Super Frank Thread

[El P. 1,354]

  On 29/12/2019 at 17:52, Jason said:

Malouda had 9 goals and 9 assists in 2008/09, 15 goals and 15 assists in 2009/10 and 14 goals and 5 assists in 2010/11. 

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Well, that is a bit more than I thought, but my point still stands because for me it's simple - Chelsea from 2009 let's say relied on three players to score 13+ goals: Drogba, Lampard and Malouda. In other seasons too, Drogba+Lampard+Anelka let's say. And now I want us to rely on 3 players to score those amounts as well: Abraham and two wingers. Goals were not dutty of I don't know how much players, it was from three players.

In keeping current situation, as you would wish, I think we would end up with squad that will never be good enough to take down big guys. Lampard never played 4-2-3-1 against bigger sides for right reasons, we are just too fragile defensively like that (IMO we'd need to replace 2-3 players from defense to support that formation against bigger sides), hence why we had Kova and 4-3-3 to bring stability. But 4-3-3 as it is now has no enough firepower. So yeah, I don't see how could we have WC first XI continuing like that.

I am for bringing Sancho, but I am not for playing 4-3-3 all of the time, of course. We can still play 4-2-3-1 against smaller sides so Mount and Pulisic could get more goals (I assume CHO will be our starter sooner rather than later, and both Mount and Puly could get to the 7-8 goals being rotational players).

[Jase 43,479]

  On 29/12/2019 at 18:41, El P. said:

I am for bringing Sancho, but I am not for playing 4-3-3 all of the time, of course. We can still play 4-2-3-1 against smaller sides so Mount and Pulisic could get more goals (I assume CHO will be our starter sooner rather than later, and both Mount and Puly could get to the 7-8 goals being rotational players).

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Ho ho. I don't think it's gonna be as straightforward as that. CHO hasn't done enough to suggest he'll be a starter any time soon while Lampard loves Mount and Willian. 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

Hey he changed the game. He saw he fucked up he saw we were being overrun. So he changed it. Cant ask for more. As long as he learns and we see passion and progress then lets keep going at it. But no denying we are in dire need of new players.....quality players thank you. Enough with the dross.

[killer1257 3,282]

  On 29/12/2019 at 18:11, Tomo said:

He seriously scored than many in 10/11? I swear he was diabolical every time he played.

He was our best Player in that Season,especially in the first half of the Season. Probably the best crosser I have seen in my life.


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[Jase 43,479]

 

[Vesper 29,408]

Chelsea boss Frank Lampard reveals he wanted to make substitution after 10 minutes vs Arsenal

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/chelsea-boss-frank-lampard-reveals-he-wanted-to-make-substitution-after-10-minutes-vs-arsenal-a4322901.html

[OneMoSalah 8,832]

  On 30/12/2019 at 03:10, Vesper said:

Chelsea boss Frank Lampard reveals he wanted to make substitution after 10 minutes vs Arsenal

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/chelsea-boss-frank-lampard-reveals-he-wanted-to-make-substitution-after-10-minutes-vs-arsenal-a4322901.html

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"Mikel Arteta isn’t silly, he saw us play it at Tottenham, found a way to pin our five back. They had us marking one at the back, they had numbers in midfield, they won all the second balls and that had to change."

And probably the Southampton game too where we were ridiculously bad too using 343 at the beginning but he played it anyways today to the same affect. Yeah Frank outlined why it didnt work after but he persisted with it at the start. For me thats not a good sign because Tottenham and Arsenal are totally different and thats without even mentioning Southampton. I almost get the feeling he realised from the start we would be up against it but his arrogance of how we played in Spurs performance made him think it was the right move. Despite the fact Southampton was the game prior to Arsenal.... I hope we dont play 343 next match.

[Jase 43,479]

  On 30/12/2019 at 03:26, OneMoSalah said:

"Mikel Arteta isn’t silly, he saw us play it at Tottenham, found a way to pin our five back. They had us marking one at the back, they had numbers in midfield, they won all the second balls and that had to change."

And probably the Southampton game too where we were ridiculously bad too using 343 at the beginning but he played it anyways today to the same affect. Yeah Frank outlined why it didnt work after but he persisted with it at the start. For me thats not a good sign because Tottenham and Arsenal are totally different and thats without even mentioning Southampton. I almost get the feeling he realised from the start we would be up against it but his arrogance of how we played in Spurs performance made him think it was the right move. Despite the fact Southampton was the game prior to Arsenal.... I hope we dont play 343 next match.

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It was the same thing earlier this season. Started with the 3-4-3 at Wolves and we won 5-2, then he started the same system in the next game and we duly lost to Valencia with a very flat performance.

I just don't get why Lampard persisted with the back 3 when on both occasions, we played it to specifically counter opposing teams.

[killer1257 3,282]

  On 30/12/2019 at 06:30, Jason said:

It was the same thing earlier this season. Started with the 3-4-3 at Wolves and we won 5-2, then he started the same system in the next game and we duly lost to Valencia with a very flat performance.
I just don't get why Lampard persisted with the back 3 when on both occasions, we played it to specifically counter opposing teams.

Mou only played 4-2-3-1. Conte, when he found that 3-4-3 was Working, played that System til he got sacked. Sometimes, he played 3-5-2.
Lamps has two Systems and neither are perfect for our squad. In a 3 men back, you need to have creative CBs. Rüdiger and Zouma are the worst players at long balls I have seen in a long time. Only Tomori can actually pass the ball.
In a 4 man back, we are way more vulnerable conceding goals because our back 4 is not good enough at defending and our Defensive midfielders sometimes make weird passes to the opponent.



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  On 30/12/2019 at 09:52, killer1257 said:

Mou only played 4-2-3-1. Conte, when he found that 3-4-3 was Working, played that System til he got sacked. Sometimes, he played 3-5-2.
Lamps has two Systems and neither are perfect for our squad. In a 3 men back, you need to have creative CBs. Rüdiger and Zouma are the worst players at long balls I have seen in a long time. Only Tomori can actually pass the ball.
In a 4 man back, we are way more vulnerable conceding goals because our back 4 is not good enough at defending and our Defensive midfielders sometimes make weird passes to the opponent.

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Yes but what I'm trying to say is when we used the back 3 at Wolves and Spurs, it was used to counter them specifically. Lampard said so on both occasions, it looked like he had worked with the players on the system because the players looked comfortable and knew what they were doing in those 2 games. But when it was used against Valencia, Southampton and Arsenal, the formation looked haphazard at best and the players looked clueless, not knowing what to do or how to play it (Lille away was the only occasion it kinda worked). It felt as though Lampard simply went with that formation because it worked in the previous game and just tried to paper over the defensive organization cracks. Regarding the defenders not being good enough at defending, I don't necessarily disagree but good defensive coaching goes a long way to help players defend better, as individual and as a unit. 

[killer1257 3,282]

  On 30/12/2019 at 10:08, Jason said:

Yes but what I'm trying to say is when we used the back 3 at Wolves and Spurs, it was used to counter them specifically. Lampard said so on both occasions, it looked like he had worked with the players on the system because the players looked comfortable and knew what they were doing in those 2 games. But when it was used against Valencia, Southampton and Arsenal, the formation looked haphazard at best and the players looked clueless, not knowing what to do or how to play it (Lille away was the only occasion it kinda worked). It felt as though Lampard simply went with that formation because it worked in the previous game and just tried to paper over the defensive organization cracks. Regarding the defenders not being good enough at defending, I don't necessarily disagree but good defensive coaching goes a long way to help players defend better, as individual and as a unit. 

I know what you mean, but sometimes tactics are not as easy as we think. Lamps could started a 4-3-3 and Mikel could have done something completely else than he did against us and then maybe Lamps would have then switched to 4 at the back.
Arteta is new in the game, so he is pretty unpredictable.

Me personally, I don't like playing with 3 at the back with players like Rüdiger and Zouma. Under Conte it worked because Luiz was the Master at long Balls and we had also Cesc to play Fabrepasses, so enough creativity. Also, we had Hazard who could score a decisive goal. But I would still go with a 3 at the back against Bayern.

Now you are talking about good Defensive Coaches? Which ones? Mou who can't make average defenders at Spurs better?
Klopp, who needed VVD to stabilize his Defense ?
Guardiola? Just kidding haha
Simeone? Probably the only real deal with Conte when it comes to top class defensive coaching.
Even Conte could only make us better for one season from the defensive point of view. We just lack in quality.


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[Jase 43,479]

  On 30/12/2019 at 10:35, killer1257 said:

Now you are talking about good Defensive Coaches? Which ones? Mou who can't make average defenders at Spurs better?
Klopp, who needed VVD to stabilize his Defense ?
Guardiola? Just kidding haha
Simeone? Probably the only real deal with Conte when it comes to top class defensive coaching.
Even Conte could only make us better for one season from the defensive point of view. We just lack in quality.

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What does this have to do with other manager? Still doesn't change the fact that we have been a collective defensive mess all season, making the same mistakes over and over again. Leicester and Sheffield United this season for example don't exactly have world class players across/in their defence but they have the second best defence in the league. Why? You can only blame the players for so long. They are a problem, but so is the defensive coaching. I remember when Fergie used to have Carlos Queiroz do the defensive coaching side of things at United.

[killer1257 3,282]

  On 30/12/2019 at 10:48, Jason said:

What does this have to do with other manager? Still doesn't change the fact that we have been a collective defensive mess all season, making the same mistakes over and over again. Leicester and Sheffield United this season for example don't exactly have world class players across/in their defence but they have the second best defence in the league. Why? You can only blame the players for so long. They are a problem, but so is the defensive coaching. I remember when Fergie used to have Carlos Queiroz do the defensive coaching side of things at United.

From what I have seen from Leicester, Söyüncü looks pretty good and I would rather have him here than Zouma or Rüdiger.

I rate Conte as the best defensive Coach with Simeone and he could only make us better from the defensive point of view for one season. After that, it was off.
If you think that you don't need World class defenders especially in a Frank System that wants to play Offensive, that is your opinion. Klopp needed 3 years to get a good defense.

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[killer1257 3,282]

 

 

 

  On 30/12/2019 at 10:48, Jason said:

They are a problem, but so is the defensive coaching. I remember when Fergie used to have Carlos Queiroz do the defensive coaching side of things at United.

 

Didn't Fergie have Vidic and Ferdinand as their CB. Vidic was a Beast and for me is one of the best CBs of all time in PL. Ferdinand in his prime where he had speed was a monster. I would rather have them in a 4 at the back System than Rüdiger and Zouma

 

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[Jase 43,479]

  On 30/12/2019 at 10:56, killer1257 said:

From what I have seen from Leicester, Söyüncü looks pretty good and I would rather have him here than Zouma or Rüdiger.

I rate Conte as the best defensive Coach with Simeone and he could only make us better from the defensive point of view for one season. After that, it was off.
If you think that you don't need World class defenders especially in a Frank System that wants to play Offensive, that is your opinion. Klopp needed 3 years to get a good defense.

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Where did I say we don’t need better defenders? All I’m basically saying is the defensive coaching side of things is also important and you don’t have to be a defensive manager to be able to coach. Fergie had his assistant Queiroz to do that at United. Also even if our defence was creaking in Conte’s second season, it never got as messy as we have been in this season.

[Jase 43,479]

  On 30/12/2019 at 11:08, killer1257 said:

Didn't Work Fergie have Vidic and Ferdinand as their CB. Vidic was a Beast and for me is one of the best CBs of all time in PL. Ferdinand in his prime where he had speed was a monster. I would rather have them in a 4 at the back System than Rüdiger and Zouma

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But Vidic was hardly a known quality when he joined United, was he? Anyway 👇🏻
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/former-old-trafford-captain-nemanja-18684384

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1279039-man-uniteds-decline-how-united-have-regressed-tactically-since-queiroz

[Atomiswave 6,072]

If you want proper defensive shape and ability then you need good defenders and a good coach, goes hand in hand. FL or the staff suck ass in that regard so far. You must be good at it if you wanna go Places.

Imo defence should always be nr 1 priority, then you go up the field. A mean defence gives you pts.

At the same time we dont exactly have super defenders, and its not only defenders per say, the whole shape of the team when you defend is crucial as well.

Conte and Simone know their shit, so did the younger JM.

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 30/12/2019 at 11:52, Atomiswave said:

Imo defence should always be nr 1 priority, then you go up the field. A mean defence gives you pts.

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I don't agree, in this era the most successful teams at this moment in this country set out their philosophy, stuck to it, took the punches and gradually got in more suitable players.