🇪🇸 Juan Mata

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

Really sad but he seems to need to leave for his own good. Pity really, in another team like Arsenal/Liverpool he would absolutely manage to own it, just a shame we have too rich of talents here, you can't have everything I suppose. And he look like he is gonna become Quaresma for Mou, he signed him for huge fees then just decide to shift him off in the end because it doesn't work out, the same look to be happening here.

I dont think he would own a team like Arsenal. Hell, Cazorla is pretty much in the same position as Mata since the arrival of Ozil. There is only one captain of the ship there, and if Mata could be a deputy he would be doing fine right now with Oscar.

[Mouri_Matic 560]

I dont think he would own a team like Arsenal. Hell, Cazorla is pretty much in the same position as Mata since the arrival of Ozil. There is only one captain of the ship there, and if Mata could be a deputy he would be doing fine right now with Oscar.

Yeah I guess Arsenal wasn't too good of an example since they got Ozil and Cazorla, who are just as good if not better than Juan on their days. But in general my point is still clear though. someone like Mata deserve to be have the team build around him and play every week. Like Silva at City, Ozil at Arsenal, Coutinho at Liverpool(atm), Modric at Madrid, Iniestea at Barca...etc He don't deserve to be rotated once every 2 weeks no matter how good/bad he had performed.

[lionsden 4,689]

I find it ironic that Jose accused rafa of sucking the confidence out of JT (which I agree with) when that's pretty much the same thing he has done to our best player for the past 2 seasons

[AndersonBLUE 819]

I'm not so sure, I don't think he will be sold. I doubt we would get the right price for him currently anyway. At least not in January.

[Tomo 21,751]

Still think it's bang out of order the way Jose has treated a two season running player of the year at Chelsea football club. Jaun deserves to be treated far better and the lack of respect is complete and utter bullshit on Joses behalf.

I find it ironic that Jose accused rafa of sucking the confidence out of JT (which I agree with) when that's pretty much the same thing he has done to our best player for the past 2 seasons

Mata has started 7 out of the last 10 premier-league games, only Hazard out of our AM's has started more PL matches in the same period.

This Jose hates Mata conspiracy is getting a little bit old.

[yuvala 2,167]

Mata has started 7 out of the last 10 premier-league games, only Hazard out of our AM's has started more PL matches in the same period.

This Jose hates Mata conspiracy is getting a little bit old.

To be fair Oscar was injured..

Though I dont think he "hates" Mata, he's just not his kind of player, apparently.

[Barbara 15,149]

To be fair Oscar was injured..

Though I dont think he "hates" Mata, he's just not his kind of player, apparently.

Well the point is Mata had plenty of opportunities to be remotely close to what he was last year and he didn't. He's far from the guy he was last season and if he's 'moody' enough not to perform at that level because of preferences Mourinho may have had earlier the season (and even currently) then there's something wrong with his attitude... Some people defend that the defensive responsibilities is what affected his game. I agree to a certain extent... but a good assist when he had plenty of balls on his feet in the attacking third, around the opponent's box has nothing to do with his defensive responsibilities. Or a shot on goal (that he refuses to take). His numbers tell the story. 2 assists (one of which from a set-piece) and 1 goal.

Bottom line imo is that Oscar started very well the season and Mata was injured. Then Mata came back from injury, but he was completely out of form and couldn't displace Oscar. Then he got many matches starting in September - even if he's missed many matches too. then it was Oscar's turn to get injured and Mata still didn't capitalize those many chances (and minutes) he's got. Mata didn't displace Oscar from the team, Oscar's low production since the injury did. If anything Willian (who had less matches and minutes than both and who's in a process of adapting to English football after coming from RUSSIAN league) is playing better than both right now and people are still giving all sort of excuses for Mata not playing even nearly what he's used to. Some of those excuses were valid reasons a few months ago, but right now they're nothing but excuses imo. He's got a confidence vote, he's played in the CAM position (I've posted a few heat maps here the other day to correct people on their wrong assumption he hasn't, although he does play in the wing too), he's got consecutive matches and plenty of minutes. The only thing he doesn't have now is a team built around him and if that's the only way he can produce what he did last season (or even marginally close, as there's an abyss right now between last season and this), then that's a huge limitation he's got imo.

For a team to be built around a player they have to give the kind of return Cristiano and Messi give. Even this year's Balon D'Or contender, Ribery, doesn't have a team built around him... Mata is nowhere near those guys (and a few others), so it doesn't justify Benitez's choice - which at the end showed why. He's built a team around Mata and all Chelsea got in addition to being kicked out of domestic cups and increasing the gap to the eventual champions , was winning a far from brilliant Europa League.

And before people think I'm blaming Mata, I'M NOT, I'm blaming the wrong system and also assessing that while very talented and good, Mata isn't a player good enough to have a system built around him because he doesn't produce enough to take this team to the competitiveness we can have.

[remains of the day 564]

Barbara - I certainly do agree with your point that Mata did have opportunities to displace Oscar and I also agree with you that he failed to capitalize on those opportunities (the way Willian seemingly has) particularly during the period Oscar was injured. Definitely a very valid point. But I also think something you're not taking into consideration is that Mata - like De Bruyne (I would even add Ozil to that list) - these players' game is about creative subtleties........their not dribblers, they don't particularly have much pace, they don't make a lot of tackles and they tend not to take a lot of shots. They're players who have great awareness of space, great awareness of their teammates and they see passes that many wouldn't. When a player's game is centered on those finer details, well it becomes harder for them to make an instant impact if they're not consistently starting matches. Willian (along with Hazard) are different. They're dribblers, they're strong on the ball and they tend to play with high intensity. These skill sets give then an advantage and enables them to still perform well even if they're not starting every match. So in commenting on how Willian has been able to 'take his chances' while Mata hasn't, I think it's important to keep in mind that their playing styles are vastly different and that alone singularly influences how much of an impact they're able to make when their not given regular playing time.

[Barbara 15,149]

Barbara - I certainly do agree with your point that Mata did have opportunities to displace Oscar and I also agree with you that he failed to capitalize on those opportunities (the way Willian seemingly has) particularly during the period Oscar was injured. Definitely a very valid point. But I also think something you're not taking into consideration is that Mata - like De Bruyne (I would even add Ozil to that list) - these players' game is about creative subtleties........their not dribblers, they don't particularly have much pace, they don't make a lot of tackles and they tend not to take a lot of shots. They're players who have great awareness of space, great awareness of their teammates and they see passes that many wouldn't. When a player's game is centered on those finer details, well it becomes harder for them to make an instant impact if they're not consistently starting matches. Willian (along with Hazard) are different. They're dribblers, they're strong on the ball and they tend to play with high intensity. These skill sets give then an advantage and enables them to still perform well even if they're not starting every match. So in commenting on how Willian has been able to 'take his chances' while Mata hasn't, I think it's important to keep in mind that their playing styles are vastly different and that alone singularly influences how much of an impact they're able to make when their not given regular playing time.

Those are some very valid points. I just can't find an answer for Mata producing so little for us this year from mid-October on - when he's started more games and had more chances. I may agree players like him need regular playing time more than others (although in theory should be the opposite. Pace and physical play should be affected by lack of playing more than vision), but can we say he hasn't had regular player time in the last two months? Since the international break in October, Chelsea had 14 matches. He's started 7 and played as a sub in another (missing 6). 8 matches (actually 10 as he's played twice for Spain in november) in 2 months don't seem like lack of regular playing time imo... it's basically playing once a week...

That's why I said I don't buy it as a reason anymore, but as an excuse. Someone who's been playing every week for a team for the last two months can't really complain about lack of regular playing time.

That's his breakdown (note that November also had an international break, which is why there's a big gap, but he's played for Spain both on the 19th and 16th of november, meaning he's missed a week of football after coming back to Chelsea in the 23rd and 26th, being back on Dec 1st.

19-Oct Off 58 min 22-Oct Unused Substitute 27-Oct Unused Substitute 29-Oct Off 90 min 02-Nov Off 61 min 06-Nov Unused Substitute 09-Nov On 72 23-Nov Unused Substitute 26-Nov Unused Substitute 01-Dec Started 04-Dec Off 80 min 07-Dec Started 11-Dec Unused Substitute 14-Dec Off 61 min

[Jase 43,479]

Well the point is Mata had plenty of opportunities to be remotely close to what he was last year and he didn't. He's far from the guy he was last season and if he's 'moody' enough not to perform at that level because of preferences Mourinho may have had earlier the season (and even currently) then there's something wrong with his attitude... Some people defend that the defensive responsibilities is what affected his game. I agree to a certain extent... but a good assist when he had plenty of balls on his feet in the attacking third, around the opponent's box has nothing to do with his defensive responsibilities. Or a shot on goal (that he refuses to take). His numbers tell the story. 2 assists (one of which from a set-piece) and 1 goal.

Bottom line imo is that Oscar started very well the season and Mata was injured. Then Mata came

back from injury, but he was completely out of form and couldn't displace Oscar. Then he got many matches starting in September - even if he's missed many matches too. then it was Oscar's turn to get injured and Mata still didn't capitalize those many chances (and minutes) he's got. Mata didn't displace Oscar from the team, Oscar's low production since the injury did. If anything Willian (who had less matches and minutes than both and who's in a process of adapting to English football after coming from RUSSIAN league) is playing better than both right now and people are still giving all sort of excuses for Mata not playing even nearly what he's used to. Some of those excuses were valid reasons a few months ago, but right now they're nothing but excuses imo. He's got a confidence vote, he's played in the CAM position (I've posted a few heat maps here the other day to correct people on their wrong assumption he hasn't, although he does play in the wing too), he's got consecutive matches and plenty of minutes. The only thing he doesn't have now is a team built around him and if that's the only way he can produce what he did last season (or even marginally close, as there's an abyss right now between last season and this), then that's a huge limitation he's got imo.

For a team to be built around a player they have to give the kind of return Cristiano and Messi give. Even this year's Balon D'Or contender, Ribery, doesn't have a team built around him... Mata is nowhere near those guys (and a few others), so it doesn't justify Benitez's choice - which at the end showed why. He's built a team around Mata and all Chelsea got in addition to being kicked out of domestic cups and increasing the gap to the eventual champions , was winning a far from brilliant Europa League.

And before people think I'm blaming Mata, I'M NOT, I'm blaming the wrong system and also assessing that while very talented and good, Mata isn't a player good enough to have a system built around him because he doesn't produce enough to take this team to the competitiveness we can have.

Even if the heat map did show Mata did play in the no.10 position, it is different when he drifts into that position from wider areas on and off during matches and permanently playing like he was before, hence his form then was more consistent and better than now. And besides, choo choo spoke of the different role Mata has now under Mourinho than before. Tough to regain his form of old when he seems to be in and out of the team and not used or rather not suitable in a system that Mourinho is trying to implement here.

[lionsden 4,689]

Mata has started 7 out of the last 10 premier-league games, only Hazard out of our AM's has started more PL matches in the same period.

This Jose hates Mata conspiracy is getting a little bit old.

So?. From the way Jose came out and openly pronounced oscar has his undisputed no10 which also reflected in team selection,to criticizing his work ethic on the pitch in public (he could have told mata to work harder on improving his game tactically behind closed doors). and those 7 games he's started in the last 10 epl matches, how many has he been allowed to finish without been substituted in the 60th minute or so, and would he have started majority of those matches if oscar hadn't been injured. also how many matches has he been started in his best position as a no 10?

Anyone without the blue tinted spec can see Jose hasn't handled the mata situation very intelligently and fair at all. relegating a team's best player for the past 2 seasons to the bench is not only bad for individual and team morale but terrible man management which only players with the toughest mentality can bounce back from immediately.

Is it a coincidence that Mata's efficiency in terms of assist and goal scoring has deteriorated since the arrival of mourinho? mata was our primary weapon on the offensive end last season, every thing literally went through him and for a manager to make it known publicly that he's no longer the chief offensive orchestrator of the team isn't exactly a morale booster.

Mata deserves more respect than jose has shown him, not only for his status at the club pre mourinho, also his professionalism on and off the pitch.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Well the point is Mata had plenty of opportunities to be remotely close to what he was last year and he didn't. He's far from the guy he was last season and if he's 'moody' enough not to perform at that level because of preferences Mourinho may have had earlier the season (and even currently) then there's something wrong with his attitude... Some people defend that the defensive responsibilities is what affected his game. I agree to a certain extent... but a good assist when he had plenty of balls on his feet in the attacking third, around the opponent's box has nothing to do with his defensive responsibilities. Or a shot on goal (that he refuses to take). His numbers tell the story. 2 assists (one of which from a set-piece) and 1 goal.

Bottom line imo is that Oscar started very well the season and Mata was injured. Then Mata came back from injury, but he was completely out of form and couldn't displace Oscar. Then he got many matches starting in September - even if he's missed many matches too. then it was Oscar's turn to get injured and Mata still didn't capitalize those many chances (and minutes) he's got. Mata didn't displace Oscar from the team, Oscar's low production since the injury did. If anything Willian (who had less matches and minutes than both and who's in a process of adapting to English football after coming from RUSSIAN league) is playing better than both right now and people are still giving all sort of excuses for Mata not playing even nearly what he's used to. Some of those excuses were valid reasons a few months ago, but right now they're nothing but excuses imo. He's got a confidence vote, he's played in the CAM position (I've posted a few heat maps here the other day to correct people on their wrong assumption he hasn't, although he does play in the wing too), he's got consecutive matches and plenty of minutes. The only thing he doesn't have now is a team built around him and if that's the only way he can produce what he did last season (or even marginally close, as there's an abyss right now between last season and this), then that's a huge limitation he's got imo.

For a team to be built around a player they have to give the kind of return Cristiano and Messi give. Even this year's Balon D'Or contender, Ribery, doesn't have a team built around him... Mata is nowhere near those guys (and a few others), so it doesn't justify Benitez's choice - which at the end showed why. He's built a team around Mata and all Chelsea got in addition to being kicked out of domestic cups and increasing the gap to the eventual champions , was winning a far from brilliant Europa League.

And before people think I'm blaming Mata, I'M NOT, I'm blaming the wrong system and also assessing that while very talented and good, Mata isn't a player good enough to have a system built around him because he doesn't produce enough to take this team to the competitiveness we can have.

I disagree he's been given the opportunity or that he isn't good enough to build a team around. Two straight years as player of the year for Chelsea proves that he is certainly a good enough player to be playing regularly in his favoured position. I really do think that Mata just isn't ever going to fit in the system Mourinho wants. Managers can, to a large extent, make players succeed or fail. For example, if Mourinho required Ronaldo to work more defensively and to pass in a tight system, then he would obviously be a much worse player. A lot of Ronaldo's success is based around the fact that Real Madrid is set up for Ronaldo and that he has free reign to do whatever he wants even if it means he shoots 10 times in a game from 35 yards. If Mourinho had Ozil try to play like Mata is now, he'd also have struggled. The point is not just that Mata has played largely out of position (which he has) it's that the way Mourinho wants Mata to play is guaranteed so make sure he isn't productive. Mata needs to be in space to create and to be able to have some freedom to move. He needs to get the ball in dangerous areas and do something with it. Our system doesn't allow him any freedom. He barely touches the ball in dangerous areas at all. Mata has taken a total of 10 shots in 9 starts which is the lowest ratio of any of our attacking midfielders. (Yet, still also has the best key pass-start ratio). I understand Chelsea allowed Mata to shirk his defensive duties a little too much the last couple of years, but an in-form Mata is exactly what we're lacking and the main reason we haven't been able to break down teams. There is a balance between getting him to do more defensive work and sidelining him. Chelsea need more balance in their attack because right now it's just dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot from distance. I would have loved to have seen Mata been given a few games in a row as a #10 starting with Hazard and Willian/Schurrle on the right but that isn't going to happen with Mourinho. Mata is going to need to be sold because he is never going to work in Mourinho's system but that says as much about Mourinho's inflexibility as a manager as it does Mata's as a player.

BTW, I don't think Oscar has done anything to earn the #10 role either and this is part of what I was talking about allowing players to succeed or fail. Oscar and Hazard are given every chance to succeed and the freedom in the system to do so. Oscar has 5 goals and 0 assists in 14 games which is hardly setting the world on fire and after his great start to the season, he's actually been pretty poor for quite a while. (1 goal and 0 assists in his last 6 Premier League games, 1 goal, 1 assist in his last 9 games overall including a lot of games where he's been invisible).

[FabHazard 655]

Well the point is Mata had plenty of opportunities to be remotely close to what he was last year and he didn't. He's far from the guy he was last season and if he's 'moody' enough not to perform at that level because of preferences Mourinho may have had earlier the season (and even currently) then there's something wrong with his attitude... Some people defend that the defensive responsibilities is what affected his game. I agree to a certain extent... but a good assist when he had plenty of balls on his feet in the attacking third, around the opponent's box has nothing to do with his defensive responsibilities. Or a shot on goal (that he refuses to take). His numbers tell the story. 2 assists (one of which from a set-piece) and 1 goal.

Bottom line imo is that Oscar started very well the season and Mata was injured. Then Mata came back from injury, but he was completely out of form and couldn't displace Oscar. Then he got many matches starting in September - even if he's missed many matches too. then it was Oscar's turn to get injured and Mata still didn't capitalize those many chances (and minutes) he's got. Mata didn't displace Oscar from the team, Oscar's low production since the injury did. If anything Willian (who had less matches and minutes than both and who's in a process of adapting to English football after coming from RUSSIAN league) is playing better than both right now and people are still giving all sort of excuses for Mata not playing even nearly what he's used to. Some of those excuses were valid reasons a few months ago, but right now they're nothing but excuses imo. He's got a confidence vote, he's played in the CAM position (I've posted a few heat maps here the other day to correct people on their wrong assumption he hasn't, although he does play in the wing too), he's got consecutive matches and plenty of minutes. The only thing he doesn't have now is a team built around him and if that's the only way he can produce what he did last season (or even marginally close, as there's an abyss right now between last season and this), then that's a huge limitation he's got imo.

For a team to be built around a player they have to give the kind of return Cristiano and Messi give. Even this year's Balon D'Or contender, Ribery, doesn't have a team built around him... Mata is nowhere near those guys (and a few others), so it doesn't justify Benitez's choice - which at the end showed why. He's built a team around Mata and all Chelsea got in addition to being kicked out of domestic cups and increasing the gap to the eventual champions , was winning a far from brilliant Europa League.

And before people think I'm blaming Mata, I'M NOT, I'm blaming the wrong system and also assessing that while very talented and good, Mata isn't a player good enough to have a system built around him because he doesn't produce enough to take this team to the competitiveness we can have.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his attitude....and infact he has the best attitude and personality as a professional player.To suggest that mata was moody is wrong...i have seen him in all matches this season and he gave his 100% every match..sadly he is not suited to mourinho's system he is not able to produce goals and assists like last season.I think he is trying to adapt to the new role and i hope that he will be the player he was in last 2 seasons.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Oscar has 5 goals and 0 assists in 14 games which is hardly setting the world on fire and after his great start to the season, he's actually been pretty poor for quite a while. (1 goal and 0 assists in his last 6 Premier League games, 1 goal, 1 assist in his last 9 games overall including a lot of games where he's been invisible).

1 goal and 1 assist isn't good enough.

2 goals and 1 assist isn't much better.

That's the stats in La Liga for Iniesta and Xavi respectively, but these players make the team tick. Oscar has been at the heart of pretty much everything good we've done this season and has about half-a-dozen man of the match awards.

I agree with what you say about Mata not really fitting Mourinho's system and that's a shame because he's a great guy but if we're going to establish an identity then maybe he has to move on. If you look at the Musondas and Bogas that we're hoping to develop and take up that number 10 role going forward then they combine skill and vision with a physicality that more closely resembles Oscar's play than Mata's. Maybe he can reinvent himself as a left-sided inside forward but I'm not sure.

[Reddish-Blue 2,506]

1 goal and 1 assist isn't good enough.

2 goals and 1 assist isn't much better.

That's the stats in La Liga for Iniesta and Xavi respectively, but these players make the team tick. Oscar has been at the heart of pretty much everything good we've done this season and has about half-a-dozen man of the match awards.

I agree with what you say about Mata not really fitting Mourinho's system and that's a shame because he's a great guy but if we're going to establish an identity then maybe he has to move on. If you look at the Musondas and Bogas that we're hoping to develop and take up that number 10 role going forward then they combine skill and vision with a physicality that more closely resembles Oscar's play than Mata's. Maybe he can reinvent himself as a left-sided inside forward but I'm not sure.

We can talk about all the youngsters we're trying to develop...but realistically, how many of them will get a chance at Chelsea?

[dee25 1,044]

1 goal and 1 assist isn't good enough. 2 goals and 1 assist isn't much better. That's the stats in La Liga for Iniesta and Xavi respectively, but these players make the team tick. Oscar has been at the heart of pretty much everything good we've done this season and has about half-a-dozen man of the match awards. I agree with what you say about Mata not really fitting Mourinho's system and that's a shame because he's a great guy but if we're going to establish an identity then maybe he has to move on. If you look at the Musondas and Bogas that we're hoping to develop and take up that number 10 role going forward then they combine skill and vision with a physicality that more closely resembles Oscar's play than Mata's. Maybe he can reinvent himself as a left-sided inside forward but I'm not sure.

Don't think Xavi & Iniesta's sats can be used as a relevant comparison. Xavi plays deeper. Iniesta has been inconsistent this season and last (by his standards). Also Barcelona's system completely centres around Messi.

What kind of an identity can a system really have if the no.10 hasn't managed to make a single assist in 14 games?

[The only place to be 11,313]

Don't think Xavi & Iniesta's sats can be used as a relevant comparison. Xavi plays deeper. Iniesta has been inconsistent this season and last (by his standards). Also Barcelona's system completely centres around Messi.

What kind of an identity can a system really have if the no.10 hasn't managed to make a single assist in 14 games?

They're integral cogs to the way Barca play and whilst they may not make that all important final ball they bring others into the game. That's what Oscar has done in many of his games this year.

The simple answer might just be to say an identity that doesn't require the number 10 to make that final pass.

[bushman 2,043]

To develop youngsters at Chelsea, are you for real or who is on drugs here ?

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Don't think Xavi & Iniesta's sats can be used as a relevant comparison. Xavi plays deeper. Iniesta has been inconsistent this season and last (by his standards). Also Barcelona's system completely centres around Messi.

What kind of an identity can a system really have if the no.10 hasn't managed to make a single assist in 14 games?

The team relies on Xavi and Fabregas to pull the strings . Just cause he is deeper doesn't mean that the team doesn't revolve on the two of them. Barcelona's system no longer centres around Messi. Their main complaint last season was that they had no plan B. Martino employed the concept of using verticalidad and shifted the tactics revolving around Messi as plan B. They are much more effecient with Fabregas and Alex Song playing as false 9's , and Busquets + Xavi recycling and distributing possession.

[dee25 1,044]

They're integral cogs to the way Barca play and whilst they may not make that all important final ball they bring others into the game. That's what Oscar has done in many of his games this year. The simple answer might just be to say an identity that doesn't require the number 10 to make that final pass.

Agreed. Xavi and Iniesta bring others into the game but then there's also Fabregas who often is the one that provides the final pass.

If we're going to play with 2 dribblers on the wings then the no.10 needs to be able to provide incisive passes into the box otherwise you'll struggle to penetrate the opponent's defence. The point of the no.10 role is to give freedom of movement to the player occupying the position so he is able to influence the game, get into dangerous areas and get on the ball as often as possible.

If our system isn't set up for the no.10 to be a playmaker then the creative outlet needs to come from somewhere else but it hasn't so far. If you look at Bayern last season, Muller who was employed in the 10 role wasn't that creative and he played a similar role to Oscar. That worked for them though because they had schweinsteiger behind Muller and they had two extremely good attacking fullbacks.