The English Football Thread

[Vesper 29,221]

4 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

the shit is, if we only get 6 points out of the last 3 games, utd and leicester can play out a 0-0 and both leapfrog us. that however is super hypothetical as idoubt they will pick up the same number of points till then.

yes, we SOOOOOOOO need to hope SU and Mou (gag) can smash those foxy fucks

and Wolves drop points

[Pizy 18,537]

Is Maddison done for the season? If so I think they could legit lose all 3. Sheff United and Spuds are so inconsistent that you never know which side will show up, but I could easily see Leicester losing to both of those. And then it's United on the last day which, if it still means anything by then, you'd back United to win.

[Laylabelle 9,408]

Get tommrow done..

[Vesper 29,221]

31 minutes ago, Jason said:

5 teams from the same country can qualify for the Champions League. 

well, they (or Wolves) would have to win the EL and NOT finish in the top 4 in the league

which is possible but certainly not in the bag

the 7 best teams still left are

Inter

Manure

Wolves

Sevilla

Roma

Leverkusen

Shakhtar (don't laugh they have won it before, with Willian and Fernandinho, and one of the best-named fullbacks ever, LB Razvan Rat lolol, who actually played for West Ham 6 years ago, and 500 games overall)

 

 

[Special Juan 27,551]

That should be Lampards team talk done after that result.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

We just need two wins from the last three games. 

[Vesper 29,221]

1 hour ago, kellzfresh said:

We just need two wins from the last three games. 

not if Leicester win their next 2

if we get 6 points out of the 3 games we are at 66

Leicester, if they beat both SU and Spuds will be on 65

if we lose to wolves on the last day (or beat them but lose to Liverpool), Leicester goes to the CL with a draw (based on on GD) or a win versus manure (again if they win the next two games)

even if we draw with Wolves or Victimpool  and win the other two games (so we would be at 67) Leicester goes to the CL if they beat Manure (they would have 68 points) after winning the next two

but even if they draw one and win one (so they are at 63 points) and then beat Manure, we crash out unless we win 2 and draw one.

beating Norwich and wolves or Liverpool, but losing to the other leaves us wide open to getting fucked by Leicester, as does even a draw and 2 wins by us if they win all three

Leicester's next two games are MASSIVE for us, we need them to LOSE one of them, or draw both, then 2 wins by us and we are 100% CL bound

 

finally, in theory, even Wolves could catch us, IF they win out  (they play shit Burnley and shit Crystal Palace) and we only get 1 win or a draw and win (and the loss is to them)

if we only beat Norwich and lose to the dippers and Wolves, we are on 63 points, wolves, IF they win out, will have 64

and I explain another way in the next post we get fucked by Wolves even with a win v Norwich and a draw v the Dippers

[Vesper 29,221]

and to realllly fuck us, even if Leicester collapses, and we win against Norwich, DRAW against Liverpool (so go into the Wolves game on 64) if they (Wolves) beat us (and win against those other two shit teams) they STILL could crash us out (hello GD nightmare, as they are only 3 back of us)

let me explain that last scenario better

we are +3 GD on Wolves and on 60

so lets say the next games are

Chels 3 Norwich 1 BUT wolves beat beat Burnley by the same 2 goals

we are now still +3 GD over them

BUT then we draw against the dippers and they beat Palace by 2 goals

now we are only +1

then they beat us by one goal

so our GD goes down by one AND theirs goes UP by one, thus a net loss of 2

they go through over us on GD

IF we are level on 64 with Wolves and level on GD, WE go through (more goals scored overall, we are +15)

BUT even if we come into the game +2 (or even +3)

and they beat us by 2 or more, we still crash out as that is a net loss (we go down in GD by 2, they go up by 2) of FOUR to them in GD

[NikkiCFC 8,085]

Everton, Palace, Newcastle and Southampton are only 4 teams that have nothing to play for. Ok you can add Norwich and City now there.

So did not see this coming.

Anyway, I am greedy. Not only that I want us to finish top4 I also want Leicester to finish above UTD. 

Not likely tho...

They would need to win one of the next two games to be in position to decide everything in the last round at home. 

Leicester have better goal difference than UTD.

So if Leicester just win two home games against SU and UTD they would finish above UTD.

[Tomo 21,736]

10 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Everton, Palace, Newcastle and Southampton are only 4 teams that have nothing to play for. Ok you can add Norwich and City now there.

So did not see this coming.

Anyway, I am greedy. Not only that I want us to finish top4 I also want Leicester to finish above UTD. 

Not likely tho...

They would need to win one of the next two games to be in position to decide everything in the last round at home. 

Leicester have better goal difference than UTD.

So if Leicester just win two home games against SU and UTD they would finish above UTD.

I don't really buy this nothing to play for thing.

Yeah there's some cases where a team/manager jacks it in after 40 points is secured (Tony Pulis for example) but in general i think more unexpected results happen once the pressures off teams. Brighton vs Arsenal and Huddersfield and Cardiff vs United examples from the back end of last season alone.

[NikkiCFC 8,085]

Congrats to Wycombe. They got promoted for the first time in 133 years old history to Championship. 

Just 6 years ago goal difference saved them from going down to Conference.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

2 hours ago, Vesper said:

not if Leicester win their next 2

if we get 6 points out of the 3 games we are at 66

Leicester, if they beat both SU and Spuds will be on 65

if we lose to wolves on the last day (or beat them but lose to Liverpool), Leicester goes to the CL with a draw (based on on GD) or a win versus manure (again if they win the next two games)

even if we draw with Wolves or Victimpool  and win the other two games (so we would be at 67) Leicester goes to the CL if they beat Manure (they would have 68 points) after winning the next two

but even if they draw one and win one (so they are at 63 points) and then beat Manure, we crash out unless we win 2 and draw one.

beating Norwich and wolves or Liverpool, but losing to the other leaves us wide open to getting fucked by Leicester, as does even a draw and 2 wins by us if they win all three

Leicester's next two games are MASSIVE for us, we need them to LOSE one of them, or draw both, then 2 wins by us and we are 100% CL bound

 

finally, in theory, even Wolves could catch us, IF they win out  (they play shit Burnley and shit Crystal Palace) and we only get 1 win or a draw and win (and the loss is to them)

if we only beat Norwich and lose to the dippers and Wolves, we are on 63 points, wolves, IF they win out, will have 64

and I explain another way in the next post we get fucked by Wolves even with a win v Norwich and a draw v the Dippers

I just doubt that Leicester will get 6 points from Sheffield, Tottenham and Manutd on their current form. Once we get 66 points, we qualify. I just hope we do the job against Norwich Tomorrow to put some pressure on the rest to slip up.

[Rapkun 668]

19 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

I just doubt that Leicester will get 6 points from Sheffield, Tottenham and Manutd on their current form. Once we get 66 points, we qualify. I just hope we do the job against Norwich Tomorrow to put some pressure on the rest to slip up.

I think Leicester will get 1 point or none from their remaining 3 games. Their current form is that bad.

[DDA 9,731]

4 minutes ago, Rapkun said:

I think Leicester will get 1 point or none from their remaining 3 games. Their current form is that bad.

Also i do believe Maddison, Ricardo and Chilwell are all out injured?? Does Soyuncu have to serve a ban for the red now too?

[Rapkun 668]

Just now, DDA said:

Also i do believe Maddison, Ricardo and Chilwell are all out injured??

That's right, I don't know for how long though. I've included that in their "bad form" factor. Also add Soyuncu being suspended until the end of the season.

[DDA 9,731]

Just now, Rapkun said:

That's right, I don't know for how long though. I've included that in their "bad form" factor. Also add Soyuncu being suspended until the end of the season.

Ahh yes, I added that to my post after you replied. Losing Soyuncu along with the injuries really does put them in a tough position. You can't write them off because it's footballl and anything can happen but it's looking very unlikely for them now.

[Rapkun 668]

2 minutes ago, DDA said:

Ahh yes, I added that to my post after you replied. Losing Soyuncu along with the injuries really does put them in a tough position. You can't write them off because it's footballl and anything can happen but it's looking very unlikely for them now.

Yeah, can't exclude them having a good run and getting 4 points which is IMO the best they can get out of these games. Pereira in particular was a big loss for them. He was their best player at interplay, none of their other wingers(I know he's a FB) in the squad can compensate for what he brings. And now they lost their best defender as well.

[Vesper 29,221]

‘I went straight to my car’ – the ignominy of being substituted at half-time

https://theathletic.com/1925212/2020/07/14/half-time-substitutions-mason-mount-derry-blake-perch/

It is one of the hardest things a footballer has to deal with: you’ve just given your all for 45 minutes but the manager decides your performance is so underwhelming that a change has to be made at half-time.

In the grand scheme of things, it’s not quite as bad as “the ultimate indignity” — a substitute being substituted — or a player failing to even make it to the interval before getting the hook but it’s right up there in terms of demeaning moments any player wants to avoid.

“You just feel embarrassed,” former Crystal Palace and Queens Park Rangers midfielder Shaun Derry explains to The Athletic. “The Premier League is always scrutinised, even if you’re at a smaller club.

“On the times it happened to me, I was gutted. You go home, you’re quiet. You just went to get back on the training pitch to put it right. Games come round quickly, so you can move on to the next page. You just want to play again, to show the quality you do have.”

One can only assume that is exactly how Mason Mount is feeling ahead of Chelsea’s game against Norwich tonight. The England international has suffered the ignominy of going off at half-time twice in as many weeks.

Mount, as well as fellow youngsters Billy Gilmour and Reece James, suffered the consequences for Chelsea’s underwhelming display in the first half at Leicester City in the FA Cup quarter-final on June 28. Head coach Frank Lampard’s ruthless streak paid off, because his team ended up winning the tie 1-0.

The 21-year-old caught Lampard’s eye for the wrong reasons once more at Sheffield United on Saturday. He was replaced, along with fellow academy graduate Andreas Christensen, although the defender at least had an injury to blame. This time, the changes made no difference as the home side, who led 2-0 at half-time, went on to cruise to a comfortable 3-0 victory.

Derry knows exactly what emotions Mount and the other early-subbed Chelsea players have been through. The 42-year-old will never forget QPR manager Neil Warnock brutally axing him at half-time twice in October 2011.

On the first occasion, QPR trailed Fulham 3-0 at the break (they went on to lose the match 6-0) and the second came halfway through a 3-1 loss at Tottenham.

“Neil was always black and white with me in terms of being positive and negative,” Derry explains. “He’d tell me if I’d done well or was poor. At half-time against Fulham, we were 3-0 down and I hadn’t played well. It’s as simple as that. As an older player, you understand your game a little bit more and I knew I’d not done myself justice.

“He had this pretty honest way of communicating with me. Some days, he would tell you. Others, he wouldn’t even look at you. This was one of those days where it was the former — it was along the lines of, ‘Shaun, that’s you done, son’.

“You don’t put up a fight. There’s no point. We were getting absolutely battered. It was time for a change and a manager has the right to do that. I just sat there and took my boots off.

“He said the same to Adel (Taarabt, who was also withdrawn at half-time in both matches). But at Fulham, being the young man that he was at the time, he stormed off into the showers. It later emerged he walked out and was seen at a bus stop outside the stadium.

“I didn’t know he had left until we were on the bus back to the training ground and I realised he wasn’t on it. We didn’t really talk about it because that was Adel. We’d become used to some of his decision-making. I didn’t care because we’d seen it often, even during the good times he’d had. That was just the way he was.

“When both of us were taken off at half-time again at Spurs a few weeks later, I didn’t take it personally. We were fighting for our lives. You didn’t have 10-12 consistent players every week in a team like ours. The highs and lows are regular. As a manager, you will constantly change to find a formula. I knew I’d still get my shirt back because of the way I performed in training.”

The strength of Derry’s relationship with Warnock, much like Mount’s is with Lampard, was such that it didn’t develop into something more negative or sinister.

In the Chelsea youngster’s case, he has still featured in every Premier League match this season and the brief introduction of the five substitute rule, as well as an intense fixture list, does encourage coaches to use their bench more regularly than normal.

To say Robbie Blake was quite so forgiving when he was hooked at half-time against Manchester City in April 2010 would be inaccurate.

Manchester City were four goals up inside 20 minutes at Turf Moor, so manager Brian Laws opted to replace Blake with Wade Elliott, while Jack Cork came on for Kevin McDonald. In some ways, it worked, as Burnley kept the second-half score down to 2-1 to City. Yet the decision backfired because both withdrawn players disappeared while the match was still going on. McDonald ended up getting fined, having been spotted in a local pub. Dressing room morale was arguably dented more by the fallout than the result itself, and Burnley were relegated come May. Blake never started a Premier League game for the club again and moved on to Bolton at the end of the campaign.

Looking back on the encounter, Blake reveals: “It was incredible, really. He (Laws) was hammering the boys at half-time, saying words I can’t repeat, and then he said, ‘There are only some boys who can come out with a little bit of credit here, and that’s him’ — and he pointed at me — ‘and Kev. They’re the only ones who are trying’. He waffled on a bit longer, then he said, ‘Well, anyway, I’m going to make two changes. You’re coming off and you’re coming off’ to me and Kev.

“My first reaction was, ‘It sums you up’. Being a coach now (at non-League Bognor Regis Town), I can understand certain situations but the guy, at that level, was just struggling. He didn’t know how to give a challenge or how to deal with that. If someone else had taken me off, who I had a bit more respect for, it probably would have hurt me a bit more.

“Genuinely, I was laughing inside. I’m not trying to be disrespectful now, or then, but I thought, ‘You haven’t got a clue, mate, so I find it a compliment that you’re going to take me off’. People have disagreements, but I felt the job was too big for him. It didn’t make sense, we were (being made) the scapegoats, really. He didn’t even change the formation.

“I listened to the second half as I was driving home. I went straight out of the dressing room and at Turf Moor, you can go left or right. Kev turned right and went into the pub where his dad was. I turned left and got straight in my car and drove home.

“It was devastating (to leave on that note). I had a meeting with (director) Brendan Flood and he was saying, ‘Please stay, please stay’ but I was replying, ‘I can’t stay while he’s in charge. If you think you’re going to go straight back up, you’ve got another thing coming’. It was a nightmare.”

Clearly, the way a manager handles such a sensitive subject is key to how quickly people can move on afterwards.

Egos, pride, confidence and relationships can be damaged if an individual thinks they’ve been slighted.

James Perch played for Newcastle as a right-back under Alan Pardew. On the final day of the 2011-12 season, he had no complaints after having his afternoon cut short during a 3-1 loss at Everton. However, in what proved to be his penultimate appearance for the club, Perch took great exception at Pardew’s drastic response to going into half-time 2-0 down at home to Liverpool a year later. They went on to lose 6-0.

“For the most part, the team was awful,” Perch concedes. “But, I have to be honest, I thought I did all right. But he just took me off. I was raging. I don’t think I deserved it.

“There was no explanation. We just came back to the dressing room and he said, ‘Right, Perchy, you’re off’. It’s disappointing and it’s not nice because, sometimes, you feel like you’ve been made to look a bit of a scapegoat.

“Sometimes, I felt like I was the easy option for the manager to take off, rather than some of the ‘bigger names’. He could have changed a whole host of players against Liverpool ahead of me but he chose me and I didn’t think that was right. It was maybe less of a story if it was me than someone else.

“So straight away, I just took my boots off, took my kit off and walked into the shower. I didn’t want to listen to what he had to say. I wanted to let him know I was disappointed, and I’m sure he got the message!”

With so many professionals seeking a career in coaching or management once their playing days are over, it is inevitable things they have seen and been through may be used to help them in the dug-out.

Lampard’s call to take Mount, James and Gilmour off at Leicester led to comparisons with his former Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho, who used all three substitutions at half-time during an FA Cup tie at Newcastle in 2005. Indeed, Lampard was one of the individuals who came on to try turn a 1-0 deficit around. It didn’t work, partly because Wayne Bridge soon had to go off due to a broken leg, meaning the visitors were reduced to 10 men.

Derry, who is now in charge of Crystal Palace Under-23s, has no doubts Lampard will be helped by lessons learned when he was younger and will handle the situation accordingly.

“Lampard is a fantastic communicator,” he says. “I did my UEFA A licence with Frank and (his Chelsea No 2) Jody Morris. There couldn’t be two better individuals to look after the young players at Chelsea, because they have been young players at Chelsea and succeeded.

“Frank will stick with them and explain things to them — what is really required. For example, it was a dip at Leicester, something three of them experienced together.

“I’ve been in the same situation as a coach. I’ve brought on a substitute and taken him off again. That’s not a nice thing to do. But at the same time, I can always refer back to my own experiences and say, ‘It happened to me’. When you can tell that story, it resonates a bit clearer with the player.

“The coaching staff at Chelsea won’t let it be a situation that gets out of hand. The big factor is coping with it. Do you know what? I don’t think it is a bad thing. It will turn into a real positive for their futures. The journey is not always smooth. There will be dips in the road as footballers.”