significant loss because he's the best crosser of the ball in the club.

Even I realise that I may be going a bit overboard about an untried 19-year-old. If anyone leveled that accusation at me I'd have to say it's a reasonable point of view. All I can offer in my defence is that I genuinely believe what I'm saying about the lad.

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Heard Sam Allardyce on the radio this morning and whilst I'm not his biggest fan, I agree with him that Chelsea were very naive when we went 2-0 down. We opened up way too quickly and started trying to chase the game.

I alluded to this very point in a post yesterday but there has to be a lesson learned there for Lampard and the players that in a situation like that, the team needs to regroup and stay compact for 10-15 minutes. 

2-0 is not a game clinching scoreline and all it would have taken would have been a goal a few minutes from time to possibly grab a point. We let United take the game away from us completely in the last half hour and that isn't just tactical or individual mistakes, that's about having the right mentality (and experience after games like yesterday) to know when to dig in, not take risks and contain for a few minutes to stem any flow of momentum the opposition are building up.

Players come and go, squad changes but not gonna lie, it's so infuriating to see that we have gone from a team who defend properly, don't give goals away to one who can't defend at all and commit stupid mistakes all over the pitch. Being defensive solid is the one big aspect that we were great for so long and now, we are defending like clowns and suffering stupid bad/heavy defeats. Since 2018, we have been thrashed 4-1 by Watford, 3-0 & 4-0 by Bournemouth, 6-0 by Man City and 4-0 by Man United. That's just way too many to take in like 2 years and it's not as if we've been playing a squad of U20 players either. It's mostly filled experienced players!

[Superblue 6,331]

3 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I would go with Reece at right back because Andreas and, perhaps Azpi, are better alternative CBs than anyone is as an alternative RB if Reece is played in the middle. I don't think any of us had many complaints with Dave's performance at CB in a three. How he'd fare in a four is open for debate however. Maybe we need a Jose solution. Dave at RB with orders to stay home, and Reece at CB.

Dave isn't a premium attacking full back anyway, and by staying home he gives protection against the counterattack which we've been struggling with since the start of preseason. Meanwhile Reece at CB looks like a swings and roundabouts situation to me. We gain from his range of passing but lose because he won't often get into high positions where he can deliver crosses. A significant loss because he's the best crosser of the ball in the club.

Even I realise that I may be going a bit overboard about an untried 19-year-old. If anyone leveled that accusation at me I'd have to say it's a reasonable point of view. All I can offer in my defence is that I genuinely believe what I'm saying about the lad.

I certainly see where the optimism is coming from. He stood out at youth level and although all I've seen is highlights packages, you only need to see Wigan fan's viewpoint of how good he is.

I would tend to agree with you by the way, I think it's more important that he plays at right back where he can offer an additional attacking outlet. Liverpool and Man City have shown how important the full backs are as a source of chance creation and I think the potential Reece James has in that right back position is too much to not utilise.

I still have faith in Christensen and that Lampard can get the best out of him again by restoring his confidence as a first choice player. He's comfortable on the ball and is deceptively quick also, I feel everything holding him back currently is mental and Lampard needs to bring that belief back out in him that he can be a top, classy defender as the foil to Rudiger who needs to continue to grow into a dominant and leadership role.

Lampard wanting to play the way we did yesterday with a high line and a high press - add Reece James, Rudiger and Kante into that side and I do believe it will make a big difference to how much more solid and successful that can be.