closed Chelsea 0-0 Man United

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, Azul said:

I think it's unfair to mention the games that got Lampard sacked when talking about Pulisic's performance. The whole squad was underperforming, so to look at those stats is irrelevant. Even Thiago Silva was conceding left and right, because we all know the team just had enough of Lampard. Werner was still underperforming when we were on a winning run under Frank. He was missing 1 on 1 chances for fun, yet he still started every single game.

Whether you like it or not Werner played wayyyyyy more games than Pulisic this season, and he still has not showed enough even after Tuchel was appointed. All I'm saying is that Werner has played atleast 6 out of the 8 games under Tuchel, and we're still struggling to score goals. I think Werner is a huge reason why we're inefficient up front. 

A funny thing I realised is that you judge Pulisic's Barnsley game but refuse to acknowledge every single time Werner has a stinker. Why does Pulisic have to put in a worldclass performance after starting just one game, when Werner has been incredibly average most games he's played? Give Pulisic the same run of games Werner has had and judge him based on that. Most players need minutes in order to find their form, and as far as I'm concerned Werner has had way too many minutes compared to Pulisic and still flops.

So because we changed manager, we should just wipe the slate clean with everyone? If you're out here saying we should be expecting more from Werner, then shouldn't the same be expected of Pulisic, regardless of the manager? 

How is Werner getting all the stick for our problems upfront? Is he the only attacking player we play? Is he the only scorer and creator we have? Abraham has barely scored. Giroud has barely scored until his last two games. Mount has barely scored. We don't get goals from Jorginho (penalties excluded!), Kovacic and rarely from Alonso and CHO. Werner's end product is inconsistent. Mount's end product is inconsistent. Alonso's end product is inconsistent. CHO's end product is inconsistent. Abraham, Giroud don't even create many chances. Jorginho, Kovacic don't create chances. It's problem filtered throughout the team, not just one player. It's not as if we created much or looked like scoring a lot either in the two games that Werner did not play under Tuchel - Wolves and Barnsley.

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and proved to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games! You said most players need minutes to find their form, yeah, Pulisic got that from December-January a lot under Lampard but he did not show the kind of form he showed last season. Far from it. If you want to judge Werner for underperforming under Lampard, then the same should be applied to Pulisic. Let's not also forget how he broke into the first team last season as well. He impacted games from the bench for 2-3 games and eventually got his reward. If Tuchel isn't starting him now, then he needs to take his chances from the bench. Also again, you said some players need minutes to find their form and yet when last season restarted in June, Pulisic found his form immediately and helped us to finish in the Top 4. 

Yes, you're right that Werner has had poor performances this season but I'm just not sure I agree with you on the recent games you're referring to him. As I said before, I'm all for Pulisic and others to start but given how out of form he has been and we have so many important/big games, can we really afford to start him? 

39 minutes ago, Azul said:

P.S. stop saying players are out of form based on 1 cup game they've played. The whole team was shit that day.

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and prove to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games!

Also let me ask this, if Werner had played against Barnsley and dropped a stinker, would you pile on him like you have been doing or would you excuse him because the whole team was shit that day?

41 minutes ago, Azul said:

Ziyech looked very good when he came on against Atletico.

This.

On 26/02/2021 at 03:19, OneMoSalah said:

Also a lot of people mentioning Ziyech and Havertz looked pretty good when they came on, not sure where they managed to make this impression from. Havertz played only like 3 minutes plus added time considering he came on in the 87th minute and Ziyech 16 minutes plus added time. Granted both looked fitter but they didnt do anything of particular notice that stuck out as to why they should be included in the starting 11 for the game.

 

[ZAPHOD2319 4,465]

Not sure if this means anything. These guys seem to get it wrong more than right.

 

Quote

Chelsea are set up to be counter-attacked, an area where United flourish, but it's hard to make a case for an away win when all angles are assessed. Like most meetings between the big boys this season, it's bound to be a tactical and very cagey affair with Chelsea dominating possession. One goal will probably do it for Tuchel.

JONES KNOWS PREDICTS: 1-0

BETTING ANGLE: Chelsea to win by one goal (3/1 with Sky Bet)

 

[Fulham Broadway 16,789]

We need to be two up to win this as its in the United/FA contract to have  their obligatory penalty

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

42 minutes ago, Jason said:

Abraham has barely scored. Giroud has barely scored until his last two games.

Look, we have different expectations from them. We know what they are capable of and for their role they are doing amazing job.

My opinion about Tammys overall game is the same as anyone but this season when he played more than 45 mins he did not contributed to the goals just three times. Spurs, Leicester and Rennes. And only LC was 90 mins game for him.

Giroud 1000 mins: 11 goals

Abraham 1500 mins: 12 goals.

Asking them to do more for backup roles is crazy. I saw stat that for the first time in like 20 years all 3 Chelsea strikers scored more than 10 goals in the season.

They are our 2 best goalscorers and scored 23 from 71 goals this season. 32% of all goals. 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by NikkiCFC

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Look, we have different expectations from them. We know what we are capable of and for their role they are doing amazing job.

My opinion about Tammys overall game is the same as anyone but this season when he played more than 45 mins he did not contributed to the goals just three times. Spurs, Leicester and Rennes. And only LC was 90 mins game for him.

Giroud 1000 mins: 11 goals

Abraham 1500 mins: 12 goals.

Asking them to do more for backup roles is crazy. I saw stat that for the first time in like 20 years all 3 Chelsea strikers scored more than 10 goals in the season.

They are our 2 best goalscorers and scored 23 from 71 goals this season. 32% of all goals.

Asking them to do more for backup roles is crazy? Mate, either one is basically being used to lead the line right now and since that's their role under Tuchel, then they have to score the goals as well. And let's not forget, you were banging on about getting results in the short term in the Alonso-Chilwell debate we had and in the short term, either one is being used as the main man through the middle. 

Also since you like breaking down the stats and all, I'll do it for this. Abraham has scored 12 goals but 5 of them came against Barnsley and Luton, meaning he's scored just 7 against better oppositions. Giroud may have scored 11 goals but 4 of them came in one game. So similar to Abraham, that means he's scored just 7 goals overall otherwise. 

[OneMoSalah 8,766]

3 hours ago, MONEYBALL said:

Very very short memory... So, for this home match against MU, may be the most important of the season, let's leave Giroud on the bench, play Havertz, Pulisic or Werner and pray what they didn't show yet this season , come back like a miracle for this game. And if the miracle does'nt come, let's hope another miracle, Giroud doing in 15 minutes the thing our young and pacy superstars would'nt 've been able to do in 75 minutes.

 

Thats why I said “maybe” and did say in another post afterwards I didn’t expect any changes bar Silva in for Christensen??

No clue how to put another quote in but the post was

”Werner down the middle. Ziyech/Pulisic/Havertz. Even then WBA just showed what a big CF can do against Maguire and Lindelof so wouldnt be surprised if Thiago Silva for Andreas was the only change. ”

Silva isnt fit though so probably be Christensen again. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Azul 1,615]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

So because we changed manager, we should just wipe the slate clean with everyone? If you're out here saying we should be expecting more from Werner, then shouldn't the same be expected of Pulisic, regardless of the manager? 

How is Werner getting all the stick for our problems upfront? Is he the only attacking player we play? Is he the only scorer and creator we have? Abraham has barely scored. Giroud has barely scored until his last two games. Mount has barely scored. We don't get goals from Jorginho (penalties excluded!), Kovacic and rarely from Alonso and CHO. Werner's end product is inconsistent. Mount's end product is inconsistent. Alonso's end product is inconsistent. CHO's end product is inconsistent. Abraham, Giroud don't even create many chances. Jorginho, Kovacic don't create chances. It's problem filtered throughout the team, not just one player. It's not as if we created much or looked like scoring a lot either in the two games that Werner did not play under Tuchel - Wolves and Barnsley.

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and proved to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games! You said most players need minutes to find their form, yeah, Pulisic got that from December-January a lot under Lampard but he did not show the kind of form he showed last season. Far from it. If you want to judge Werner for underperforming under Lampard, then the same should be applied to Pulisic. Let's not also forget how he broke into the first team last season as well. He impacted games from the bench for 2-3 games and eventually got his reward. If Tuchel isn't starting him now, then he needs to take his chances from the bench. Also again, you said some players need minutes to find their form and yet when last season restarted in June, Pulisic found his form immediately and helped us to finish in the Top 4. 

Yes, you're right that Werner has had poor performances this season but I'm just not sure I agree with you on the recent games you're referring to him. As I said before, I'm all for Pulisic and others to start but given how out of form he has been and we have so many important/big games, can we really afford to start him? 

I did not judge Pulisic's performance at Barnsley. I merely pointed out that the one start he had under Tuchel so far was a stinker and forget the team's performance overall, he did not do himself justice and prove to Tuchel why he deserved to start. No one is asking Pulisic to drop in a world class performance after just one game. It's a case of asking to show more life! Make impact in games!

Also let me ask this, if Werner had played against Barnsley and dropped a stinker, would you pile on him like you have been doing or would you excuse him because the whole team was shit that day?

This.

 

First of all, read my post carefully and I clearly said that, all the games you took to show Pulisics horrible form under Lampard was when the whole team was playing garbage. Meanwhile Werner was dropping stinkers in the unbeaten run under Lampard. 

Here we go again with the assumptions. I'm not saying Werner is to blame for everything, but he is the player that is performing the worst in attack. Tammy is midtable/relegation quality and I've said that before. Giroud when he starts usually scores, so I don't get where the Giroud slander is coming from to be honest. Mounts end product is not good enough and I've said that before. However he would have so many assists if Werner put most of his chances away this season. It's not his fault Werner keeps on missing 1 on 1 chances. 

Furthermore, let's not get off topic, comparing central midfielders and wingbacks to an attacker is pointless. Werner's job is to score or assist and Jorginho/Kova/Alonso/CHO have many other tasks. Having goal contributions is the least of their concerns.

Pulisic had a stinker against Barnsley and he did not help himself, I've already said that. However how does Werner warrant a start after dropping waaaaay more stinkers? The same logic you're using for Chilwell and Alonso is the logic I'm using right now. Chilwell had a stinker against Wolves, does that mean he has to rot on the bench? No! Because Alonso has not even played well recently. The same goes for Werner. Just because Pulisic was an impact coming off the bench last season does not mean that he has to stay on the bench and do the same thing again! Werner is not putting in performances to keep him on the bench, whats so hard to understand about that? We need to rotate, because it does not look like we'll thrive up front at the moment.

It's a weird question to ask me whether I'd give Werner shit for having a poor game against Barnsley...... Mate, Werner has been shit 90% of this season so why would I focus on one performance of his? I look at his progression as a whole, and he has not impressed me this season.

From what I gathered you have different standards for Pulisic than you have for Werner. One is able to have stinkers almost every game under Tuchel and still be in the line-up and the other should be on the bench after a single bad performance under Tuchel. It's the most mindboggling thing.

Ziyech and Havertz were press resistant when they came on. They felt very comfortable on the ball compared to other games this season. Ziyech was moving the ball well, and his pass to Werner should've resulted in something.

P.S. yes we can afford to start Pulisic in the next games, especially if Werner has another stinker against Man UTD. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Azul

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, Azul said:

First of all, read my post carefully and I clearly said that, all the games you took to show Pulisics horrible form under Lampard was when the whole team was playing garbage. Meanwhile Werner was dropping stinkers in the unbeaten run under Lampard. 

Is that really a good excuse? A player can't control the other 10 or 9 outfield players' performance but he can control his. The whole team was playing bad but did it stop someone like Mount from performing? We were shit in the past at times as well but did it, say, stop someone like Hazard, Costa, Drogba, Lampard etc from making the difference?

9 minutes ago, Azul said:

Furthermore, let's not get off topic, comparing central midfielders and wingbacks to an attacker is pointless. Werner's job is to score or assist and Jorginho/Kova/Alonso/CHO have many other tasks. Having goal contributions is the least of their concerns.

Were you saying Alonso or Moses or Fabregas had other tasks last time when they played in the same back 3 system under Conte? Alonso got goals at a decent rate back then. Moses chipped in a few here and there. You want to excuse Jorginho and Kovacic, fine. But the WBs in this system are expected to contribute in attack because of they are normally used and given how advanced Alonso and CHO have been getting forward, they should at the very least contribute assists.

11 minutes ago, Azul said:

Pulisic had a stinker against Barnsley and he did not help himself, I've already said that. However how does Werner warrant a start after dropping waaaaay more stinkers? The same logic you're using for Chilwell and Alonso is the logic I'm using right now. Chilwell had a stinker against Wolves, does that mean he has to rot on the bench? No! Because Alonso has not even played well recently. The same goes for Werner. Just because Pulisic was an impact coming off the bench last season means that he has to stay on the bench and do the same thing again! Werner is not putting in performances to keep him on the bench, whats so hard to understand about that? We need to rotate, because it does not look like we'll thrive up front at the moment.

I used the Pulisic example last season because he wasn't starting games back then but he started make impact off the bench and it made Lampard trust him and play him in the XI. Shouldn't the same thing be happening here? Assuming Tuchel doesn't trust Pulisic to start games right now, then he has to make impact off the bench and "force" Tuchel to start him. That's the point I was getting at.

15 minutes ago, Azul said:

From what I gathered you have different standards for Pulisic than you have for Werner. One is able to have stinkers almost every game under Tuchel and still be in the line-up and the other should be on the bench after a single bad performance under Tuchel. It's the most mindboggling thing.

Firstly, I don't deny that Werner has had stinkers this season. I just don't agree that his recent performances or contributions have been as bad as you're making them out to be. On top of that, he contributed to the goal at Spurs, both goals against Sheffield United and Newcastle recently. That's 6 points won right there. I had people coming at me when I said Giroud doesn't do much besides scoring because it seems like people are okay with that. Now that I point out Werner's goal contribution despite his inconsistent performances, much like Giroud, there are people not okay with it.

And secondly, if I have different standards for Pulisic, it's because this is his second season at the club and he showed what he could do last season. I had expected him to build on from there, to get better but instead, it looked like he has regressed. With Werner, sure he has had stinkers but just like with the other new signings, am willing to give them some leeway because it's only their first season in English football, first season at a new club, all during a pandemic season no less. Next season, hopefully with some form of return to normality, I would expect much more and better from Werner, Havertz, Ziyech etc.

All in all, it's clear that we have different view on things and we can argue till the cows come home without agreeing on them. So, let's just agree to disagree. All I'll say is, at this point, I don't care much any more. If Pulisic, Havertz etc can rediscover their form, then great because it means we will have more options to make things work for the rest of the season. Rotate, start them, play them over whoever. Otherwise, we could potentially be screwed. 

[Azul 1,615]

12 hours ago, Jason said:

Is that really a good excuse? A player can't control the other 10 or 9 outfield players' performance but he can control his. The whole team was playing bad but did it stop someone like Mount from performing? We were shit in the past at times as well but did it, say, stop someone like Hazard, Costa, Drogba, Lampard etc from making the difference?

Were you saying Alonso or Moses or Fabregas had other tasks last time when they played in the same back 3 system under Conte? Alonso got goals at a decent rate back then. Moses chipped in a few here and there. You want to excuse Jorginho and Kovacic, fine. But the WBs in this system are expected to contribute in attack because of they are normally used and given how advanced Alonso and CHO have been getting forward, they should at the very least contribute assists.

I used the Pulisic example last season because he wasn't starting games back then but he started make impact off the bench and it made Lampard trust him and play him in the XI. Shouldn't the same thing be happening here? Assuming Tuchel doesn't trust Pulisic to start games right now, then he has to make impact off the bench and "force" Tuchel to start him. That's the point I was getting at.

Firstly, I don't deny that Werner has had stinkers this season. I just don't agree that his recent performances or contributions have been as bad as you're making them out to be. On top of that, he contributed to the goal at Spurs, both goals against Sheffield United and Newcastle recently. That's 6 points won right there. I had people coming at me when I said Giroud doesn't do much besides scoring because it seems like people are okay with that. Now that I point out Werner's goal contribution despite his inconsistent performances, much like Giroud, there are people not okay with it.

And secondly, if I have different standards for Pulisic, it's because this is his second season at the club and he showed what he could do last season. I had expected him to build on from there, to get better but instead, it looked like he has regressed. With Werner, sure he has had stinkers but just like with the other new signings, am willing to give them some leeway because it's only their first season in English football, first season at a new club, all during a pandemic season no less. Next season, hopefully with some form of return to normality, I would expect much more and better from Werner, Havertz, Ziyech etc.

All in all, it's clear that we have different view on things and we can argue till the cows come home without agreeing on them. So, let's just agree to disagree. All I'll say is, at this point, I don't care much any more. If Pulisic, Havertz etc can rediscover their form, then great because it means we will have more options to make things work for the rest of the season. Rotate, start them, play them over whoever. Otherwise, we could potentially be screwed. 

Mount was incredibly average under Lampard in the November-January period so what is your point? Tell me how good Hazard/Costa/Fabregas were in 15/16 and 17/18 season? Did their form massively drop yes or no? Hazard in particular(plays in Pulisics position) was awful in both seasons because his team was playing very average. So your comparison is invalid.

Are we talking about Conte's system roles or Tuchels? You do realise there are major differences don't you? Jorginho and Kovacic have a different roles than Kante and Fabregas, so comparing them doesn't make sense to me, no offense. I agree with the wingbacks, they are tasked to contribute in attack, but again it's not to the extent of the contribution that the attackers have to bring. Hence why I said Werner is the biggest problem, and not the only problem.

I don't think you realise that Pulisic had to force his way into the starting XI because Lampard did not rate him. Jesse Marsch, who's the manager of Salzburg said that Lampard did not start Pulisic sooner because of his nationality and not because of his ability. Lampard has had his agendas, and his man management was awful. He even dropped Tomori for Rudiger/Christensen for whatever weird reason. So to use Pulisics situation under Lampard is not the same to be honest. Pulisic should not be in the same situation where he should force himself to earn some minutes, when the players who is ahead him is playing sub-par. The reason why Werner gets some goal contributions is because of the role he has. He is the attacker that is tasked to get in behind and cause havoc with his pace, and thats why he gets more opportunities to score than Giroud. Much like Poulsen who had the same role as Giroud Leipzig(he created chances for Werner), when Werner was actually more clinical than he is now. Giroud was in the World Cup and made Mbappe/Griezmann play much better because of his holdup/linkup play. So the reason why Giroud is not getting as much goal contributions as Werner is because his role is different. He is a better finisher than Werner and we all know that. I just want to see Pulisic in that role, because a fit and an in-form Pulisic has better: ball control, dribbling, link-up play, finishing, movement(compared to current Werner) and passing.

By the way I want Werner to succeed and that's why I'm not writing him off to be good in the future. However we are in desperate times and we should not focus on getting a players confidence up when he is underperforming. We should really focus on getting top four and progressing in the CL. Starting Werner in a crucial game might cost us if you look at his form this season.

But yeah we can agree to disagree.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Azul

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

2:0

Christensen 27'

Kovacic 71'

[Magic Lamps 11,649]

4 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

2:0

Christensen 27'

Kovacic 71'

nice one. with both players scoring almost never you will get absurd odds for that if you are a betting man. 

[OneMoSalah 8,766]

12 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

2:0

Christensen 27'

Kovacic 71'

Aye stick a fiver on those 2 scoring and 2-0 youll probably get a 6 figure return 🤣

[Special Juan 27,419]

They will get a pen 

[DanP2311 65]

On 26/02/2021 at 12:49, Azul said:

I think it's unfair to mention the games that got Lampard sacked when talking about Pulisic's performance. The whole squad was underperforming, so to look at those stats is irrelevant. Even Thiago Silva was conceding left and right, because we all know the team just had enough of Lampard. Werner was still underperforming when we were on a winning run under Frank. He was missing 1 on 1 chances for fun, yet he still started every single game.

Whether you like it or not Werner played wayyyyyy more games than Pulisic this season, and he still has not showed enough even after Tuchel was appointed. All I'm saying is that Werner has played atleast 6 out of the 8 games under Tuchel, and we're still struggling to score goals. I think Werner is a huge reason why we're inefficient up front. 

A funny thing I realised is that you judge Pulisic's Barnsley game but refuse to acknowledge every single time Werner has a stinker. Why does Pulisic have to put in a worldclass performance after starting just one game, when Werner has been incredibly average most games he's played? Give Pulisic the same run of games Werner has had and judge him based on that. Most players need minutes in order to find their form, and as far as I'm concerned Werner has had way too many minutes compared to Pulisic and still flops.

P.S. stop saying players are out of form based on 1 cup game they've played. The whole team was shit that day. Havertz has not even had the chance to prove himself under Tuchel to be honest, and Ziyech looked very good when he came on against Atletico.

 

Agree that one can’t judge Pulisic vs Werner until Pulisic gets the same look (minutes, games) Werner has gotten.

[Jase 43,479]

17 minutes ago, DanP2311 said:

Agree that one can’t judge Pulisic vs Werner until Pulisic gets the same look (minutes, games) Werner has gotten.

The funny thing about this Pulisic v Werner comparison is that Tuchel has used Pulisic in different positions.

Wolves - LWB (came on when Tuchel threw the kitchen sink and Werner didn't play; Havertz and Ziyech operated alongside Giroud upfront)

Burnley - Right ST (came on at HT and operated like a split striker on the right side of Werner)

Spurs - Right ST (came on in the second half and operated like a split striker on the right side of Werner)

Barnsley - LW (Werner didn't play)

Atletico - LW (came on for Werner but hard to judge much since it was only 3 mins and likely done to see out the game with fresh legs)

So where exactly does Tuchel see Pulisic's best position is? He already has different ideas to Lampard about other players' best position. And these are the numbers of where Tuchel used to play Pulisic at Dortmund:

Attacking Midfield - 27 games
Left Wing - 14
Right Wing - 29 

And before anyone jumps in and accuses of being biased etc, no, I'm not being pro or anti someone here. Just throwing out some observations.

[DanP2311 65]

If he has decided that he prefers Werner in attack when it’s either/or, and squeezes Pulisic in to other spots whenever he can, I don’t expect that to last into next season.

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, DanP2311 said:

If he has decided that he prefers Werner in attack when it’s either/or, and squeezes Pulisic in to other spots whenever he can, I don’t expect that to last into next season.

Well god knows at the moment. Tuchel sticking with the back 3 is limiting our options upfront and who would have expected Tuchel to play as a RWB. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, Special Juan said:

They will get a pen 

Probably more chance of Christensen giving away the penalty than scoring, as posted above.