Super Frank Thread

[Fulham Broadway 16,838]

Willians knackered due to age and appearances. My guess he's being pureed and concentrated for Bayern, Utd, Sp*rs, probably bit parts to squeeze the best out of him. 

The good news is RLC played for an hour the other night....

[communicate 2,703]

10 hours ago, Jason said:

If it's not about Willian's output, if Willian is as great as you keep making him out to be, then why did Lampard not play him over CHO? 

Just because it make sense in theory, it doesn't mean it will work in practice...

The 1st question, I don't know. Maybe it is more about their future. One pretty much out of contract at the end of the season. One is our future. Not the same but a bit similar to Michy over Giroud situation. 

It was working though, I think it was against Spurs. When cross come from the right we have Alonso, Tammy in the box. 

[Vesper 28,787]

Willian needs to be sent packing

we are some truly numpty twats if we cave in and pay him £30m for the next 3 years as he eases the afro into the retirement home

he is poison and has collapsed again

2 league goals since October is NOT good enough

and both those came in the same game

we can replace him with Boga and/or Ziyech

and work on Sancho, although Sancho is not going to be able to be purchased budget-wise unless we do what I suggest and sell Kante

bottom line is that it was criminal that the cunt Marina turned down £65m for him from Barca and now he walks on a free

we could have sold him and Alonso in summer 2018 for £110m combined

and bought Richarlison and Telles for a combined £68m then

IF we had done that

the rolling 3 year FFP cumulative loss of £40m disappears completely as the salary rates would have been about the same or even less

fuck the board

 

[Johnnyeye 7,440]

18 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Willian needs to be sent packing

we are some truly numpty twats if we cave in and pay him £30m for the next 3 years as he eases the afro into the retirement home

he is poison and has collapsed again

2 league goals since October is NOT good enough

and both those came in the same game

we can replace him with Boga and/or Ziyech

and work on Sancho, although Sancho is not going to be able to be purchased budget-wise unless we do what I suggest and sell Kante

bottom line is that it was criminal that the cunt Marina turned down £65m for him from Barca and now he walks on a free

we could have sold him and Alonso in summer 2018 for £110m combined

and bought Richarlison and Telles for a combined £68m then

IF we had done that

the rolling 3 year FFP cumulative loss of £40m disappears completely as the salary rates would have been about the same or even less

fuck the board

 

couldnt agree more, we have an incompetent board.

[Vesper 28,787]

On 2/4/2020 at 11:10 PM, MoroccanBlue said:

And I’ll raise you Godin, Sanchez, Young, and Moses. Even worse when you look at the average age of Inter and the players Inter are rumored with under Conte. He’s looking for immediate success and doesn’t care of the precautions for the future. 

Sanchez, Young, and Moses are all on loan, the last 2 for 5 months. Godin, who is still a beast, especially for Serie A in the short term, was on a free.

Inter did not ransom their future with them at all. They went for a title push with vets who cost them peanuts, and can sort the long term out at their leisure.

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, communicate said:

The 1st question, I don't know. Maybe it is more about their future. One pretty much out of contract at the end of the season. One is our future. Not the same but a bit similar to Michy over Giroud situation. 

It was working though, I think it was against Spurs. When cross come from the right we have Alonso, Tammy in the box. 

While we did play well against Spurs, it was ONE game and it so happened that we also caught them cold tactically. Alonso is most certainly not good enough for us to switch to a back 3 just for him!

[communicate 2,703]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

While we did play well against Spurs, it was ONE game and it so happened that we also caught them cold tactically. Alonso is most certainly not good enough for us to switch to a back 3 just for him!

It got nothing to do with back 3. I will play alonso in back 4 as long as he is protected. 

It come down to finding solution based on what we have. We can't score right now so who do we have who can help us score.

Puli, injured

Pedro, gone gone. 

Mount, if played on the left will need a lb to help him because he is not really dribbler. Which mean Emerson will have to play. If played an am kante has to play as dm. 

Kante, see above. 

Alonso, will attack the box but need a workhorse to protect him. 

CHO, not sure attacking the box is his game right now. 

So it is simple, while waiting for puli to get back and hopefully he get back firing. We can play Emerson on the left with mount, and let kante bomb or play alonso with Willian.

 

 

 

 

[petre.ispirescu 4,928]

I want to say something related to Lampard's Chelsea being lucky they are fourth because others are having a bad season. 

Well, football and sports in general are made of this things. Maybe the Chiefs would not be SB champions had the Patriots had a normal season by their standards, maybe Liverpool was lucky to win the UCL last season because of Barcelona's debacle at Anfield, maybe Chelsea was lucky to win the title with Conte because others did not pose a threat all season long. Maybe, maybe, maybe. 

In the end you can find all the reasons in the world for a league winner why they were lucky to win it and how others contributed to it by not being up for the challenge. 

The same way Chelsea are lucky to be fourth can be said about United, Spurs and Arsenal, too, they are lucky to still be chasing a top 4 spot because of Chelsea. But football does not work like that, Liverpool are first because they deserve to be there, Chelsea are fourth because of the same reason, Arsenal mid table because they are and they indeed play like a mid table club and so on and so forth. 

Give Lampard a few seasons and I must say at least 4-5 transfer windows and let's see, maybe he is good enough maybe he is not, only time will tell. 

More and more should take Liverpool's example and give their managers time and resources. Look at them a few years back and look at them now, basically Salah was a Chelsea reject coming of a good spell in Italy, Firmino you thought he'd be another Suso, Luis Alberto, Ibe etc., Mane was just a decent player by the PL standards, Henderson was your average PL donkey, Robertson some Scottish freebie from Hull, Van Dijk the 75M man everybody though it was thr biggest rip off and so on and so forth. None would think they would end up like this now and look how many years it took. Lampard's just 6 months in and not a single transfer in. I'd judge the man after he's made the team of his desired players.

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, communicate said:

It got nothing to do with back 3. I will play alonso in back 4 as long as he is protected. 

It come down to finding solution based on what we have. We can't score right now so who do we have who can help us score.

"As long as he is protected" Says all about Alonso, doesn't it? He is not the Messi or Ronaldo of a left back or wing back (hell, he is not even Marcelo!). Making compromises to the team just to fit one average player is utterly nonsense and moreover, his goalscoring record last season in a back 4 rivals Willian's "desperate" output as a winger. Alonso had 4 goals and 7 assists in 39 appearances last season but 1 of the goals and 4 of the assists came in the first four games, meaning he had only 3 goals and 3 assists in the subsequent 35 games! Is that something worth making compromises for? I can't wait for the day when we bin the likes of Alonso, Willian so we don't have to hear people make them to be world class etc! 

[El P. 1,354]

56 minutes ago, Jason said:

"As long as he is protected" Says all about Alonso, doesn't it? He is not the Messi or Ronaldo of a left back or wing back (hell, he is not even Marcelo!). Making compromises to the team just to fit one average player is utterly nonsense and moreover, his goalscoring record last season in a back 4 rivals Willian's "desperate" output as a winger. Alonso had 4 goals and 7 assists in 39 appearances last season but 1 of the goals and 4 of the assists came in the first four games, meaning he had only 3 goals and 3 assists in the subsequent 35 games! Is that something worth making compromises for? I can't wait for the day when we bin the likes of Alonso, Willian so we don't have to hear people make them to be world class etc! 

Totally agree, and when you think about this - one of Azpi or James would need to make space for Alonso. Azpi - our captain who still has a lot to offer, and James, our brightest prospect.

[Vesper 28,787]

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[communicate 2,703]

On 2/6/2020 at 8:38 PM, El P. said:

Totally agree, and when you think about this - one of Azpi or James would need to make space for Alonso. Azpi - our captain who still has a lot to offer, and James, our brightest prospect.

It is all about the team. I don't care who play but they need to complement each other that is the most important thing. Azpi on the left mean the best winger in front of him is Willian. 

[communicate 2,703]

On 2/6/2020 at 7:40 PM, Jason said:

"As long as he is protected" Says all about Alonso, doesn't it? He is not the Messi or Ronaldo of a left back or wing back (hell, he is not even Marcelo!). Making compromises to the team just to fit one average player is utterly nonsense and moreover, his goalscoring record last season in a back 4 rivals Willian's "desperate" output as a winger. Alonso had 4 goals and 7 assists in 39 appearances last season but 1 of the goals and 4 of the assists came in the first four games, meaning he had only 3 goals and 3 assists in the subsequent 35 games! Is that something worth making compromises for? I can't wait for the day when we bin the likes of Alonso, Willian so we don't have to hear people make them to be world class etc! 

Willian and alonso is not wc but I honestly don't really care. It is all about selecting player who complement each other to build the best team. That is the most important part.

You said Willian and alonso are suck, fine. Now your choice is Puli and CHO. Puli is useless outside final 3rd and is better playing narrower, so he need to play on the left. So you need to bring the ball to him, which mean Emerson will start. On the right hand side we have CHO and James. With cho and puli playing, we will be more direct which mean more transition opportunity which mean our weak defense will be tested even more. 

 

[Vesper 28,787]

13 minutes ago, communicate said:

You said Willian and alonso are suck, fine.

[Vesper 28,787]

Jadon Sancho has changed the landscape for England’s gifted youngsters – and Chelsea have taken note

https://theathletic.com/1588438/2020/02/07/chelsea-youth-contracts-sancho-abraham/

The youth movement that has defined Frank Lampard’s first season at Chelsea is being enacted on two fronts.

One is on the pitch, where the spectacular progress of Tammy Abraham, Mason Mount, Fikayo Tomori, Callum Hudson-Odoi and Reece James has finally begun to reflect the stellar work done by head of youth development Neil Bath and his Cobham academy staff for more than a decade.

The other is at the negotiating table, where Chelsea have also enjoyed more victories than defeats. Hudson-Odoi, Mount, Tomori, James, Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Billy Gilmour and Marc Guehi have all agreed new long-term contracts since the beginning of the season, while all parties involved expect talks over Abraham’s extension to reach a similar conclusion.

Tino Anjorin and Ian Maatsen, two of the brightest talents in the development squad, are next on the list. Both have trained regularly with Lampard’s first-team squad since making their senior debuts as substitutes in the 7-1 win over Grimsby Town in the Carabao Cup third round in September, but are currently set to become free agents in the summer of 2021.

Discussions between Anjorin and Chelsea over a new deal that would run to June 2025 are progressing well, sources have told The Athletic, and there is optimism an agreement will be reached sooner rather than later. Hopes are also high that Maatsen, whose contract talks were interrupted by his Under-17 World Cup campaign with Holland, will commit his long-term future.

But the January losses of right-back Tariq Lamptey to Brighton and Clinton Mola, a versatile player capable of operating as a defensive midfielder or in the middle or on the left of defence, to Stuttgart offered a painful reminder that until a new contract is actually signed, all options remain open.

Sources told The Athletic that Lamptey, 19, agreed the framework of a new contract in the middle of last month, less than a fortnight after he made an impressive cameo on his senior debut in a Premier League match against Arsenal. “Hopefully he feels a bit of love,” Lampard said of Lamptey following that game, in reference to the contract situation.

But the terms of the deal then changed and other options emerged, including firm interest from Brighton and French club Lille. Lamptey was not inclined to move abroad and ultimately decided to join Brighton because he simply couldn’t see a pathway to Chelsea’s starting XI with club captain Cesar Azpilicueta and James, one of the brightest young talents of his generation, established in front of him in the right-back position.

The 18-year-old Mola, meanwhile, did not feel he was even in the first-team reckoning. Rarely invited to train with Lampard’s seniors despite being an England Under-19 international, he watched as Hudson-Odoi, a former academy team-mate only five months older than him, became established while he remained with the development squad.

Chelsea made an offer to extend the deal of Mola who, like Lamptey, was due to be out of contract this summer, but Stuttgart made the more compelling pitch of a new start in Germany. Led by new sporting director Sven Mislintat, formerly of Arsenal and Borussia Dortmund, they assured Mola of immediate first-team opportunities and explained with impressive detail how he fits into their long-term plans.

There can be no denying that money was also a factor in both cases and the financial terms on offer from Brighton for Lamptey and from Stuttgart for Mola were better than what Chelsea were prepared to pay. But those familiar with the Mola deal insist that if wages were the driving force he would have instead joined AC Milan rather than gone to Germany.

Mola has been given early encouragement that his decision will be vindicated on the pitch. He did not need to wait long for his first senior minutes, coming on as a second-half substitute in a 2-1 cup defeat to Bayer Leverkusen on Wednesday. The average age of Stuttgart’s starting XI was just 24 years, six months and six days, while Mola was one of five teenagers on the bench.

Part of the problem Chelsea encountered with both Lamptey and Mola relates to the question that has annoyed Lampard all season: would this youth movement be happening at Stamford Bridge if it weren’t for their transfer ban last summer? It is a question that is being asked not just by those outside Chelsea with a vested interest in downplaying the club’s youth development upturn but also by influential people around some of the youngsters still in the system.

Some still believe that Chelsea’s “pivot to Cobham” was caused more by FIFA’s decision to punish the club for breaking rules regarding the transfer and registration of minors than any substantial shift in philosophy. The perception is that the likes of Mount, Abraham and Tomori have been the beneficiaries of a unique window of opportunity no longer open to those internal prospects who might come next.

Lampard has repeatedly insisted he is making a conscious choice to trust in youth over some of the experienced internationals at his disposal. Chelsea might also point to their lack of transfer activity in January, despite getting their FIFA ban reduced on appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), as proof that they are no longer in the business of blocking the pathway for youth.

But some in football and around the club’s academy structure wonder if Lampard would even have got the Chelsea job were it not for FIFA’s punishment. They highlight the fact that Chelsea spent £58 million on Christian Pulisic a year ago despite having Mount — an attacking midfielder of similar age, profile and arguably quality — already in their system.

In short, these doubters need more convincing and will be watching Chelsea’s approach to transfers this summer, and beyond, closely.

The other element to this is that there are no shortage of clubs, particularly in Germany, prepared to offer talented teenagers at leading Premier League academies an accelerated route to the top.

Jadon Sancho changed everything. His dazzling transformation within the space of two-and-a-half years at Dortmund, from a frustrated talent in Manchester City’s youth academy to one of the most coveted teenagers in world football, has fundamentally changed the entire conversation around many of English football’s most gifted youngsters.

The contract talks that take place towards the end of any top academy prospect’s first professional deal have never been harder. Sancho’s success has prompted clubs across the Bundesliga to systematically and aggressively target the best teenagers in elite Premier League academies, giving the players’ representatives greater leverage to secure better terms from their current employers or force their way to another club that offers more immediate first-team opportunities.

A key element of Bayern Munich’s pitch to Hudson-Odoi was that he could become their Sancho. Chelsea ultimately won that tug of war, committing the 19-year-old to a lucrative new deal that runs until June 2024 in September, and some of the families of other Cobham prospects took heart from how hard the club fought to keep the dazzlingly talented winger.

Bayern did, however, succeed in prying Jamal Musiala and Bright Arrey-Mbi out of Chelsea’s academy last year. Others will be tempted too. In developing Sancho and others, the Bundesliga has established itself as a trusted proving ground for elite talents of all nationalities, as well as the most reliable stepping stone on the path to some of Europe’s biggest clubs.

In particular, there is a growing perception that excelling in the Bundesliga is the surest route to a position of prominence at one of the Premier League’s “Big Six”, because England’s top clubs value achievements there as a stronger predictor of future success than standout performances in the Championship or on another, lesser stage.

This was the decisive factor for Mola, who is represented by the same agent who took Sancho, Reiss Nelson and Ademola Lookman to the Bundesliga. It would not be a surprise to see more English teenagers end up at Stuttgart now that Mislintat — widely regarded as one of the best identifiers and recruiters of young talent in world football — is running the show there.

Chelsea can make a more compelling case than ever to Anjorin, Maatsen and the rest of their top academy talents with Lampard as first-team head coach, backed up by Jody Morris and Joe Edwards, and a growing cast of recent Cobham graduates in every match-day squad.

That in itself can also be a problem, though — Chelsea have too many good young players emerging from their academy to possibly bring through themselves. Lamptey left in part because he couldn’t see a way past James, while the long-term presence of Tomori and Andreas Christensen in the first team, coupled with Guehi’s faster elevation and Lampard’s wide array of midfield options, factored into Mola’s decision not to stay.

Many youngsters are also increasingly wary of taking the loan route — where one bad move can completely derail the momentum of their development — when the alternative is following the example of some of their teammates at England youth level and seeking out clubs prepared to take a more hands-on role in realising their potential.

But compared to where Chelsea were only a few years ago, targeting mediocre domestic signings simply to satisfy the Premier League’s requirements for homegrown squad members, these are good problems to have. Whether by luck, design or the combination of the two, the road that separates the academy and first-team buildings at Cobham no longer feels like a threshold that cannot be crossed.

As long as Lampard is able to maintain a balance between his youth movement and transfer spending this summer, Chelsea should continue to win more than they lose when it comes to keeping the very best talents from the most dominant and productive academy in England.

If he does not though, recent evidence suggests there will be plenty of clubs ready to take advantage.

 

[Tomo 21,733]

On 05/02/2020 at 0:57 PM, Atomiswave said:

I I think he would have been content if we just had given him 2 of HIS players. And you want him to use a kid Tammy and James in 17-18 season? Nahh would never have worked, cant see it mate, we were freaking title winners by rocking the League. And somehow I doubt we would have given him Auba, I doubt it. 

If he was as upset about the prospect of signing Morata as people like to imply then why not? Tammy at that point was in a similar stage of his career as to what Mount and Tomori were this season.

Also fairly certain Auba would have been signed off on given he was cheaper than Morata.

On 05/02/2020 at 0:57 PM, Atomiswave said:

but will go down as one of the best we will ever have.

Which makes what he did all the more unforgivable.

Atleast with Jose's collapse we can put it down to his powers waning, Conte could have easily prevented what happened in his second season just by doing his job.

On 05/02/2020 at 1:03 PM, Atomiswave said:

Sarri could do better with that squad, Conte would have done much better than him that season. We played some horrific shit....

Sarri took over a squad suited to pragmatic counter and he was tasked with completely overhauling a style of play. As you constantly point out our overall squad in itself is a bit of handicap let alone when you try to introduce a style of play alien to most of them.

The football aesthetically speaking didn't live up to the hype agreed but 3rd and two cup finals was about as good as what could realistically have been achieved under the circumstances.

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

18 hours ago, Tomo said:

If he was as upset about the prospect of signing Morata as people like to imply then why not? Tammy at that point was in a similar stage of his career as to what Mount and Tomori were this season.

Also fairly certain Auba would have been signed off on given he was cheaper than Morata.

Which makes what he did all the more unforgivable.

Atleast with Jose's collapse we can put it down to his powers waning, Conte could have easily prevented what happened in his second season just by doing his job.

Sarri took over a squad suited to pragmatic counter and he was tasked with completely overhauling a style of play. As you constantly point out our overall squad in itself is a bit of handicap let alone when you try to introduce a style of play alien to most of them.

The football aesthetically speaking didn't live up to the hype agreed but 3rd and two cup finals was about as good as what could realistically have been achieved under the circumstances.

Yes and no.

There was a lot of tension in the squad between him, Willian, Hazard and Luiz who were obviously big parts of the team and dressing room. Reports are they would have all tried to leave if Conte stayed which said it all.

Yes he moaned a lot, wasnt overly happy at the recruitment and he didnt do an amazing job after the turn of the year but the players also dropped their levels a fair bit so to speak based on their effort and performances (again, like under Jose too a season after winning the title although again there were similar factors). There were games like Watford and Bournemouth for instance where you could see the players didnt give a shit. Other games we still created chances but not being clinical fucked us (Morata, lack of trust in Batshuayi - although warranted based on what we see from him when he does play).

Regarding Morata too, I think he signed him for Juve at his request before he left but obviously Lukaku was his first choice that summer and you can see that at Inter. Morata still confuses me, he was good the majority of the first half of the season, having an effect similarly to what Costa had when Jose first brought him in (albeit different players and styles), his regression here is absolutely baffling. He had good aspects to his game in terms of technical attributes and his ability to combine with others but his mindset was completely wrong after he went on that dip and never has recovered. Not even properly at Atletico.

Sarri, as I said before he went needed time and some new players but the fans and club werent truely behind him towards the end which is sad because I do think if he was able to persist with his tactics and add to the squad, it would of been better. I also agree with your points. He was trying to go from a more pragmatic 343 to a hugely offensive fast paced possession based 433. There were times where the football was very good in terms of the build up but the final third again, that was the key issue, it either got too slow (Hazard, Willian, Morata taking too kany touches and no 3rd man runs from midfield particularly in the 2nd half of the season) or broke down. 2 cup finals were really a bonus for somebody who had never won anything until that season although beating Arsenal in the way we did in the Europa was great.

There is a huge underlying factor behind all our managers since after Di Matteo. The transfers have been mixed, for all the good, there has been more bad. For every Courtois, Cahill, Azpi, Hazard, Kante, Costa, Cesc, there is a Bakayoko, Papy Djibilodushd whatever his name is, Barkley, Drinkwater, Michy etc.

[Tomo 21,733]

35 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Yes and no.

There was a lot of tension in the squad between him, Willian, Hazard and Luiz who were obviously big parts of the team and dressing room. Reports are they would have all tried to leave if Conte stayed which said it all.Yes he moaned a lot, wasnt overly happy at the recruitment and he didnt do an amazing job after the turn of the year but the players also dropped their levels a fair bit so to speak based on their effort and performances (again, like under Jose too a season after winning the title although again there were similar factors). There were games like Watford and Bournemouth for instance where you could see the players didnt give a shit.

Did they really? Willian probably produced the best football of his career for a month, Hazard wasn't his best self but far from his worst and Luiz was safely dropped by that point.

39 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Sarri, as I said before he went needed time and some new players but the fans and club werent truely behind him towards the end which is sad because I do think if he was able to persist with his tactics and add to the squad, it would of been better. I also agree with your points. He was trying to go from a more pragmatic 343 to a hugely offensive fast paced possession based 433. There were times where the football was very good in terms of the build up but the final third again, that was the key issue, it either got too slow (Hazard, Willian, Morata taking too kany touches and no 3rd man runs from midfield particularly in the 2nd half of the season) or broke down. 2 cup finals were really a bonus for somebody who had never won anything until that season although beating Arsenal in the way we did in the Europa was great.

I think the club were towards Sarri or atleast the change of style that came with him, they had the perfect excuse to get shot when we got stuffed 10-0 on aggregate to Bournemouth and City and the fans were raging but they didn't.

I personally believe the long term plan was (and I said this as early as the honeymoon phase of Sarri's tenure) to have Sarri for a few years and then bring in Frank, however Maurizio's sudden desire for Juve accelerated the process.