The English Football Thread

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

29 minutes ago, LAM09 said:

Stats alone aren't the only marker. If anything, trophies should be king unless Messi is getting Muller-esque stats.

VvD reached two finals, winning one.

So team based accomplishments have more bearing on an award that specifically honors the best individual performer. 

That makes complete sense.  

5 minutes ago, Vesper said:

he failed at the big trophies

and he plays in a pinball league with horrific defences

if he played in the EPL for his career he would have well over 100 less league goals

part of the reason the Spanish teams go so deep all the time in the CL is that they can coast in the league except when they play each other, put them in the EPL and have the snot beaten out of them every week and it would take a toll

and he is a World Cup choker ( a national team choker in general) ZERO Sr trophies

I don't like Messi (although he did deserve some of his Ballons d'Or)

he can never be rated the best player ever IMHO unless he somehow wins the WC in December 2022, plus he doesn't even have a far easier to win Copa America trophy, at least CR7 took a truly shit Portuguese team to a Euro trophy

I wouldn't call winning the league as failure. But again, that is aside the point. 

If the Spanish league is so horrific defensively, why isn't there any striker, or player for that matter, that comes close to Messi's output? Surely in a league that is so bad defensively, there would be many strikers producing high numbers? 

If Messi played for City he would have more goals than this current Barca side actually. He actually has more goals against the top 6 in England than any other player...and he doesn't even play in the Premier League. 

Spanish sides do well in Europe because they are simply better. Not to mention a little thing called European pedigree. 

Messi took an underperforming Argentina side to three consecutive finals. A side filled with underperformers and blatant AFA corruption. Mad that the difference in Ronaldo and Messi isn't about individual quality, it's Eder...

That last sentence I will never take seriously. So Maldini can't ever be considered the best defender because he never won the WC? Ronaldo can't be considered the best striker because he never won the Champions League? Let's forget all about their individual quality as players, because what truly matters is team based accomplishments. Such a groundless argument. 

 

[Vesper 29,197]

[LAM09 6,840]

All set up for Mourinho to do a job on Wednesday and end Ole's spell as manager.

[Vesper 29,197]

10 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

If the Spanish league is so horrific defensively, why isn't there any striker, or player for that matter, that comes close to Messi's output? Surely in a league that is so bad defensively, there would be many strikers producing high numbers? 

If Messi played for City he would have more goals than this current Barca side actually. He actually has more goals against the top 6 in England than any other player...and he doesn't even play in the Premier League. 

That last sentence I will never take seriously. So Maldini can't ever be considered the best defender because he never won the WC? Ronaldo can't be considered the best striker because he never won the Champions League? Let's forget all about their individual quality as players, because what truly matters is team based accomplishments. Such a groundless argument. 

 

so disagree on most all

1

CR7, Neymar  Suarez (59 goals in a year) and a shedload of mediocre players who score for fun their in bitch-ass La Liga and flop elsewhere

 

2

no way would Messi score more if he had been at Shitty instead of Barca

3

nope, he can never be rated the best ever with no WC, sorry, but that is the way it goes

life's a bitch

Pele or Maradona

flip a coin

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vesper 29,197]

[killer1257 3,282]

I wouldn't call winning the league as failure. But again, that is aside the point. 
If the Spanish league is so horrific defensively, why isn't there any striker, or player for that matter, that comes close to Messi's output? Surely in a league that is so bad defensively, there would be many strikers producing high numbers? 
If Messi played for City he would have more goals than this current Barca side actually. He actually has more goals against the top 6 in England than any other player...and he doesn't even play in the Premier League. 
Spanish sides do well in Europe because they are simply better. Not to mention a little thing called European pedigree. 
Messi took an underperforming Argentina side to three consecutive finals. A side filled with underperformers and blatant AFA corruption. Mad that the difference in Ronaldo and Messi isn't about individual quality, it's Eder...
That last sentence I will never take seriously. So Maldini can't ever be considered the best defender because he never won the WC? Ronaldo can't be considered the best striker because he never won the Champions League? Let's forget all about their individual quality as players, because what truly matters is team based accomplishments. Such a groundless argument. 
 

100% agree. Messi ist the best ever. I also do not get the people that criticise Messi for not winning the WC, which is a very stupid argument to begin with. Messi was the only reason why Argentina was in the final. If it wasn't for Messi, they would not even survived group Phase.
But you can't expect from Messi haters to see the bigger picture. They just hate him.
If Messi was chinese, they would say the same thing that Messi needs to win WC to be the goat with China...

Messi will be one of the only few players that I will tell my future kids about.




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[Atomiswave 6,072]

37 minutes ago, Tomo said:

That's hardly true, we have got big time rub of the green to have our CL campaign still in our hands.

Beside that Ajax game I cant think of one..... my point is many many teams in epl have higher luck than us. Margins go against us very very often at crucial stages imo.

JM will likely end Ole this coming week and you can bet a far better manager will take his place.

[Atomiswave 6,072]

I dont believe vvd deserve it. They are talking about him as if he is the best defender to ever grace epl. If JT, RC, Vidic etc didnt win it then neither should he.

[Vesper 29,197]

36 minutes ago, Nicco said:

When is the ban hearing next week? We urgently need another striker and only chance to get Werner and Sancho before other teams enter a bidding war in the summer.

the hearing was November 20th

we will get a decision sometime in the next 30 days (before January)

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

so disagree on most all

1

CR7, Neymar  Suarez (59 goals in a year) and a shedload of mediocre players who score for fun their in bitch-ass La Liga and flop elsewhere

 

2

no way would Messi score more if he had been at Shitty instead of Barca

3

nope, he can never be rated the best ever with no WC, sorry, but that is the way it goes

life's a bitch

Pele or Maradona

flip a coin

 

You definitely have a chip on your shoulder over Messi based on your comments to support your argument. 

1. You listed off three players who are arguably the best in the world in their positions. One of which will go down as one of the greatest of all time. You conveniently didn't list off those 'mediocre players' who scored for fun in a defensively poor Spanish league. Who are these mediocre players that match Messi's output then? Why did you ignore the fact Messi has more goals against the Top 6 than any player in the Premier League, even though he doesn't play in the Premier League?

2. Sterling's numbers are quite literally insane under Pep with City. You are kidding yourself if you think Messi playing with City and their free flowing football, won't produce greater numbers vs being the only influence in Valverde's dull Barca side. 

3. Entitled to your opinion. A very flawed and contradictory one, but your opinion nonetheless. (Gerard Pique > Paolo Maldini) 

 

 

[Vesper 29,197]

17 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

You definitely have a chip on your shoulder over Messi based on your comments to support your argument. 

1. You listed off three players who are arguably the best in the world in their positions. One of which will go down as one of the greatest of all time. You conveniently didn't list off those 'mediocre players' who scored for fun in a defensively poor Spanish league. Who are these mediocre players that match Messi's output then? Why did you ignore the fact Messi has more goals against the Top 6 than any player in the Premier League, even though he doesn't play in the Premier League?

2. Sterling's numbers are quite literally insane under Pep with City. You are kidding yourself if you think Messi playing with City and their free flowing football, won't produce greater numbers vs being the only influence in Valverde's dull Barca side. 

3. Entitled to your opinion. A very flawed and contradictory one, but your opinion nonetheless. (Gerard Pique > Paolo Maldini) 

 

 

you are making a fundamental mistake in saying that I would take a player in a POSITION and not say they were the best THERE all time because they did not win a WC

I never said that

I did say if we are talking about the best OVERALL player of all time, then you have to take WC in to account as the best player in any sport needs to have have won the biggest trophy possible in that sport

big difference

 

Messi has failed completely at international level in winning a single trophy, Maradona led a SHIT overall Argie team to the WC trophy

 

the best CB of all time, btw, IMHO, DOES have a WC AND a European Championship, plus back to back to back CL's (European Cup then) and back to back to back league titles

Franz Beckenbauer

 

 

[Laylabelle 9,406]

2 hours ago, LAM09 said:

I should have mentioned against the rest. Liverpool are a class above IMO.

I wouldn't say anything is a given tbh. Watford might bounce back after recent developments as well

Though if they hadn't given away a penalty last minute they'd gotten something from that Liverpool game. 

Surprised in a way how far up they are but in another not and good on them! 

[killer1257 3,282]

you are making a fundamental mistake in saying that I would take a player in a POSITION and not say they were the best THERE all time because they did not win a WC
I never said that
I did say if we are talking about the best OVERALL player of all time, then you have to take WC in to account as the best player in any sport needs to have have won the biggest trophy possible in that sport
big difference
 
Messi has failed completely at international level in winning a single trophy, Maradona led a SHIT overall Argie team to the WC trophy
 
the best CB of all time, btw, IMHO, DOES have a WC AND a European Championship, plus back to back to back CL's (European Cup then) and back to back to back league titles
Franz Beckenbauer
 
 

Beckenbauer would have won zero International and national titles without Hoeneß, Netzer, Rummenigge, Müller, Berti Vogts, Maier, Paul Breitner etc.

For me personally, best Defender of all time is Maldini. Played the best of the best in a modern era of football.
I don't think the comparisons of really old players with modern Football players makes Sense. The quality of Football Today is way better than for example Peles Time. Pele was playing nobodys in Brasilian League. Back then nutritition sucked, tactics sucked, quality of players sucked , athleticism of the players sucked, the developtment of the players sucked etc. . Todays footballers quality is superior than 50 years ago. Let Messi or Ronaldo play 50 years ago and they would get bored instantly. No Competition etc.
Just a unfair comparison. Beckenbauer with the conditions of today would probably be a better Player, but still hard to compare. You just can compare Beckenbauer of old time playing worse Quality of players with players like Madini who played against better oppositions but also with better conditions. So Maldini wins that battle.

Funny Thing is that Beckenbauer himself said that Peps Bayern was better than legendary 1973 Bayern, which also is true because the Quality of todays players is way better his time. He said that all Bayern players could replace the old Generation.





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[Vesper 29,197]

2 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Beckenbauer would have won zero International and national titles without Hoeneß, Netzer, Rummenigge, Müller, Berti Vogts, Maier, Paul Breitner etc.

For me personally, best Defender of all time is Maldini. Played the best of the best in a modern era of football.
I don't think the comparisons of really old players with modern Football players makes Sense. The quality of Football Today is way better than for example Peles Time. Pele was playing nobodys in Brasilian League. Back then nutritition sucked, tactics sucked, quality of players sucked , athleticism of the players sucked, the developtment of the players sucked etc. . Todays footballers quality is superior than 50 years ago. Let Messi or Ronaldo play 50 years ago and they would get bored instantly. No Competition etc.
Just a unfair comparison. Beckenbauer with the conditions of today would probably be a better Player, but still hard to compare. You just can compare Beckenbauer of old time playing worse Quality of players with players like Madini who played against better oppositions but also with better conditions. So Maldini wins that battle.

Funny Thing is that Beckenbauer himself said that Peps Bayern was better than legendary 1973 Bayern, which also is true because the Quality of todays players is way better his time. He said that all Bayern players could replace the old Generation.





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those older era players would have all the advantages of today's technology and advancements in training if they played today

it's a 2 way street

I rate Maldini a top 5 CB of all time, along with Franco Baresi, Alessandro Nesta, (so you see, I do NOT slight Italians, and certainly NOT AC Milan, lol) and Bobby Moore

1 Beckanbauer

2 Maldini

3 Baresi

4 Moore

5 Nesta

honourable mention  Daniel Passarella, Gaetano Scirea, and José Santamaría, 

 

[Jase 43,479]

Arsenal are a very confused club...

 

[Jase 43,479]

Odds on new Everton manager being appointed on Thursday and then getting the first win on Saturday?

[Special Juan 27,530]

Pepe dropped yesterday because he hasn't impressed in training.

[Tomo 21,736]

4 hours ago, Jason said:

Arsenal are a very confused club...

 

I know it's only one game but his approach and changes in the Norwich game were absolutely shocking.