closed Chelsea 0-0 Man United

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, Blues11 said:

Pulisic's form hasn't been great this season but we could barely hold possession early on in the season with the 4-3-3 under frank. 

We were never great at holding possession last season either but it didn't stop Pulisic from being great.

[Blues11 213]

10 minutes ago, Jason said:

We were never great at holding possession last season either but it didn't stop Pulisic from being great.

True. I mean I don't think that's the only contributing factor on why he hasn't been very good but as a team we became more and more predictable under Frank. Teams just knew to press our midfield going into the season and we would just pass the ball back time and time again. I do believe he'll have more space and more chances to receive the ball with how we're holding possession lately.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Blues11

[ZAPHOD2319 4,822]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Pulisic has ever started against Man Utd in any competition?

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, ZAPHOD2319 said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think Pulisic has ever started against Man Utd in any competition?

He started in the reverse fixture in September.

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, Blues11 said:

True. I mean I don't think that's the only contributing factor on why he hasn't been very good but as as team we became more and more predictable under Frank. Teams just knew to press our midfield going into the season and we would just pass the ball back time and time again. I do believe he'll have more space and more chances to receive the ball with how we're holding possession lately.

But that's still can't be why he has been so off form this season.

[ZAPHOD2319 4,822]

 

[MONEYBALL 20]

22 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Same team as v Atletico. Maybe only Giroud out and Silva back in. Dont see why he would change it radically after our best performance under TT. Calling for major changes after that performance is just daft if I am honest, more so Jorginho and Mount who are suspended v Atletico so may as well play them here as theyve shown they are key components under Tuchel so far.

Very very short memory... So, for this home match against MU, may be the most important of the season, let's leave Giroud on the bench, play Havertz, Pulisic or Werner and pray what they didn't show yet this season , come back like a miracle for this game. And if the miracle does'nt come, let's hope another miracle, Giroud doing in 15 minutes the thing our young and pacy superstars would'nt 've been able to do in 75 minutes.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by MONEYBALL

[Blues11 213]

Just now, Jason said:

But that's still can't be why he has been so off form this season.

No, I think there's a good amount of factors on why he has been off form this season. Obviously health always hurts him, pressures of trying to take the next step with the weight of a country on your shoulders. He's just not playing well but if he's fit I just hope he can rediscover some kind of form and TT gives him that chance. 

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

Very important match if we want clear blue water between us and the Mersey riff raff

Defence need to be on their toes to deal with Martial, Rashford and Cavani and Kante/Jorginho or whoever plays to block the channels

[killer1257 3,282]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

We were never great at holding possession last season either but it didn't stop Pulisic from being great.

I would say that counter attacking football suits him a lot because he can use his pace and dribbling abilities.

Pulisic just in not in form. Why? Probably all the injuries he had, but now I am not so sure where Pulisic will play. Tuchel used him once as a wing back, but that can't be it lol

[Azul 1,615]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

The problem with Pulisic is he hasn't even been "ok" this season. For all the talk about him being injury prone and missing games, his last major injury was back in November. Since returning from his hamstring issue back then, Pulisic has played 17 of 22 games (1,026 minutes).

Of the 5 games he didn't play, he missed 1 due to tightness in his thigh (IIRC), 1 due to "awareness" in his hamstring, 1 due to family issue and he was an unused sub in the other 2 (one of the games was a dead rubber against Krasnodar).

Of the 17 games that he did play, he started 5 in a row (Wolves, West Ham, Arsenal, Villa, Man City) and then 3 in a row (Fulham, Leicester, Luton) and during this 17-game run, he produced just 1 goal (the 3rd against Leeds) and 1 assist (the 2nd goal against Burnley). That's a far cry from his numbers last season and I don't even recall one good performance from him, not one that me go "yup, that's the Pulisic from last season". Instead and think I'm not the only one, have been wondering "what has happened to the Pulisic of last season!?". Was that just a purple patch that he enjoyed last season and now he's back to being average? And not to mention, his last start/performance at Barnsley was truly forgettable. 

In contrast and yes Werner has been under par/inconsistent for month, but his output has been better than Pulisic in the same period. Werner has played 20 of 22 games (1,326 minutes) and produced 2 goals, 3 assists and won 2 penalties that gave us 4 additional points against Spurs and Sheffield United recently (the contribution is also very similar to Mount in the same period - 4 goals, 2 assists, 1 penalty won - despite being less consistent in performances). The numbers aren't big in general and they are of course no excuse for his inconsistent performances but just stating facts and if we want to talk about someone making the difference, then at least Werner has done it a bit more Pulisic so far this season.

Am all for Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech etc to rediscover their form because if they do, then we might have a good chance of achieving something noteworthy this season. But the problem is, they are just so out of form at the moment and given all the big games we have in the next week or two, not sure if they can be trusted to make a difference from the start when we can't afford to drop points. Am sure they will start 1 or 2 games along the way because of the need of rotation etc but they need to wake up from their recent slumber that's for sure. 

I think it's unfair to mention the games that got Lampard sacked when talking about Pulisic's performance. The whole squad was underperforming, so to look at those stats is irrelevant. Even Thiago Silva was conceding left and right, because we all know the team just had enough of Lampard. Werner was still underperforming when we were on a winning run under Frank. He was missing 1 on 1 chances for fun, yet he still started every single game.

Whether you like it or not Werner played wayyyyyy more games than Pulisic this season, and he still has not showed enough even after Tuchel was appointed. All I'm saying is that Werner has played atleast 6 out of the 8 games under Tuchel, and we're still struggling to score goals. I think Werner is a huge reason why we're inefficient up front. 

A funny thing I realised is that you judge Pulisic's Barnsley game but refuse to acknowledge every single time Werner has a stinker. Why does Pulisic have to put in a worldclass performance after starting just one game, when Werner has been incredibly average most games he's played? Give Pulisic the same run of games Werner has had and judge him based on that. Most players need minutes in order to find their form, and as far as I'm concerned Werner has had way too many minutes compared to Pulisic and still flops.

P.S. stop saying players are out of form based on 1 cup game they've played. The whole team was shit that day. Havertz has not even had the chance to prove himself under Tuchel to be honest, and Ziyech looked very good when he came on against Atletico.

 

[NikkiCFC 8,358]

45 minutes ago, Azul said:

Havertz has not even had the chance to prove himself under Tuchel to be honest

He did not had that chance even under Lampard I would say.

With no pre season and coming to new league he was played out of position.

He had good month from late September to late October and this was the only time he was played as AM in 4231. So in his best position. He started to build something. Assist against WBA, goal against Southampton, assist against Krasnodar, penalty won against Palace, hettrick against Barnsley. All this in space of one month.

But what happened after that? He catched Covid and Frank changed formation without a obvious reason. After that was not the same. In this period Mount either did not start (Palace, Krasnodar, United) or was played as winger but was not effective. So Frank most likely did not liked that and moved to 433 to accommodate Mount where they both played as number 8. 

After hettrick against Barnsley and solid game against WBA we had Spurs in Cup and he did not play a second in that game. We played 4231 in that game and it was perfect for him to continue to build something. So Frank really did not gave him trust like he did with some others and this was really weird since Kai is generational talent.

After Lamps was sacked we heard that Kai was club signing and not his and this came as no surprise to anyone.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by NikkiCFC

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, Azul said:

I think it's unfair to mention the games that got Lampard sacked when talking about Pulisic's performance. The whole squad was underperforming, so to look at those stats is irrelevant. Even Thiago Silva was conceding left and right, because we all know the team just had enough of Lampard. Werner was still underperforming when we were on a winning run under Frank. He was missing 1 on 1 chances for fun, yet he still started every single game.

Whether you like it or not Werner played wayyyyyy more games than Pulisic this season, and he still has not showed enough even after Tuchel was appointed. All I'm saying is that Werner has played atleast 6 out of the 8 games under Tuchel, and we're still struggling to score goals. I think Werner is a huge reason why we're inefficient up front. 

A funny thing I realised is that you judge Pulisic's Barnsley game but refuse to acknowledge every single time Werner has a stinker. Why does Pulisic have to put in a worldclass performance after starting just one game, when Werner has been incredibly average most games he's played? Give Pulisic the same run of games Werner has had and judge him based on that. Most players need minutes in order to find their form, and as far as I'm concerned Werner has had way too many minutes compared to Pulisic and still flops.

So because we changed manager, we should just wipe the slate clean with everyone? If you're out here saying we should be expecting more from Werner, then shouldn't the same be expected of Pulisic, regardless of the manager? 

How is Werner getting all the stick for our problems upfront? Is he the only attacking player we play? Is he the only scorer and creator we have? Abraham has barely scored. Giroud has barely scored until his last two games. Mount has barely scored. We don't get goals from Jorginho (penalties excluded!), Kovacic and rarely from Alonso and CHO. Werner's end product is inconsistent. Mount's end product is inconsistent. Alonso's end product is inconsistent. CHO's end product is inconsistent. Abraham, Giroud don't even create many chances. Jorginho, Kovacic don't create chances. It's problem filtered throughout the team, not just one player. It's not as if we created much or looked like scoring a lot either in the two games that Werner did not play under Tuchel - Wolves and Barnsley.

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and proved to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games! You said most players need minutes to find their form, yeah, Pulisic got that from December-January a lot under Lampard but he did not show the kind of form he showed last season. Far from it. If you want to judge Werner for underperforming under Lampard, then the same should be applied to Pulisic. Let's not also forget how he broke into the first team last season as well. He impacted games from the bench for 2-3 games and eventually got his reward. If Tuchel isn't starting him now, then he needs to take his chances from the bench. Also again, you said some players need minutes to find their form and yet when last season restarted in June, Pulisic found his form immediately and helped us to finish in the Top 4. 

Yes, you're right that Werner has had poor performances this season but I'm just not sure I agree with you on the recent games you're referring to him. As I said before, I'm all for Pulisic and others to start but given how out of form he has been and we have so many important/big games, can we really afford to start him? 

39 minutes ago, Azul said:

P.S. stop saying players are out of form based on 1 cup game they've played. The whole team was shit that day.

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and prove to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games!

Also let me ask this, if Werner had played against Barnsley and dropped a stinker, would you pile on him like you have been doing or would you excuse him because the whole team was shit that day?

41 minutes ago, Azul said:

Ziyech looked very good when he came on against Atletico.

This.

On 26/02/2021 at 03:19, OneMoSalah said:

Also a lot of people mentioning Ziyech and Havertz looked pretty good when they came on, not sure where they managed to make this impression from. Havertz played only like 3 minutes plus added time considering he came on in the 87th minute and Ziyech 16 minutes plus added time. Granted both looked fitter but they didnt do anything of particular notice that stuck out as to why they should be included in the starting 11 for the game.

 

[ZAPHOD2319 4,822]

Not sure if this means anything. These guys seem to get it wrong more than right.

 

Quote

Chelsea are set up to be counter-attacked, an area where United flourish, but it's hard to make a case for an away win when all angles are assessed. Like most meetings between the big boys this season, it's bound to be a tactical and very cagey affair with Chelsea dominating possession. One goal will probably do it for Tuchel.

JONES KNOWS PREDICTS: 1-0

BETTING ANGLE: Chelsea to win by one goal (3/1 with Sky Bet)

 

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

We need to be two up to win this as its in the United/FA contract to have  their obligatory penalty

[NikkiCFC 8,358]

42 minutes ago, Jason said:

Abraham has barely scored. Giroud has barely scored until his last two games.

Look, we have different expectations from them. We know what they are capable of and for their role they are doing amazing job.

My opinion about Tammys overall game is the same as anyone but this season when he played more than 45 mins he did not contributed to the goals just three times. Spurs, Leicester and Rennes. And only LC was 90 mins game for him.

Giroud 1000 mins: 11 goals

Abraham 1500 mins: 12 goals.

Asking them to do more for backup roles is crazy. I saw stat that for the first time in like 20 years all 3 Chelsea strikers scored more than 10 goals in the season.

They are our 2 best goalscorers and scored 23 from 71 goals this season. 32% of all goals. 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by NikkiCFC

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Look, we have different expectations from them. We know what we are capable of and for their role they are doing amazing job.

My opinion about Tammys overall game is the same as anyone but this season when he played more than 45 mins he did not contributed to the goals just three times. Spurs, Leicester and Rennes. And only LC was 90 mins game for him.

Giroud 1000 mins: 11 goals

Abraham 1500 mins: 12 goals.

Asking them to do more for backup roles is crazy. I saw stat that for the first time in like 20 years all 3 Chelsea strikers scored more than 10 goals in the season.

They are our 2 best goalscorers and scored 23 from 71 goals this season. 32% of all goals.

Asking them to do more for backup roles is crazy? Mate, either one is basically being used to lead the line right now and since that's their role under Tuchel, then they have to score the goals as well. And let's not forget, you were banging on about getting results in the short term in the Alonso-Chilwell debate we had and in the short term, either one is being used as the main man through the middle. 

Also since you like breaking down the stats and all, I'll do it for this. Abraham has scored 12 goals but 5 of them came against Barnsley and Luton, meaning he's scored just 7 against better oppositions. Giroud may have scored 11 goals but 4 of them came in one game. So similar to Abraham, that means he's scored just 7 goals overall otherwise. 

[OneMoSalah 8,887]

3 hours ago, MONEYBALL said:

Very very short memory... So, for this home match against MU, may be the most important of the season, let's leave Giroud on the bench, play Havertz, Pulisic or Werner and pray what they didn't show yet this season , come back like a miracle for this game. And if the miracle does'nt come, let's hope another miracle, Giroud doing in 15 minutes the thing our young and pacy superstars would'nt 've been able to do in 75 minutes.

 

Thats why I said “maybe” and did say in another post afterwards I didn’t expect any changes bar Silva in for Christensen??

No clue how to put another quote in but the post was

”Werner down the middle. Ziyech/Pulisic/Havertz. Even then WBA just showed what a big CF can do against Maguire and Lindelof so wouldnt be surprised if Thiago Silva for Andreas was the only change. ”

Silva isnt fit though so probably be Christensen again. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Azul 1,615]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

So because we changed manager, we should just wipe the slate clean with everyone? If you're out here saying we should be expecting more from Werner, then shouldn't the same be expected of Pulisic, regardless of the manager? 

How is Werner getting all the stick for our problems upfront? Is he the only attacking player we play? Is he the only scorer and creator we have? Abraham has barely scored. Giroud has barely scored until his last two games. Mount has barely scored. We don't get goals from Jorginho (penalties excluded!), Kovacic and rarely from Alonso and CHO. Werner's end product is inconsistent. Mount's end product is inconsistent. Alonso's end product is inconsistent. CHO's end product is inconsistent. Abraham, Giroud don't even create many chances. Jorginho, Kovacic don't create chances. It's problem filtered throughout the team, not just one player. It's not as if we created much or looked like scoring a lot either in the two games that Werner did not play under Tuchel - Wolves and Barnsley.

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and proved to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games! You said most players need minutes to find their form, yeah, Pulisic got that from December-January a lot under Lampard but he did not show the kind of form he showed last season. Far from it. If you want to judge Werner for underperforming under Lampard, then the same should be applied to Pulisic. Let's not also forget how he broke into the first team last season as well. He impacted games from the bench for 2-3 games and eventually got his reward. If Tuchel isn't starting him now, then he needs to take his chances from the bench. Also again, you said some players need minutes to find their form and yet when last season restarted in June, Pulisic found his form immediately and helped us to finish in the Top 4. 

Yes, you're right that Werner has had poor performances this season but I'm just not sure I agree with you on the recent games you're referring to him. As I said before, I'm all for Pulisic and others to start but given how out of form he has been and we have so many important/big games, can we really afford to start him? 

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and prove to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games!

Also let me ask this, if Werner had played against Barnsley and dropped a stinker, would you pile on him like you have been doing or would you excuse him because the whole team was shit that day?

This.

 

First of all, read my post carefully and I clearly said that, all the games you took to show Pulisics horrible form under Lampard was when the whole team was playing garbage. Meanwhile Werner was dropping stinkers in the unbeaten run under Lampard. 

Here we go again with the assumptions. I'm not saying Werner is to blame for everything, but he is the player that is performing the worst in attack. Tammy is midtable/relegation quality and I've said that before. Giroud when he starts usually scores, so I don't get where the Giroud slander is coming from to be honest. Mounts end product is not good enough and I've said that before. However he would have so many assists if Werner put most of his chances away this season. It's not his fault Werner keeps on missing 1 on 1 chances. 

Furthermore, let's not get off topic, comparing central midfielders and wingbacks to an attacker is pointless. Werner's job is to score or assist and Jorginho/Kova/Alonso/CHO have many other tasks. Having goal contributions is the least of their concerns.

Pulisic had a stinker against Barnsley and he did not help himself, I've already said that. However how does Werner warrant a start after dropping waaaaay more stinkers? The same logic you're using for Chilwell and Alonso is the logic I'm using right now. Chilwell had a stinker against Wolves, does that mean he has to rot on the bench? No! Because Alonso has not even played well recently. The same goes for Werner. Just because Pulisic was an impact coming off the bench last season does not mean that he has to stay on the bench and do the same thing again! Werner is not putting in performances to keep him on the bench, whats so hard to understand about that? We need to rotate, because it does not look like we'll thrive up front at the moment.

It's a weird question to ask me whether I'd give Werner shit for having a poor game against Barnsley...... Mate, Werner has been shit 90% of this season so why would I focus on one performance of his? I look at his progression as a whole, and he has not impressed me this season.

From what I gathered you have different standards for Pulisic than you have for Werner. One is able to have stinkers almost every game under Tuchel and still be in the line-up and the other should be on the bench after a single bad performance under Tuchel. It's the most mindboggling thing.

Ziyech and Havertz were press resistant when they came on. They felt very comfortable on the ball compared to other games this season. Ziyech was moving the ball well, and his pass to Werner should've resulted in something.

P.S. yes we can afford to start Pulisic in the next games, especially if Werner has another stinker against Man UTD. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Azul

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, Azul said:

First of all, read my post carefully and I clearly said that, all the games you took to show Pulisics horrible form under Lampard was when the whole team was playing garbage. Meanwhile Werner was dropping stinkers in the unbeaten run under Lampard. 

Is that really a good excuse? A player can't control the other 10 or 9 outfield players' performance but he can control his. The whole team was playing bad but did it stop someone like Mount from performing? We were shit in the past at times as well but did it, say, stop someone like Hazard, Costa, Drogba, Lampard etc from making the difference?

9 minutes ago, Azul said:

Furthermore, let's not get off topic, comparing central midfielders and wingbacks to an attacker is pointless. Werner's job is to score or assist and Jorginho/Kova/Alonso/CHO have many other tasks. Having goal contributions is the least of their concerns.

Were you saying Alonso or Moses or Fabregas had other tasks last time when they played in the same back 3 system under Conte? Alonso got goals at a decent rate back then. Moses chipped in a few here and there. You want to excuse Jorginho and Kovacic, fine. But the WBs in this system are expected to contribute in attack because of they are normally used and given how advanced Alonso and CHO have been getting forward, they should at the very least contribute assists.

11 minutes ago, Azul said:

Pulisic had a stinker against Barnsley and he did not help himself, I've already said that. However how does Werner warrant a start after dropping waaaaay more stinkers? The same logic you're using for Chilwell and Alonso is the logic I'm using right now. Chilwell had a stinker against Wolves, does that mean he has to rot on the bench? No! Because Alonso has not even played well recently. The same goes for Werner. Just because Pulisic was an impact coming off the bench last season means that he has to stay on the bench and do the same thing again! Werner is not putting in performances to keep him on the bench, whats so hard to understand about that? We need to rotate, because it does not look like we'll thrive up front at the moment.

I used the Pulisic example last season because he wasn't starting games back then but he started make impact off the bench and it made Lampard trust him and play him in the XI. Shouldn't the same thing be happening here? Assuming Tuchel doesn't trust Pulisic to start games right now, then he has to make impact off the bench and "force" Tuchel to start him. That's the point I was getting at.

15 minutes ago, Azul said:

From what I gathered you have different standards for Pulisic than you have for Werner. One is able to have stinkers almost every game under Tuchel and still be in the line-up and the other should be on the bench after a single bad performance under Tuchel. It's the most mindboggling thing.

Firstly, I don't deny that Werner has had stinkers this season. I just don't agree that his recent performances or contributions have been as bad as you're making them out to be. On top of that, he contributed to the goal at Spurs, both goals against Sheffield United and Newcastle recently. That's 6 points won right there. I had people coming at me when I said Giroud doesn't do much besides scoring because it seems like people are okay with that. Now that I point out Werner's goal contribution despite his inconsistent performances, much like Giroud, there are people not okay with it.

And secondly, if I have different standards for Pulisic, it's because this is his second season at the club and he showed what he could do last season. I had expected him to build on from there, to get better but instead, it looked like he has regressed. With Werner, sure he has had stinkers but just like with the other new signings, am willing to give them some leeway because it's only their first season in English football, first season at a new club, all during a pandemic season no less. Next season, hopefully with some form of return to normality, I would expect much more and better from Werner, Havertz, Ziyech etc.

All in all, it's clear that we have different view on things and we can argue till the cows come home without agreeing on them. So, let's just agree to disagree. All I'll say is, at this point, I don't care much any more. If Pulisic, Havertz etc can rediscover their form, then great because it means we will have more options to make things work for the rest of the season. Rotate, start them, play them over whoever. Otherwise, we could potentially be screwed.