Juan Mata

[lionsden 4,689]

Year 1: Rambo should of been POTY...

Year 2: I think it was unanimous for Mata (hazard did have good spells though)

The players your using as comparison arent really good examples.....

I always thought Mata vs OScar was exactly the same as Gerrard vs Lampard.... The same Gerrard Jose try to buy at Chelsea, Inter and Madrid..

I'm not interested in opinions (especially biased and agenda driven ones ) rather hard cold FACTS which remains that mata achieved an incredible feat of leading the league in assist for the past 2 seasons. If ever oscar achieves such feat or, to be lenient, comes close to mata's numbers for that period then you can get back to me. for now, there's no contest.

[darrus 422]

I'm not interested in opinions (especially biased and agenda driven ones ) rather hard cold FACTS which remains that mata achieved an incredible feat of leading the league in assist for the past 2 seasons. If ever oscar achieves such feat or, to be lenient, comes close to mata's numbers for that period then you can get back to me. for now, there's no contest.

If we were talking about individual sports than this opinion could be justified.

But we're talking about football players, and a team sport - and here individual stats mean much less than the team's performance. So the one who makes team as a whole play well is the better player, if we use logic.

Though with Mata's stats this season - 1 assist and 0 goals in 13 league matches - I'm not sure what this argument is about anyway. Or should places in the team be granted for past achievements? If so, Pele would still be playing for Brazil.

[Korea 734]

I'm not interested in opinions (especially biased and agenda driven ones ) rather hard cold FACTS which remains that mata achieved an incredible feat of leading the league in assist for the past 2 seasons. If ever oscar achieves such feat or, to be lenient, comes close to mata's numbers for that period then you can get back to me. for now, there's no contest.

Stats are good sometimes......

However, Mata the last 2 seasons never had to put a defensive shift like Oscar did the past 2 seasons and hazard is doing this season.... In addition, the tactics were quite different for Oscar playin as the 10, than last season when Mata was.......

Goal wise, I think either hazard or oscar can replicate Mata stats, but assists wise, it might be difficult cause both of them arent good in set pieces (or not yet).. I think what your forgetting though is that Mata isnt behind only Oscar. Its both Willian and Hazard hes behind...

Also, the comparison you use before with Rambo vs Vidal/toure really isnt the same thing... If anything, its more Vidal vs Pirlo (current age)..

edit....

Truth be told is, that you can use the same situation Mata is in with Spain..

How many assists +goals does Mata have vs Silva/Santi? Yet, the latter 2 are always getting on the team before Mata...

[lionsden 4,689]

To be honest the ultimate measure of any player is whether their contribution helps us win matches. Oscar might not fill out a stats sheet like Mata but his contribution to this team has been fantastic. He's been the best player in a team which is far better than last year's and we haven't missed Mata.

Mata's problem now is that I'm not entirely sure what he brings to this team.

It's funny because no one on this forum and anywhere else said that last season when mata's confidence was still intact and wasn't required to do things he wasn't physically capable of doing. when he was allowed to pull the strings and play his natural game, he was undoubtedly our best player and instrumental to many of our victories last season. and he completely overshadowed and outperformed this same oscar, who was a regular feature in the team, last season.

[darrus 422]

It's funny because no one on this forum and anywhere else said that last season when mata's confidence was still intact and wasn't required to do things he wasn't physically capable of doing. when he was allowed to pull the strings and play his natural game, he was undoubtedly our best player and instrumental to many of our victories last season. and he completely overshadowed and outperformed this same oscar, who was a regular feature in the team, last season.

Yes, but the team was 10 points off the top and out of the title run by Christmas. Go figure.

[lionsden 4,689]

If we were talking about individual sports than this opinion could be justified.

But we're talking about football players, and a team sport - and here individual stats mean much less than the team's performance. So the one who makes team as a whole play well is the better player, if we use logic.

Though with Mata's stats this season - 1 assist and 0 goals in 13 league matches - I'm not sure what this argument is about anyway. Or should places in the team be granted for past achievements? If so, Pele would still be playing for Brazil.

Which begs the important question. are we playing better quality of football or playing better generally than last season or just simply achieving better result as performance and result are 2 completely different things e.g UCL man utd- chelsea 2008,Chelsea- Barca 2009 VS chelsea-barca and bayern 2012 where the performance of the former was significantly superior while the latter produced better result.

so i ask are we necessarily playing better this season and has oscar's influence this season being greater than mata's last season.

[The only place to be 11,313]

It's funny because no one on this forum and anywhere else said that last season when mata's confidence was still intact and wasn't required to do things he wasn't physically capable of doing. when he was allowed to pull the strings and play his natural game, he was undoubtedly our best player and instrumental to many of our victories last season. and he completely overshadowed and outperformed this same oscar, who was a regular feature in the team, last season.

And we finished third in the league miles of the pace and crashed out of the CL? There are other factors but so many times last season we looked disjointed whereas this season we actually seem to be building a consistent game plan based around a pressing game and a fast attacking system that suits Hazard, Willian and Oscar.

You're right that it seemed incomprehensible that Mata wouldn't be at the centre of things last season, but some people did ask questions about how he would fit into Mourinho's team. Also Oscar was playing on the right a lot last season which really didn't suit him. Now he's in the middle and he's an early favourite for this season's Player of the Year.

[lionsden 4,689]

Yes, but the team was 10 points off the top and out of the title run by Christmas. Go figure.

I thought you said it was a team sport. so the manager, the other 10 players and the entire squad shouldn't be held accountable and all the blame should go to our best player mata. contradictory much?.

By the same token our improved result this season is a result of Jose and the entire squad rather than one individual player.

two can play that game

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Chelsea's Juan Mata ready to fight for his place and will not hand in transfer request

With KDB as good as gone, Mata is definitely staying. Until the summer, at least.

[darrus 422]

so i ask are we necessarily playing better this season and has oscar's influence this season being greater than mata's last season.

We're playing fine the last couple of matches, but more importantly we're achieving results, and even more importantly -we're doing it even playing badly. We have AMs that are versatile and not fixed to a position and therefore have more variety in attack, and even with our striker problems we can rely on AMs to score. Oscar and Hazard both can play in the center and on the side, both have their share of goal sand assists this season while helping to cover pivot problems at the same time. So we are getting things done - and recently we are getting things done well.

I thought you said it was a team sport. where's the accountability for the manager and the rest of the 10 players and entire squad? contradictory much?. By the same token our improved result this season is a result of Jose and the entire squad rather than one individual player.

two can play that game

I'm not even surprised that you've missed the point. Yes, now we have a team that is still being built but already has the outline and this team produces results. Last year's system allowed Mata to produce stats by himself but was not enough for a team to challenge for the top spot. This season no matter who plays #10 - in some matches it is Oscar, in some it is Hazard - we get better results overall. That's a work of 11 players and the manager.

[lionsden 4,689]

We're playing fine the last couple of matches, but more importantly we're achieving results, and even more importantly -we're doing it even playing badly. We have AMs that are versatile and not fixed to a position and therefore have more variety in attack, and even with our striker problems we can rely on AMs to score. Oscar and Hazard both can play in the center and on the side, both have their share of goal sand assists this season while helping to cover pivot problems at the same time. So we are getting things done - and recently we are getting things done well.

I'm not even surprised that you've missed the point. Yes, now we have a team that is still being built but already has the outline and this team produces results. Last year's system allowed Mata to produce stats by himself but was not enough for a team to challenge for the top spot. This season no matter who plays #10 - in some matches it is Oscar, in some it is Hazard - we get better results overall. That's a work of 11 players and the manager.

Which in conclusion makes oscar a superior playmaker and footballer to mata right?. by your logic carrick is a better player than Gerrard in his prime because the former won more games and trophies with his team and was a regular fixture of the title winning man utd teams. brilliant argument that.

[Azpinator 2,325]

Which in conclusion makes oscar a superior playmaker and footballer to mata right?. by your logic carrick is a better player than Gerrard in his prime because the former won more games and trophies with his team and was a regular fixture of the title winning man utd teams. brilliant argument that.

Exactly, it's like saying Torres is superior to Suarez.

[lionsden 4,689]

Exactly, it's like saying Torres is superior to Suarez.

I still can't believe torres is one of the most decorated players still active. he's one lucky boy that's for sure

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Never thought the day would come when this thread would also end up as a hilarious one...

[darrus 422]

Which in conclusion makes oscar a superior playmaker and footballer to mata right?. by your logic carrick is a better player than Gerrard in his prime because the former won more games and trophies with his team and was a regular fixture of the title winning man utd teams. brilliant argument that.

You're missing the point again.

Why even the question arises of who is superior to whom, for God's sake? What does it matter? The only thing that matters is team results and position in the table. The systems should be compared, not the players.

Let's try it this way. The system that is built around Mata or any other player is wrong by default because if said player tomorrow gets an injury or just slump in form you have no team and no strategy. The system that works regardless of players is better because it has ways to adapt. In this case yes, Oscar who can play center, right or left and still impact the team's performance is better than Mata who can play only one position and only when he has space. But more important is that you can replace Oscar with Hazard or even Willian and still have the team work and get results.

Having good players doesn't by default win matches - Real Madrid in 2000's is a prime example. Having one outstanding player who doesn't fit in the system is not going to get you results - Ibrahimovich's career in Barcelona is an example.

A system built around strengths of most of your players and can be easily modified is much more productive. Having talented players like we have in this system just makes it better.

Noone argues that Suarez is better player than Torres, but it only proves the initial point - relying on one good player to win is not working.

[lionsden 4,689]

You're missing the point again.

Why even the question arises of who is superior to whom, for God's sake? What does it matter? The only thing that matters is team results and position in the table. The systems should be compared, not the players.

Let's try it this way. The system that is built around Mata or any other player is wrong by default because if said player tomorrow gets an injury or just slump in form you have no team and no strategy. The system that works regardless of players is better because it has ways to adapt. In this case yes, Oscar who can play center, right or left and still impact the team's performance is better than Mata who can play only one position and only when he has space. But more important is that you can replace Oscar with Hazard or even Willian and still have the team work and get results.

Having good players doesn't by default win matches - Real Madrid in 2000's is a prime example. Having one outstanding player who doesn't fit in the system is not going to get you results - Ibrahimovich's career in Barcelona is an example.

A system built around strengths of most of your players and can be easily modified is much more productive. Having talented players like we have in this system just makes it better.

Noone argues that Suarez is better player than Torres, but it only proves the initial point - relying on one good player to win is not working.

So basically the individual quality and talent doesn't matter much, as long as the system is right and every player pulling in the same direction and committed to the system. well I will like to see Fergie, Jose, pep or any other "world class" manager out there win major titles with Crystal palace and a bunch of lee cattermoles

[darrus 422]

So basically the individual quality and talent doesn't matter much, as long as the system is right and every player pulling in the same direction and committed to the system. well I will like to see Fergie, Jose, pep or any other "world class" manager out there win major titles with Crystal palace and a bunch of lee cattermoles

And third time in a row you're missing the point. Who talks of Crystal Palace? We are not them. But you don't even have to go far for examples. When Inter played Barcelona Pep had much better players overall, Jose had better system and came out on top. Fergie didn't start with the world beaters. Pep himself worked with a system, not with talented players, and as far as I know without Messi Barcelona is still beating opponents by 4-0 scoreline because they are not dependant on one player. Jose with Leiria beat Sporting and Porto, Jose's Porto beat United, Freiburg taking points off Bayern, Atletico beating Real etc etc.

Once more - one (1) player no matter how good he is will not win you anything. A bunch of great players who have no clue will not win you anything. Good players who know what they are doing on the pitch are winning cups. It's that simple.

Say we had Mata as the one player we are relying to pull us through this season - he's had 1 goal and 2 assists in 15 matches, where would we be now?

[Stingray 9,441]

Chelsea's Juan Mata ready to fight for his place and will not hand in transfer request

Ahhh Sparta Time !! Go Juan!