The Conte Thread

[cosmicway 1,333]

Roman has to jump into action and it's not something like bailing out the club, it's his job.
If it is a lossy investment then it means we are headed towards the ... Isthmian league and everyone resigns.
If Chelsea football club is a lossy investment then I wonder how many teams are left in the world.

 

[robsblubot 3,531]

4 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

You have written four paragraphs and I agree with every word in three of them. The one I see differently is your suggestion that we can assume there has been club pressure on team selections. What evidence is there to support that assumption?

I know only one case in the last 13 and a bit years, Daniel Sturridge, where the club has issued an instruction to the manager. The fact that it was a negative instruction, rather than a positive one to put him in the team, suggests that this was for disciplinary, or other non-football, reasons.

Apart from that, none of Roman's managers has ever said that he faced pressure from above and several have said exactly the opposite. Not only have   Cloudio, Jose, Avram, Guus and the temp praised the club for non-interference but they were very clear about it.

While it is possible to believe that these men were under contractual obligation not to speak about any interference, it is not possible to believe that their contracts would have compelled them to praise the club's behaviour if that praise wasn't deserved.

Someone did tell me in a reply recently about a claim in Carlo's book that there had been interference. I'm surprised it wasn't a far bigger story in the media at the time. Unless I completely missed it, and being a Chelsea obsessive I don't miss much, there was no media storm about it. Not even a tiny little puff. Not that I remember anyway.

Ok that's a difficult one to answer because it's down to perception.

I believe there are very different kinds of pressure. Here's just some of them:

The simplest one is availability: a manager, especially one arriving at the club, can only play whoever is available. Perhaps the club wanted to get rid of some of the deadwood, but there were no buyers (esp at their wages). Some of these same deadwood got more minutes last season than they've seen in quite some time, perhaps to attract a buyer. All speculation, but it is very difficult to sell players when the scouts don't see them perform (good or bad just talk about me).

* I've heard a former Serie A club president in brazil, saying that no other than our beloved Scolari (way before Chelsea) was in love with this very grotesque (skilless) holding mid. Who would start in every fucking game. The president tried approaching Scolari directly and indirectly, until one day he (the former president) went to Scolari and told him that the player was gone, because he had received an offer the club could not refuse (the player went on a free transfer).

Second, money! I don't pretend to know how these deals work behind the scenes, but I do acknowledge that money exerts influence in all areas, including sports. Does Cahill get a pass for being England international at times? Is it nationalism or simply just a subtle influence of money when a pundit spares him of criticism, so that he's a more valuable "asset" (to his employer, the media) when England plays?

Information. This is a very unpopular thing to say and yet the most obvious (to me)... we simply don't have access to the same information they (club/coaches/managers/directors/scouts/agents) do. Perhaps the coaches knew that Sturridge was a time bomb, concerning fitness, and perhaps Liverpool knew that too - hence the lowish fee. Sometimes we ask for the manager to start a player who had a terrible week, for one reason or another, and would never get a start. Obviously the manager cannot let the opponent know what players are available, trained well, slept well, and therefore are more likely to start before every match - opponents would love to know that though.  

Take Iva for example. He's been a starter for so long, it's unfair to compare him to other players who had much lesser roles at the club. However, at this time he should, at most, be playing a much smaller rotation/backup role than he is now. And yet, there he is with every fucking manager that comes in. 

The last one is that Chelsea is not a democracy. It's really down to the owner and he is indeed entitled to his personal preferences. It's difficult to know for sure how much that happens, but like you said, there is evidence that it has happened before. At the very least it does happen when he sacks and hires managers.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

2 hours ago, Robguima said:

Ok that's a difficult one to answer because it's down to perception.

I believe there are very different kinds of pressure. Here's just some of them:

The simplest one is availability: a manager, especially one arriving at the club, can only play whoever is available. Perhaps the club wanted to get rid of some of the deadwood, but there were no buyers (esp at their wages). Some of these same deadwood got more minutes last season than they've seen in quite some time, perhaps to attract a buyer. All speculation, but it is very difficult to sell players when the scouts don't see them perform (good or bad just talk about me).

* I've heard a former Serie A club president in brazil, saying that no other than our beloved Scolari (way before Chelsea) was in love with this very grotesque (skilless) holding mid. Who would start in every fucking game. The president tried approaching Scolari directly and indirectly, until one day he (the former president) went to Scolari and told him that the player was gone, because he had received an offer the club could not refuse (the player went on a free transfer).

Second, money! I don't pretend to know how these deals work behind the scenes, but I do acknowledge that money exerts influence in all areas, including sports. Does Cahill get a pass for being England international at times? Is it nationalism or simply just a subtle influence of money when a pundit spares him of criticism, so that he's a more valuable "asset" (to his employer, the media) when England plays?

Information. This is a very unpopular thing to say and yet the most obvious (to me)... we simply don't have access to the same information they (club/coaches/managers/directors/scouts/agents) do. Perhaps the coaches knew that Sturridge was a time bomb, concerning fitness, and perhaps Liverpool knew that too - hence the lowish fee. Sometimes we ask for the manager to start a player who had a terrible week, for one reason or another, and would never get a start. Obviously the manager cannot let the opponent know what players are available, trained well, slept well, and therefore are more likely to start before every match - opponents would love to know that though.  

Take Iva for example. He's been a starter for so long, it's unfair to compare him to other players who had much lesser roles at the club. However, at this time he should, at most, be playing a much smaller rotation/backup role than he is now. And yet, there he is with every fucking manager that comes in. 

The last one is that Chelsea is not a democracy. It's really down to the owner and he is indeed entitled to his personal preferences. It's difficult to know for sure how much that happens, but like you said, there is evidence that it has happened before. At the very least it does happen when he sacks and hires managers.

Four points again. What is it with you on the number four? 😊

Firstly, your point about information. I don't think it has anything to do with the conversation we've been having but you're right of course. I think I've written more posts making this point in the last few months than I have about anything else. It bemuses me when people ask the question, "Why can't the managers see what we can see?". Of course the managers can see everything we do, plus they have the opportunity to see, and to know, a great deal more. No matter how strange a manager's decision may seem, none of us can be certain that, given the same information he has, we would not do exactly the same.

The reason I say this has nothing to do with the conversation we have been having is because it's not a pressure from above. It's just the manager using knowledge and information to inform the decisions he makes. His own decisions.

On the case of money. Unless we're talking about bribery of the manager, money isn't going to come into it. These financial concerns wouldn't affect the manager. They might of course be a motivation for the club to put pressure on the manager but that just brings us back to where we started. Financial concerns might make the club want to have a player selected but there is no evidence that they have put any manager under pressure to do it.

On Roman. Being the owner does give him the authority, if not actually the entitlement, to issue directives to his staff. Once again this gets us nowhere other than back to where we started.  Even if he might like to do it, there is no evidence that Roman has told managers to pick a certain player.

On availability. I've made that point a number of times myself but in connection with young players. I've argued that perhaps the club is starving the squad of senior players in a bid to force the selection of youngsters. I don't seriously think this is what is going on. I've just put it forward previously as a potential explanation for what we have seen. That is still not direct pressure of the, "pick this player, not that player", type.

[killer1257 3,282]

On 28.9.2016 at 1:28 AM, Miki-Liki said:

He played a major part in Pogba's development, which is why it is assumed that he's good with youth... But as far as I know, Pogba is the only one.

Pogba is from United´s youth system,not from the Juventus youth system.Conte never integrated a youth team player from his own youth system. One could argue that the Juvenus youth system is not on our level

[Eidur the Spider 4,515]

I really hope this is true, the team has needed gutting and refreshing for a while, Conte did a great rebuilding job at Juventus! Hopefully he's given the time to do the same here.

 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

4 hours ago, xPetrCechx said:

I'd be pretty surprised if a man, who reportedly watches every minute of every Chelsea game, needed to be told that the squad isn't good enough. I have no idea of course, but my guess is that the owner knew it well enough even before Antonio arrived and that their conversations have been a lot more nuanced than is being reported.

[Special Juan 27,439]

You would have to be blind not to see under-performing players in this team....They stick out like a sore thumb.

[quickpassnmove 924]

On 9/27/2016 at 3:35 PM, MefiX19 said:

3 fullbacks and a kid that haven't played as CB for ages as back 4? Oscar that plays 4 good games in a season and a overrated kid in midfield? Sorry no. Back four should consist of Alonzo and Azpi as fullbacks And Luiz and Terry as Cb (If not Terry then give Tomori a chance). I vould like to try the midfield of Chalobah as CDM Fabregas and Kante. Kante should roam freely and try to intercept their attacks and try to move the team forward. And i agree on Moses, he should start instead of Wilian without a doubt

Right on.

[mccg 1,528]

1 hour ago, Special Juan said:

You would have to be blind not to see under-performing players in this team....They stick out like a sore thumb.

We our going through a similar transformation over the last few years as the Utd team had , as we had a squad full of legends and character and havn't replaced them(barring afew) ,and afew in the squad that should have left imho, the board over the years seemed to not  have the foresight of what losing these players would have in the future.Hope they back Conte as he seems to have some sort of clue in what is needed and in what direction to go in and what players are worthy of the shirt.

[Miki-Liki 405]

1 hour ago, killer1257 said:

Pogba is from United´s youth system,not from the Juventus youth system.Conte never integrated a youth team player from his own youth system. One could argue that the Juvenus youth system is not on our level

Doesn't matter, he was 19 at that time.

[BoyBlue96 990]

Haha we all knew our squad was full of shit even before the start of the season and now Roman finally starts to see he needs to put some pounds on the table.

[killer1257 3,282]

1 hour ago, Miki-Liki said:

Doesn't matter, he was 19 at that time.

It matters because if that is the case,Mourinho can be considered as a youth lover by integrating Varane and Zouma in his starting line up,but he never ever integrated a player from his own clubs academy.

[Miki-Liki 405]

15 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

It matters because if that is the case,Mourinho can be considered as a youth lover by integrating Varane and Zouma in his starting line up,but he never ever integrated a player from his own clubs academy.

Quite right, but they've hardly become "world class" during his tenure, have they? He didn't even play them that much.

[robsblubot 3,531]

7 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Four points again. What is it with you on the number four? 😊

Firstly, your point about information. I don't think it has anything to do with the conversation we've been having but you're right of course. I think I've written more posts making this point in the last few months than I have about anything else. It bemuses me when people ask the question, "Why can't the managers see what we can see?". Of course the managers can see everything we do, plus they have the opportunity to see, and to know, a great deal more. No matter how strange a manager's decision may seem, none of us can be certain that, given the same information he has, we would not do exactly the same.

The reason I say this has nothing to do with the conversation we have been having is because it's not a pressure from above. It's just the manager using knowledge and information to inform the decisions he makes. His own decisions.

On the case of money. Unless we're talking about bribery of the manager, money isn't going to come into it. These financial concerns wouldn't affect the manager. They might of course be a motivation for the club to put pressure on the manager but that just brings us back to where we started. Financial concerns might make the club want to have a player selected but there is no evidence that they have put any manager under pressure to do it.

On Roman. Being the owner does give him the authority, if not actually the entitlement, to issue directives to his staff. Once again this gets us nowhere other than back to where we started.  Even if he might like to do it, there is no evidence that Roman has told managers to pick a certain player.

On availability. I've made that point a number of times myself but in connection with young players. I've argued that perhaps the club is starving the squad of senior players in a bid to force the selection of youngsters. I don't seriously think this is what is going on. I've just put it forward previously as a potential explanation for what we have seen. That is still not direct pressure of the, "pick this player, not that player", type.

Heh fair enough, but you are the one who specified "from above."

consider that money and roaman personal preferences can exert influence on members of the staff who the manager relies on for information.

in other words, the pressure can be far more subtle than pure briberies - same happens in politics: while bribing is against the law, more and more money flows into politics regardless (lobbying seems very effective).

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

1 hour ago, Robguima said:

Heh fair enough, but you are the one who specified "from above."

consider that money and roaman personal preferences can exert influence on members of the staff who the manager relies on for information.

in other words, the pressure can be far more subtle than pure briberies - same happens in politics: while bribing is against the law, more and more money flows into politics regardless (lobbying seems very effective).

 Yep, that's all fair enough except that you were the one that started to talk about from above. Remember, I replied to comment on your assumption that the club was putting pressure on the managers, i.e. from above. 🙂

[The Mak 4,459]

I think it would be cheaper for Roman to invest in a time machine to take Conte back to 2013, pre-Mourinho.

[El P. 1,354]

Our squad on paper isn't that bad, at least in midfield and attack. But is something like an unsolvable puzzle.

Willian - When you have player like Willian on wing, workhorse who can keep the ball but can't actually produce anything, you need to have one freakishly creative attacking midfielder (nope) and somewhat creative another winger (Hazard, ok) to compensate.

Fabregas - Where to start? When you have Fabregas in midfield, you need to have at least good defense (nope) and two working horses around him (usually we have that), and one of those need to be at least somewhat creative and good on the ball to help him (usually we don't have that).

Matić - With him, tall and slow-ish, you need to have two somewhat mobile midfielders around him. Certainly not Fabregas. And of course, midfielders around him should be creative, at least one of them.

Kante - He is best bet. Is great working machine, good movement, mobile, not bad on the ball. Give him somewhat creative partners, maybe even put someone behind him (Xabi Alonso type of player) and you have hell of a midfield.

Oscar - Can't even go in any combination. He is just not good enough for any top team.

So, as I said, unsolvable puzzle. Fabregas/Matić must leave, preferably both of them. They may come good in some another system, but for sure not in this team.

[Jase 43,479]

33 minutes ago, El P. said:

Our squad on paper isn't that bad, at least in midfield and attack. But is something like an unsolvable puzzle.

Willian - When you have player like Willian on wing, workhorse who can keep the ball but can't actually produce anything, you need to have one freakishly creative attacking midfielder (nope) and somewhat creative another winger (Hazard, ok) to compensate.

Fabregas - Where to start? When you have Fabregas in midfield, you need to have at least good defense (nope) and two working horses around him (usually we have that), and one of those need to be at least somewhat creative and good on the ball to help him (usually we don't have that).

Matić - With him, tall and slow-ish, you need to have two somewhat mobile midfielders around him. Certainly not Fabregas. And of course, midfielders around him should be creative, at least one of them.

Kante - He is best bet. Is great working machine, good movement, mobile, not bad on the ball. Give him somewhat creative partners, maybe even put someone behind him (Xabi Alonso type of player) and you have hell of a midfield.

Oscar - Can't even go in any combination. He is just not good enough for any top team.

So, as I said, unsolvable puzzle. Fabregas/Matić must leave, preferably both of them. They may come good in some another system, but for sure not in this team.

The squad only looks decent on paper to the fellas who don't watch us or have a clue about football. Our squad is just pathetic for a top club on paper and on the pitch. Take Hazard, Costa and Kante out of the side and we're nothing more than a mid-table club.