The Tuchel Thread

[cosmicway 1,323]

59 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I can partly understand the emotional attachment with regards to Lampard because I think when you have a top tier club legend coming in, there's probably an even bigger desire and hope for them to do well and given his standing and lack of experience in coaching, I think that he could be afforded some slack last season, particularly as ultimately we ended up making the top 4 which a lot of people didn't expect us to do.

However, that can only last so far and any Chelsea fan using their head over their heart would say that there wasn't any improvement on last season. If anything it was getting progressively worse, and he didn't seem to have answers to the questions. For the sake of saving the season unfortunately Lampard had to go and so far, that has been emphatically justified.

One of the biggest gripes it seemed with changing the manager was the academy players and the mass hysteria regarding our line up for the Wolves game I think just exacerbated this point. But he's shown so far that the academy players will play a big part in his group, alongside the more experienced players. 

The difference between Tuchel and Benitez like has been pointed out is that Tuchel has never done anything to disrespect or antagonise the fan base. If we keep winning games and he can keep evolving this team then that part of the fan base's discontent will dissipate in time. He's actually probably benefited from no fans in the stadium for these initial games and if we continue the good form, I don't see issues when the fans are back.

Regarding Tuchel, I was sceptical at first but only really because of his past history of falling out with the board and becoming difficult to manage. He has addressed this and hopefully it is something he is working on, rather than trying to pull the wool over people's eyes a la Mourinho. Away from that though he looks like being a top manager in the making for us, tactically on point, intelligent, charismatic. I think he could end up being a real blessing in disguise for the young group of players we have within our squad.

The reasons for the Lampard wall were as follows:

phase 1 - September-October 2020: No preparation, friendly matches - Kepa.
phase 2 - Christmas 2020-January: The two ace transfers Werner-Havertz were not performing.

Overall however we have to look at the predicament of the others as well.
Spurs-Arsenal and Pool are struggling.
With the exception of Pep they are not doing so well either.

The main problem of this team is speed of movement.
During Antonio's first year we saw some improvement but the problem persisted under all managers.
Hazard was covering up for this but he's gone and we need to become speedier.
This calls for stamina of course. Everybody can run fast but stamina ?

[Superblue 6,370]

10 minutes ago, Jason said:

I don't want to pile onto Lampard here but having read those inside stories that came out after his sacking, it feels like Lampard was only able to motivate those young, English players because of his status and what he achieved as a player. He seemed to rely on that. The academy players look up to him for obvious reasons and he also wanted English players like Rice and Chilwell (not that they are bad players). And then you have the foreign players. While they may also look up to Lampard, they came from a different league/country/culture, don't have that emotional connection and expected something more than whatever basic things that Lampard was doing.

Agree, I think I mentioned this the other day before the old forum was restored, but every time they'd show training clips under Lampard it was almost always rondos and shooting practice.

I know they can't show too much that would give away tactics, etc but already clips and photos of Tuchel's training seem so much more technical and varied.

The other thing to note is just how animated Tuchel is on the sidelines and in training, regularly giving instructions and encouragement. Again, under Lampard, that just didn't seem to happen so it only put him in a worse light when we're losing games or playing poor and he seems to be offering nothing to the team from the bench.

[Vytis33 1,144]

Really enjoying his interviews so far.  Comes across very genuine and thoughtful in his answers

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Agree, I think I mentioned this the other day before the old forum was restored, but every time they'd show training clips under Lampard it was almost always rondos and shooting practice.

I know they can't show too much that would give away tactics, etc but already clips and photos of Tuchel's training seem so much more technical and varied.

The other thing to note is just how animated Tuchel is on the sidelines and in training, regularly giving instructions and encouragement. Again, under Lampard, that just didn't seem to happen so it only put him in a worse light when we're losing games or playing poor and he seems to be offering nothing to the team from the bench.

Yeah and CHO already threw shade at Lampard regarding your last point there...

 

[Milan 17,853]

11 minutes ago, Jason said:

Yeah and CHO already threw shade at Lampard regarding your last point there...

In addition to this, I remember a few players, including Thiago Silva, speaking on Tuchel's appointment and saying how they are hoping TT will raise the tactics levels and improve the tactical approach.

What the hell were Lampard and Morris doing in the sessions?!

[MoroccanBlue 5,297]

Whilst I appreciate Tuchel building the foundation first ahead of doing anything else, we desperately need to see the attack clicking soon. Werner looks to be back, now just need Ziyech, Pulisic, and Havertz to find their form again. 

Thursday the perfect opportunity to do so and to implement the 4-2-4 formation. 

[Jase 43,479]

26 minutes ago, Milan said:

In addition to this, I remember a few players, including Thiago Silva, speaking on Tuchel's appointment and saying how they are hoping TT will raise the tactics levels and improve the tactical approach.

What the hell were Lampard and Morris doing in the sessions?!

Worked them hard but not worked them smart. Lampard was just always talking about showing more energy, working hard, running more etc. 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

39 minutes ago, Milan said:

In addition to this, I remember a few players, including Thiago Silva, speaking on Tuchel's appointment and saying how they are hoping TT will raise the tactics levels and improve the tactical approach.

What the hell were Lampard and Morris doing in the sessions?!

Fuck knows, but it wasnt tactics, it wasnt clever approach most times. This job was sadly too big for FL, he needed much more experience.

[Blue Armour 4,278]

I've liked how he has gotten more out of Kovacic and Jorginho since his arrival. They are far better now than they have been all season. I guess all the additional instruction and close control training sessions with the small football are working.

Jorginho even did well in the face of Sheffields high press, something he normally struggles with.

Still have concerns with that pairing for the long term. Kovacic runs well with the ball, and he attempts more through balls, but he needs players playing further ahead to make the most.  Plus, he can't finish. For someone with such excellent close control, his shots tend to balloon off his feet.

Jorginho's passing is also too slow and sideways at times. It slows down our play, and when we don't have Thiago Silva at the back, the CB's and him almost combine to make it lethargic. 

Hope Tuchel tries Gilmour in the upcoming cup game, and see how he can benefit his midfield. 

[DDA 9,690]

9 hours ago, Jason said:

I don't want to pile onto Lampard here but having read those inside stories that came out after his sacking, it feels like Lampard was only able to motivate those young, English players because of his status and what he achieved as a player. He seemed to rely on that. The academy players look up to him for obvious reasons and he also wanted English players like Rice and Chilwell (not that they are bad players). And then you have the foreign players. While they may also look up to Lampard, they came from a different league/country/culture, don't have that emotional connection and expected something more than whatever basic things that Lampard was doing.

Thats exactly how it seemed from the outside looking in. It was asif Werner and Havertz turned up expecting something special and were left underwhelmed by what Frank was presenting in training and game to game approach.

[Blue Armour 4,278]

43 minutes ago, Mana said:

Lampard is a rookie. It was evident shown in his era that he had no idea what he was doing. He had two great (but short) runs in his tenure.

Like I said when we appointed him, having a rookie coach and a rookie squad is a recipe for disaster. Who's learning from who? Where's the experience?

Azpi isn't a leader in my eyes. Good solid hardworker, but not a leader. Giroud is different to Abraham and Lampard shadowed him out anyway. Willian was shite and could actually be poisonous. Kante was at the time WC, but no leadership qualities.

Lampard then made his life worse by bringing in expensive players who are inexperienced in the PL. Not only he has to continue finding a way to coach the young rookies, but also coach the new players who are inexperienced in English football. He probably thought Werner, Havertz, Ziyech etc. would just "click" instantly and didn't have to do much.

He couldn't handle it. Hence the "Chelsea are not ready to compete" comment after the disgusting Leicester defeat.

Wonder how much of that is on Lampard though. According to the Athletic, his personal signing of the summer was only Chillwell. The rest were dictated by the club. Granted, as a manager he would have had a hand in convincing them to come, using his reputation as a player. But I doubt he was the one who convinced the club to cough up the amount of money we did for Havertz. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, Blue Armour said:

Wonder how much of that is on Lampard though. According to the Athletic, his personal signing of the summer was only Chillwell. The rest were dictated by the club. Granted, as a manager he would have had a hand in convincing them to come, using his reputation as a player. But I doubt he was the one who convinced the club to cough up the amount of money we did for Havertz. 

But The Telegraph claimed Chilwell, Ziyech and Werner were Lampard's picks. 

Regardless though, Lampard bought into those signings and for example in Werner's unveiling presser, he talked about Lampard talked to him a lot, before the signing happened, about the tactics, where he would play, how the team's gonna play etc. Also mentioned he was sent videos and all that too. Can't remember if Ziyech said similar but both he and Werner said they joined the club because of Lampard after his persuasion. 

Am really curious as to what Lampard said to them because it feels like what he said in convincing them to join us turned out to be totally different to what eventually happened on the pitch. 

[Jase 43,479]

4 hours ago, DDA said:

Thats exactly how it seemed from the outside looking in. It was asif Werner and Havertz turned up expecting something special and were left underwhelmed by what Frank was presenting in training and game to game approach.

Exactly. Werner, Havertz, Ziyech all played under managers and at a club, where there is a clear tactical system in place, a clear style of play and they each have a defined role that allowed them to shine in that system. They came here and suddenly experienced something totally opposite in Lampard's freestyle football. 

[DDA 9,690]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

Exactly. Werner, Havertz, Ziyech all played under managers and at a club, where there is a clear tactical system in place, a clear style of play and they each have a defined role that allowed them to shine in that system. They came here and suddenly experienced something totally opposite in Lampard's freestyle football. 

And freestyle football is exactly what it became. Frank was even on record saying, "I'm not too worried about the attack, that will sort itself out". That was when I really started to worry. Ziyech was the most noticeable for me.... he looked completed shell-shocked by what he was experiencing. He looks happier in training now under Tuchel... asif he knows that he won't be wasting the twilight years of his career. Could be looking into abit too much but there were definitely signs of what is being said.

[Tomo 21,733]

Just now, DDA said:

And freestyle football is exactly what it became. Frank was even on record saying, "I'm not too worried about the attack, that will sort itself out". That was when I really started to worry. Ziyech was the most noticeable for me.... he looked completed shell-shocked by what he was experiencing. He looks happier in training now under Tuchel... asif he knows that he won't be wasting the twilight years of his career. Could be looking into abit too much but there were definitely signs of what is being said.

Tbf letting your attack "freestyle" in the final third isn't nesseserily that bad a thing atleast sometimes, if you micromanage their final third movements too much there's a risk it could look like LVG ball.

Where the coaches are needed the most are the first two thirds of the pitch and in that respect you can see the huge improvement already. Henry said that was pretty much how Pep managed at Barca, told his squad that he will help them to the final third but then it was down to them.

[DDA 9,690]

13 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Tbf letting your attack "freestyle" in the final third isn't nesseserily that bad a thing atleast sometimes, if you micromanage their final third movements too much there's a risk it could look like LVG ball.

Where the coaches are needed the most are the first two thirds of the pitch and in that respect you can see the huge improvement already. Henry said that was pretty much how Pep managed at Barca, told his squad that he will help them to the final third but then it was down to them.

Didn't Henry also say that as a winger you would have to run into the box or in behind the defence every time the CM's received the ball and if you didn't make that run regardless of not receiving it 10 times before you would be taken off. That to me is guidance on how to attack. He also coached attacking patterns in which the players grew accustomed too, these patters becoming almost second nature... then their own ability blended with these patters and structure resulted in something beautiful. I get what your saying but under Frank... there was no idea whatsoever it seemed.

Edited February 9, 2021 by DDA

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, DDA said:

And freestyle football is exactly what it became. Frank was even on record saying, "I'm not too worried about the attack, that will sort itself out". That was when I really started to worry. Ziyech was the most noticeable for me.... he looked completed shell-shocked by what he was experiencing. He looks happier in training now under Tuchel... asif he knows that he won't be wasting the twilight years of his career. Could be looking into abit too much but there were definitely signs of what is being said.

Lampard also talked too much about relying on individual quality, the need to show more energy, outrun the opposition etc. He was almost dismissive of tactics on some occasions. That was when the alarm bells really started ringing for me. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

Tbf letting your attack "freestyle" in the final third isn't nesseserily that bad a thing atleast sometimes, if you micromanage their final third movements too much there's a risk it could look like LVG ball.

Where the coaches are needed the most are the first two thirds of the pitch and in that respect you can see the huge improvement already. Henry said that was pretty much how Pep managed at Barca, told his squad that he will help them to the final third but then it was down to them.

Agree with your point about micromanaging but the problem with Lampard's freestyle football is that the players did not seem to have a defined role or position under him. It became a case of Lampard just putting players in this and that position and just letting them do their own things, without any obvious tactical plan. It's basically the opposite of micromanaging. There's no balance between the two. It's why as a team, we always looked loose under Lampard. Compare and contrast what we saw under him to what Tuchel said and what we've seen so far under him:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/feb/03/thomas-tuchel-determined-to-get-the-right-tune-out-of-Chelsea

“I believe in a disciplined structure,” Tuchel said. “It gives us the chance to play faster because everybody knows where the other guy is. It gives us the chance to give every player a couple of possibilities to choose. When we lose the ball we can start effective counter-pressing.

“It’s just to give possibilities and it always stays the choice of the players, what decision they take. Maybe Mason Mount goes for a different solution than Hakim Ziyech on the same position, for sure he will than for Kai Havertz, but I absolutely want that they have all one, two, three, four options to take. There are players that will take the fifth one or sixth one that I don’t even think about.”