The Tuchel Thread

[Clockwork 1,794]

1 hour ago, Hermione said:

Needed Spurs to get Top 4? He came in while most of us already gave up on Top 4, he brought us back in it, we had some issues but he showed his absolute class last season. It's pretty obvious the players in his attack are the fault not him, Ziyech, CHO and Pulisic are wildly inconsistent and unreliable while Lukaku is pure shit, no matter which manager comes in it will be the same.

Losing to Villa, Arsenal, West Brom(lol), and draw against Brighton toward the end of the season was quite bad. Without that CL victory him staying here longer than six months would have been questioned.

Nah his system is very unfriendly for attacking players. PSG had the same problem, how it was basically give the ball to Neymar and Mbappe let them create. 
 

pep and Klopp consistently squeeze more out of their attackers. On the other hand Tuchel has squeezed a lot more out of his defenders at Chelsea.

[Clockwork 1,794]

38 minutes ago, Jase said:

Minus the finishing issues, I'd say we were onto something last season with the system that we played. But then, we bought Lukaku, of all strikers, and things began to slowly go haywire and whatever good things we did last season went out of the window. 

We don’t create enough big chances compared to other top teams. Adding Lukaku has expedited the system weakness.

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

We don’t create enough big chances compared to other top teams. Adding Lukaku has expedited the system weakness.

Our league xG last season was 64. Only City (73.3) and Liverpool (72.6) have higher xG than us. The difference wasn't that huge.

Not gonna pretend we are great at creating chances consistently but there was definitely something exciting to work on from last season. However, we threw all of that out of the window the minute we bought an incompatible player. 

[Jase 43,479]

Tuchel vs Spurs:

W 3-0
W 2-1
W 1-0
W 3-0
W 2-0
W 1-0
W 2-0

[Superblue 6,372]

2 hours ago, Jase said:

Tuchel vs Spurs:

W 3-0
W 2-1
W 1-0
W 3-0
W 2-0
W 1-0
W 2-0

With that record, it's no wonder him and Chelsea seem such a great fit!

[OneMoSalah 8,788]

On 21/01/2022 at 18:50, Clockwork said:

Losing to Villa, Arsenal, West Brom(lol), and draw against Brighton toward the end of the season was quite bad. Without that CL victory him staying here longer than six months would have been questioned.

Nah his system is very unfriendly for attacking players. PSG had the same problem, how it was basically give the ball to Neymar and Mbappe let them create. 
 

pep and Klopp consistently squeeze more out of their attackers. On the other hand Tuchel has squeezed a lot more out of his defenders at Chelsea.

Disagree on the PSG point. In fact not just disagree, would say its completely inaccurate to say such a thing. Severely inaccurate if you look at the stats for goals scored. 

TT also had to come out whilst he was PSG manager and slam French journalists after only winning 1-0 v St Etienne and scoring 1 goal in 210 minutes. Then said about naming a team that scored 4 or 5 goals every game, which we know doesn’t happen unless your Man City or Liverpool sometimes. This was after PSG had scored 75 league goals in like 27 games that season….

(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8583213/amp/PSG-manager-Thomas-Tuchel-left-furious-asked-sides-lack-goals.html)

I mean how did PSG score 337 goals in 127 games under him if his system was unfriendly for attacking players? Thats nearly on average 3 goals a game (2.65 p/game) which triumphs his 251 goals in 107 games (2.35 goals p/game) at Dortmund, who apparently were the team he coached who played the ‘most offensive’ football of his managerial career in a similar amount of games. Can’t just say it was purely down to Neymar & Mbappe running around doing what they want.

And look at how tough Pochettino is finding it also to integrate Messi, Neymar and Mbappe into a functional attacking unit whilst also maintaining balance in the team. PSG are no better than they were under TT under Pochettino if you look at them, particularly last season they were probably worse meaning Lille won the title. But TT is Chelsea manager so lets make a completely inaccurate statement about his time at PSG to try and give backing to a point about why our own attacking players are underperforming and why we’ve dropped points due to not creating/scoring enough…. Sure.

Also I don’t care what anyone says, I really don’t think Pep and Klopp are squeezing more out of the likes of a lot of our attackers because they aren’t good enough (Pulisic, Werner, Ziyech - today only one game -, Lukaku). Hence why Klopp and Pep have significantly overhauled their whole squads since being at Liverpool and City to get players who suit the style and are good enough.

Edited January 23, 2022 by OneMoSalah

[NikkiCFC 8,060]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Disagree on the PSG point. In fact not just disagree, would say its completely inaccurate to say such a thing. Severely inaccurate if you look at the stats for goals scored. 

TT also had to come out whilst he was PSG manager and slam French journalists after only winning 1-0 v St Etienne and scoring 1 goal in 210 minutes. Then said about naming a team that scored 4 or 5 goals every game, which we know doesn’t happen unless your Man City or Liverpool sometimes. This was after PSG had scored 75 league goals in like 27 games that season….

(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8583213/amp/PSG-manager-Thomas-Tuchel-left-furious-asked-sides-lack-goals.html)

I mean how did PSG score 337 goals in 127 games under him if his system was unfriendly for attacking players? Thats nearly on average 3 goals a game (2.65 p/game) which triumphs his 251 goals in 107 games (2.35 goals p/game) at Dortmund, who apparently were the team he coached who played the ‘most offensive’ football of his managerial career in a similar amount of games. Can’t just say it was purely down to Neymar & Mbappe running around doing what they want.

And look at how tough Pochettino is finding it also to integrate Messi, Neymar and Mbappe into a functional attacking unit whilst also maintaining balance in the team. PSG are no better than they were under TT under Pochettino if you look at them, particularly last season they were probably worse meaning Lille won the title. But TT is Chelsea manager so lets make a completely inaccurate statement about his time at PSG to try and give backing to a point about why our own attacking players are underperforming and why we’ve dropped points due to not creating/scoring enough…. Sure.

Also I don’t care what anyone says, I really don’t think Pep and Klopp are squeezing more out of the likes of a lot of our attackers because they aren’t good enough (Pulisic, Werner, Ziyech - today only one game -, Lukaku). Hence why Klopp and Pep have significantly overhauled their whole squads since being at Liverpool and City to get players who suit the style and are good enough.

There is also this interview where he says: I will never say Neymar and Killian what to do, they will find solutions... So from this I take that attackers pretty much have free roles when attacking.

Edited January 24, 2022 by NikkiCFC

[Blue Armour 4,317]

Having spent nearly a year here, has anyone figured out Tuchel's squad rotation strategy?

He obviously has undroppables like Rudiger & Mendy.

And if I have to guess, everyone else gets an extended run of games (if form is decent) for around a month or so, before they make way for someone else., after either being burned out from use or by just injury/poor form.

Case in point: Alonso starting the first month or so of the campaign, before making way for Chillwell. Last month Pulisic. Now Mount & Ziyech.

I'm assuming he's keeping Havertz & Werner fresh and charged up for the coming weeks (Feb and beyond). Would be interesting to see.

[Blue Armour 4,317]

Dp.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Blue Armour

[OneMoSalah 8,788]

3 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

There is also this interview where he says: I will never say Neymar and Killian what to do, they will find solutions... So from this I take that that attackers pretty much have free roles when attacking.

I wouldnt necessarily say free roles for instance as I don’t think any top team can afford to necessarily give players a ‘free role’ in either offensive or defensive phases of the game now a days because everything is so much more tactical.

There has to be a structure, ideas and pattern of play in place to get the ball from one place to the other. Then when here the attackers can then use their own quality or initiative to do whatever then within the structure/system/framework whatever you want to call it.

Or thats what I took from it when hes alluded to when mentioning being like an orchestra, not suppressing creativity and then Neymar/Mbappe etc making decisions.

[Jase 43,479]

26 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I wouldnt necessarily say free roles for instance as I don’t think any top team can afford to necessarily give players a ‘free role’ in either offensive or defensive phases of the game now a days because everything is so much more tactical.

There has to be a structure, ideas and pattern of play in place to get the ball from one place to the other. Then when here the attackers can then use their own quality or initiative to do whatever then within the structure/system/framework whatever you want to call it.

Or thats what I took from it when hes alluded to when mentioning being like an orchestra, not suppressing creativity and then Neymar/Mbappe etc making decisions.

Would you then say we have a clear idea, pattern of play etc after 1 year into Tuchel's reign? 

As much as our attackers have been shit, inconsistent or whatever else you want to put in here, I don't think Tuchel has helped matters by constantly tweaking the tactical setups, rotating the attacking players. No one is gonna feel comfortable, confident etc if they are constantly rotated and/or being moved around into different positions from game to game. If you look at City and Liverpool, they have a settled system and tactical setups. Guardiola and Klopp might tweak things a little from time to time but they don't do it as much as Tuchel has done. Their players, I think, feel comfortable and confident because they know their position and they are put in position where they can be at their best. I mean, god knows how many times Tuchel has played Player A, B, C in various positions and then turned around to say "to be fair, Player A, B, C is best in this position but that isn't always available" or something along those lines. Their players are also similar while ours are different. They all bring different qualities. Moreover, we also don't seem to have a dominant style of play. When teams play City or Liverpool, they seem to fear them and have to adjust the way they play to cope with them because they have a clear, set style of play (even if everyone knows what they will try to do). City, Liverpool make teams fear them. Don't think we have that same fear factor and Tuchel always seems to be reacting by selecting players based on who the opposition is. 

[OneMoSalah 8,788]

3 hours ago, Jase said:

Would you then say we have a clear idea, pattern of play etc after 1 year into Tuchel's reign? 

As much as our attackers have been shit, inconsistent or whatever else you want to put in here, I don't think Tuchel has helped matters by constantly tweaking the tactical setups, rotating the attacking players. No one is gonna feel comfortable, confident etc if they are constantly rotated and/or being moved around into different positions from game to game. If you look at City and Liverpool, they have a settled system and tactical setups. Guardiola and Klopp might tweak things a little from time to time but they don't do it as much as Tuchel has done. Their players, I think, feel comfortable and confident because they know their position and they are put in position where they can be at their best. I mean, god knows how many times Tuchel has played Player A, B, C in various positions and then turned around to say "to be fair, Player A, B, C is best in this position but that isn't always available" or something along those lines. Their players are also similar while ours are different. They all bring different qualities. Moreover, we also don't seem to have a dominant style of play. When teams play City or Liverpool, they seem to fear them and have to adjust the way they play to cope with them because they have a clear, set style of play (even if everyone knows what they will try to do). City, Liverpool make teams fear them. Don't think we have that same fear factor and Tuchel always seems to be reacting by selecting players based on who the opposition is. 

I would say we do have a style of play but particularly in the final third, we seem to lack ideas or output due to a mix of a lack of quality/chemistry between players/continuity for some players who maybe need regular minutes to get into their groove/whatever else. 

Its fair to say we are a possession based team or at least thats what I would say. And on the shape and patterns, like most 3atb teams (usually what we use although this 4 and 3 hyrbids have come into it recently) we look to utilise overloads we’ve created outwide/centrally (or when we had RJ & BC fit) to stretch teams as well as having shown promising counter pressing and transitional play. Maybe not recently as this last 2 and a half months we’ve had some iffy results and performances but I don’t think its impossible to see an identity when we play. Obviously we aren’t that effective in the final third but this cannot discount all the other work we do in the first and second thirds of the pitch either. Against bigger teams it changes slightly but being a bit more flexible in these games isn’t necessarily a bad thing but again the principles don’t really change either, perhaps we just drop 10 or 15 yards deeper and don’t counter press as high. Undoubtedly now though 6 months in, after myself hoping TT could find some sort of tweak or change to utilise Rom, his integration has severely affected the pressing and the general play negatively. 

On TT & rotation or tweaks, I think this is just the nature of the beast with him especially considering the inconsistency in our front players as its pretty much a settled team elsewhere. From his time at Mainz, he mentioned changes in players and shapes in a presentation/conference/whatever you want to call it. I don’t know if you’ve already watched the video but at 17 minutes in, he goes into detail about preparing a game, making changes for a game v Werder Bremen whilst at Mainz and Sky saying to him about making 6 changes without him actually really realising he’s made 6 changes as before he mentions about him and his staff looking at the opposition and looking for where the advantages were. 

On Pep and Klopp tactics or styles of play in comparison to us under Tuchel, I don’t think its necessarily as straight forward to say that two managers who have had 5+ seasons at each club, signed players for their starting 11s/squads to suit their philosophies which they’ve predominantly signed the bulk of those players for (especially City with Pep) have got a defined style and that after 12 months, with a squad where he has actually only authorised 2 signings (Rom and Saul) that Tuchel should necessarily have this to the same degree that Pep and Klopp have. But what has impressed me is TT has shown over the last 12 months he can best these guys tactically.

I mean I still get the feeling he’s looking at the attacking players and going ‘jesus christ what in the fuck am I going to do to get more out of you’ because 1) hes generally got an improvement in players in every other position over the last 12 months and 2) I really don’t think we can rely on many of them to deliver consistently or to the elite level.

[NikkiCFC 8,060]

This is what he said after the game about formation and Ziyech. This is what happens when he finally plays on best position.

I think we are switching to 4atb permanently. 

“We tried a 4-1-4-1 formation today because we tried a 4-4-2 against them in the first match and that gave us an advantage but then they reacted to it in the second match.

“[We] had the players for the formation, players in shape, players who wanted and should be on the pitch, and good positions for them. [We] thought it could give us solutions to escape the high pressing, put the game in the opponent’s half, and have a bit more width without having wing backs [to] cause them problems.

“[Now] it gives us another option so well done.”

“It was one of [Ziyech’s] best matches today because he was very reliable. It was also maybe his best position to be on the wing. We had the wide position on the right wing, that position does not normally exist in that particular manner when we play 3-4-3, it is more of a wing back.

“Maybe we can think about doing this. It was good because it gave him the opportunity to take risks where it was possible to take risks. He was very reliable on the ball in moments where it is necessary. The work rate was always outstanding. You can always rely on him on work rate and counter-pressing. So yes, well done and he needs to keep on going like everyone else.”

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

I would say we do have a style of play but particularly in the final third, we seem to lack ideas or output due to a mix of a lack of quality/chemistry between players/continuity for some players who maybe need regular minutes to get into their groove/whatever else. 

So you do recognize that as a potential issue?

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

Its fair to say we are a possession based team or at least thats what I would say. And on the shape and patterns, like most 3atb teams (usually what we use although this 4 and 3 hyrbids have come into it recently) we look to utilise overloads we’ve created outwide/centrally (or when we had RJ & BC fit) to stretch teams as well as having shown promising counter pressing and transitional play. Maybe not recently as this last 2 and a half months we’ve had some iffy results and performances but I don’t think its impossible to see an identity when we play. Obviously we aren’t that effective in the final third but this cannot discount all the other work we do in the first and second thirds of the pitch either. Against bigger teams it changes slightly but being a bit more flexible in these games isn’t necessarily a bad thing but again the principles don’t really change either, perhaps we just drop 10 or 15 yards deeper and don’t counter press as high. Undoubtedly now though 6 months in, after myself hoping TT could find some sort of tweak or change to utilise Rom, his integration has severely affected the pressing and the general play negatively. 

We are a possession based team but yet we don't seem to scare teams much as City do.

I mean there are some clear patterns to how we play but at the same time, it's still hard to escape the fact that our attack has not clicked consistently after 1 year into Tuchel's time at the club.

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

On TT & rotation or tweaks, I think this is just the nature of the beast with him especially considering the inconsistency in our front players as its pretty much a settled team elsewhere. From his time at Mainz, he mentioned changes in players and shapes in a presentation/conference/whatever you want to call it. I don’t know if you’ve already watched the video but at 17 minutes in, he goes into detail about preparing a game, making changes for a game v Werder Bremen whilst at Mainz and Sky saying to him about making 6 changes without him actually really realising he’s made 6 changes as before he mentions about him and his staff looking at the opposition and looking for where the advantages were. 

Yes but doing it with mid-table side like Mainz in the Bundesliga is one thing. Doing it with a big club in the Premier League is another. 

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

On Pep and Klopp tactics or styles of play in comparison to us under Tuchel, I don’t think its necessarily as straight forward to say that two managers who have had 5+ seasons at each club, signed players for their starting 11s/squads to suit their philosophies which they’ve predominantly signed the bulk of those players for (especially City with Pep) have got a defined style and that after 12 months, with a squad where he has actually only authorised 2 signings (Rom and Saul) that Tuchel should necessarily have this to the same degree that Pep and Klopp have.

Okay, the other have had 5 years to build their own team but my original point still stands. They have a settled system, tactical setups and they don't change those as often as Tuchel has. IIRC, Guardiola did that a lot in his first at City and the results were not up to standards, to say the least. If Tuchel really did authorized Lukaku, especially, then you gotta worry about him getting his own signings in the future (not that the club's are perfect every time).

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

But what has impressed me is TT has shown over the last 12 months he can best these guys tactically.

Yes, Tuchel can best them tactically but over a game or two. Whether he can do that over 38 games remains to be seen.

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

I mean I still get the feeling he’s looking at the attacking players and going ‘jesus christ what in the fuck am I going to do to get more out of you’ because 1) hes generally got an improvement in players in every other position over the last 12 months and 2) I really don’t think we can rely on many of them to deliver consistently or to the elite level.

It's arguably much easier to get improvement out of defenders and midfielders. Getting the tune out of the attacking players and making them gel to make a great team is what separates the best from the rest. It's a reason why Mourinho got so much stick in the past. He was great at making teams great defensively but rubbish when it comes to forming a cohesive attacking unit. I don't think it's a straightforward thing to blame the players here when you yourself said above that the players perhaps suffer from a lack of continuity and you acknowledged the fact that Tuchel likes to tinker. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

This is what he said after the game about formation and Ziyech. This is what happens when he finally plays on best position.

I think we are switching to 4atb permanently. 

“We tried a 4-1-4-1 formation today because we tried a 4-4-2 against them in the first match and that gave us an advantage but then they reacted to it in the second match.

“[We] had the players for the formation, players in shape, players who wanted and should be on the pitch, and good positions for them. [We] thought it could give us solutions to escape the high pressing, put the game in the opponent’s half, and have a bit more width without having wing backs [to] cause them problems.

“[Now] it gives us another option so well done.”

“It was one of [Ziyech’s] best matches today because he was very reliable. It was also maybe his best position to be on the wing. We had the wide position on the right wing, that position does not normally exist in that particular manner when we play 3-4-3, it is more of a wing back.

“Maybe we can think about doing this. It was good because it gave him the opportunity to take risks where it was possible to take risks. He was very reliable on the ball in moments where it is necessary. The work rate was always outstanding. You can always rely on him on work rate and counter-pressing. So yes, well done and he needs to keep on going like everyone else.”

It's also the same Ziyech that did F all against Brighton while we played with a back 4. His better showings of late have all come against Spurs. Maybe he just hates them or maybe he has some sort of personal vendetta against them for that CL final loss with Ajax. The change to the back 4 only seemed to have helped Ziyech, at least yesterday. Our attacking plays haven't improved much and players are still being moved around like square pegs in round holes. 

[Jase 43,479]

Do you still want Luis Enrique @NikkiCFC?

[NikkiCFC 8,060]

7 hours ago, Jase said:

Do you still want Luis Enrique @NikkiCFC?

After TT, in a year or two, absolutely. 

Utd has no chance this summer because he will not drop WC. 

[Blues Forever 1,232]

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Blues Forever