Mikel John Obi

[Shaan 263]

I always see this boring stats bullshit to prove if mikel is excellent or shit... rarely see questions like if we can improve the position mikel plays with another player or create competion for him to see if he can really deliver for our first team squad consitently with pressure , personallly I think we can get better player for his position and the system & style we are trying to play......

[Phil Driver 503]

@Phil Driver, I have got a nice little stat for you that proves this Mikel stat you keep rolling out is completely and utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Before the Club World Cup last season these were our stats with and without Azpilicueta.

With Azpi: Won 3 Drew 4 Lost 4

May i note that in those 3 wins one of them in extra time, another to Wolves's B team and the other he came on when we were 4-1 up.

Without Azpi: Won 10 Drew 1 Lost 2

Now despite those stats he was widely regarded as one of our best players in the first 6 months, which just proves those stats alone can't be used as damning evidence against Mikel.

Nice little stat that .

Here is a fact not a stat ,the last time I saw Dave he was knackered after having been given the run around by Luke Shaw (now there is a player) and I would also say to you with stats like that you can expect not to be a starter for Chelsea and he was awful in the Europa League Final ,remind me how many games has Dave played this season ? and who is first choice?

Dave has not been at Chelsea for seven years so there is still time for him .

[Phil Driver 503]

CHOULOU saying stats are irrelevant now?

Not as irrelevant as his graph that showed where Mikel stood on the pitch and he titled it "Action Areas"

I suppose a 95% slow backwards and sideways pass completion rate that slows our counter attacks down do it for some ,not for me .

What I want from my DM is someone who can close Osman down( and many others over the years) on the edge of our box and not let him waltz past unchallanged and create the goal .

We need much more from a DM than slow passes that slow our counters down and is a terrible defender with NO awareness .

And yes that stat on pass completion is the bigget fraud of a stat anyone can state.

[robsblubot 3,529]

CHOULOU saying stats are irrelevant now?

Not as irrelevant as his graph that showed where Mikel stood on the pitch and he titled it "Action Areas"

I suppose a 95% slow backwards and sideways pass completion rate that slows our counter attacks down do it for some ,not for me .

What I want from my DM is someone who can close Osman down( and many others over the years) on the edge of our box and not let him waltz past unchallanged and create the goal .

We need much more from a DM than slow passes that slow our counters down and is a terrible defender with NO awareness .

And yes that stat on pass completion is the bigget fraud of a stat anyone can state.

Win/lose ratio as a team with and without Mikel are the only stats that matter to me. It's a team sport after all. Pass completion means nothing... because it does not show the quality of the passing.

I would certainly like if Mikel had the pace to quickly close down players like you wrote, however even then he would still not be good enough for me. A modern player at t top side must be able to contribute in attack somehow. That play he lost the football on his own, without pressure, was embarrassing to say the least.

I think it's my Brazilian background (way of seeing the game) talking here, but technique/quality manifests itself in tight spaces and in goals/assists - not in side passes.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Haven't been following discussion but w/e I thought he was pretty good at Everton

[Phil Driver 503]

He was ,he was good at what he does .

Is what he does and what he is capable of enough? How does what he contributes effect the team and the results ?

What did he do ,he had a 95% pass completion rate that slowed us up and he allowed Osman to waltz past him for the goal .

I need him to clip a first time pass over the top now and again to stretch their back four ,I need him to crunch into a tackle and spring a counter . I need him to disposses Osman in their half like Maka used to and find Lampard like he did for that wonderful goal v Bayern Munich ,I have never seen him do it ? Maybe he has ,not very often though . Everything is slow and in front of the opposition ,they know what to expect ,it will be a slow build up with a couple of touches and a safe pass. I need him to not ball watch and to stay with runners,and be aware of what is around him . He doesnt do enough for me ,John Terry must have a 95% successful pass rate ,but is that all he has?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Win/lose ratio as a team with and without Mikel are the only stats that matter to me. It's a team sport after all. Pass completion means nothing... because it does not show the quality of the passing.

I would certainly like if Mikel had the pace to quickly close down players like you wrote, however even then he would still not be good enough for me. A modern player at t top side must be able to contribute in attack somehow. That play he lost the football on his own, without pressure, was embarrassing to say the least.

I think it's my Brazilian background (way of seeing the game) talking here, but technique/quality manifests itself in tight spaces and in goals/assists - not in side passes.

I used an individual stat of Mikel's to back up a point about Mikel. You have every right to point out what you think is the logical gap in my argument. While you have been (over, and over again for the past 5 pages or so) trying to make conclusions about Mikel based on a team stat. That is an incredibly flawed logic because there are tons of other variables involved as has been proved above with examples.

Win/lose ratio as a team with and without Mikel are the only stats that matter to me.

Really? How do those stats even relate to the player himself? And so you think we should have benched Drogba from 2008 to 2011? Should Rooney be a bench-warmer for united? And Barcelona should have gotten rid of Messi a couple of seasons ago?

[Jase 43,479]

@Phil Driver, I have got a nice little stat for you that proves this Mikel stat you keep rolling out is completely and utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Before the Club World Cup last season these were our stats with and without Azpilicueta.

With Azpi: Won 3 Drew 4 Lost 4

May i note that in those 3 wins one of them in extra time, another to Wolves's B team and the other he came on when we were 4-1 up.

Without Azpi: Won 10 Drew 1 Lost 2

Now despite those stats he was widely regarded as one of our best players in the first 6 months, which just proves those stats alone can't be used as damning evidence against Mikel.

Nice little stat that .

Here is a fact not a stat ,the last time I saw Dave he was knackered after having been given the run around by Luke Shaw (now there is a player) and I would also say to you with stats like that you can expect not to be a starter for Chelsea and he was awful in the Europa League Final ,remind me how many games has Dave played this season ? and who is first choice?

Dave has not been at Chelsea for seven years so there is still time for him .

When you judge Mikel, you only focus on his stats. Whatever you say about him, people debate with you, you go back to his stats and not wanting to look beyond. BUT yet with Azpi, you did not focus on his stats only and instead, deciding to look beyond that.

[Phil Driver 503]

What? ,I think I said that Dave's stats may well have something to do with him not being in the team ,not one of our best performers for me and the stats back that up and hence he has not played this season . Now do me a favour ,put Lampard's stats up when he starts my reading of Mikel is not just based on stats ,there is also an opinion of what I see in him above ,the stats back what I say up ,especially with regard to his passing which is safe,slow,predictable and negative . I am of the opinion his inclusion in our team badly influences our ability to win matches that is what I see and the reasons are given above ,the stats ONLY back that opinion up.

[Phil Driver 503]

I used an individual stat of Mikel's to back up a point about Mikel. You have every right to point out what you think is the logical gap in my argument. While you have been (over, and over again for the past 5 pages or so) trying to make conclusions about Mikel based on a team stat. That is an incredibly flawed logic because there are tons of other variables involved as has been proved above with examples.

You used a chart that showed where Mikel was standing and called it "action areas" and you use his pass completion stat as evidence he is a great player even though his passes are slow and negative . His terrible win play stats only back up the fact that when he plays we are likely to lose/draw. These are the reasons why without stats -

Is what he does and what he is capable of enough? How does what he contributes effect the team and the results ? What did he do ,he had a 95% pass completion rate that slowed us up and he allowed Osman to waltz past him for the goal . I need him to clip a first time pass over the top now and again to stretch their back four ,I need him to crunch into a tackle and spring a counter . I need him to disposses Osman in their half like Maka used to and find Lampard like he did for that wonderful goal v Bayern Munich ,I have never seen him do it ? Maybe he has ,not very often though . Everything is slow and in front of the opposition ,they know what to expect ,it will be a slow build up with a couple of touches and a safe pass. I need him to not ball watch and to stay with runners,and be aware of what is around him . He doesnt do enough for me ,John Terry must have a 95% successful pass rate ,but is that all he has?

[Phil Driver 503]

According to Jose's press conference ,not injured and not in the team tomorrow? Without Rammy as well.

[robsblubot 3,529]

I used an individual stat of Mikel's to back up a point about Mikel. You have every right to point out what you think is the logical gap in my argument. While you have been (over, and over again for the past 5 pages or so) trying to make conclusions about Mikel based on a team stat. That is an incredibly flawed logic because there are tons of other variables involved as has been proved above with examples.

Really? How do those stats even relate to the player himself? And so you think we should have benched Drogba from 2008 to 2011? Should Rooney be a bench-warmer for united? And Barcelona should have gotten rid of Messi a couple of seasons ago?

Why did we play better and won far more games without Drogba vs with him or it was the other way around? Did Barcelona play better without Messi than with him or has it always been the other way around? I am not saying the player is the sole responsible for the teams performance, but at some point you need to assess whether the SYSTEM, the TEAM, does better with or without him.

And you've been tying his short-passing completion (a completely useless stat) for the past 50 pages or so to quality. That's precisely where we completely disagree; you find his contribution adequate while I find it completely inadequate based on his embarrassing contribution in attack (if you go by individual numbers alone).

again, we will find out soon enough how important a player Mikel is for Mourinho.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Why did we play better and won far more games without Drogba vs with him or it was the other way around? Did Barcelona play better without Messi than with him or has it always been the other way around? I am not saying the player is the sole responsible for the teams performance, but at some point you need to assess whether the SYSTEM, the TEAM, does better with or without him.

And you've been tying his short-passing completion (a completely useless stat) for the past 50 pages or so to quality. That's precisely where we completely disagree; you find his contribution adequate while I find it completely inadequate based on his embarrassing contribution in attack (if you go by individual numbers alone).

again, we will find out soon enough how important a player Mikel is for Mourinho.

Well, if you read last page, you would have seen that we had a 0% loss without Drogba for about three seasons, and that was when he was at his peak. United had a better win percentage without Rooney last season and Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi a couple of seasons ago. So the win/loss percentage with and without a player, which you said is the only one that mattered would have suggested that those players are causing their teams to lose when in fact they are the key players.

How can you deny that it is due to quality when he plays the most passes (and the most forward passes among our midfielders) at the highest accuracy in the whole team? And how can pass completion be useless? How do you score if you can't pass and how do you not concede if you keep giving the ball away with missed passes?

You might not like this style of football, but our system requires a holding midfielder and we have been playing with a holding midfielder who sits deep and makes the easy passes whether it be Ramires or Mikel.

[robsblubot 3,529]

Well, if you read last page, you would have seen that we had a 0% loss without Drogba for about three seasons, and that was when he was at his peak. United had a better win percentage without Rooney last season and Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi a couple of seasons ago. So the win/loss percentage with and without a player, which you said is the only one that mattered would have suggested that those players are causing their teams to lose when in fact they are the key players.

How can you deny that it is due to quality when he plays the most passes (and the most forward passes among our midfielders) at the highest accuracy in the whole team? And how can pass completion be useless? How do you score if you can't pass and how do you not concede if you keep giving the ball away with missed passes?

You might not like this style of football, but our system requires a holding midfielder and we have been playing with a holding midfielder who sits deep and makes the easy passes whether it be Ramires or Mikel.

The quote you mentioned from last page is incomplete: how many games? what are they? Where were they played? The list you've been given for Mikel had all those! Once again, I'd be extremely worried if the team I was part performed better without me.

Because short passes are easy! Have you even played semi-professionally? I am NOT a good player and still always had an easy time with short passing, especially without pressure - even my long ones weren't too bad.

You keep saying that about our system, but Mikel has never become more than a rotation player and we don't even have a sub for the DM position with Romeu on loan. Also, I look at the other top sides and they all play without one pure holding mid like Mikel. They play with players who can create and score on occasion. Who are far more involved in the attacking process than Mikel can ever be.

It's not about style, it's a bout quality or lack thereof. I don't think Mikel has good technique because he can't shoot for his life, can't dribble, can't play long balls. Isn't creative, as his 0 assists will showcase. He just has a hard time in tight spaces.

[Phil Driver 503]

None of those stats relate to Drogba's ,Messi's,Rooney's contribution when they were in the team ,they will be very positive

.When these players play you win more than you lose,another red herring like the "Action areas" I am afraid . To suggest that when these players play they could end up with play/win stats like Mikel or Dave is obscene.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

The quote you mentioned from last page is incomplete: how many games? what are they? Where were they played? The list you've been given for Mikel had all those! Once again, I'd be extremely worried if the team I was part performed better without me.

Because short passes are easy! Have you even played semi-professionally? I am NOT a good player and still always had an easy time with short passing, especially without pressure - even my long ones weren't too bad.

You keep saying that about our system, but Mikel has never become more than a rotation player and we don't even have a sub for the DM position with Romeu on loan. Also, I look at the other top sides and they all play without one pure holding mid like Mikel. They play with players who can create and score on occasion. Who are far more involved in the attacking process than Mikel can ever be.

It's not about style, it's a bout quality or lack thereof. I don't think Mikel has good technique because he can't shoot for his life, can't dribble, can't play long balls. Isn't creative, as his 0 assists will showcase. He just has a hard time in tight spaces.

It simply comes down to what you expect/want out of a defensive midfielder. Citing goal and assist totals from a true defensive midfielder is ridiculous because that's not their job at all. According to you, Makalele was useless because he contributed almost nothing offensively. Same with "being creative". Teams don't have 11 creative players. You don't need your defensive midfielder to be creative. It's just not his job. Mikel is certainly not an elite player but he's a very decent defensive midfielder and he does his job (staying in his lanes, tackling, not turning the ball over) very well unfortunately for him, Mikel does things that people don't appreciate. To me, he is a more valuable offensive player than Luiz whose sum contributions are a massive negative to the team. Yes, he can score a couple of goals, but if it takes 60 shots to get them, it hurts the team. Yes, he can make a great pass, but if it takes 5 turnovers to get it, it hurts the team. There is incredible value in keeping possession as there is in covering for defenders who are out of position. You could also see against Everton, the way Mikel covered for players all over the pitch when Cole and Luiz especially were out of position. I can appreciate wanting to upgrade, but the hatred of Mikel is so completely insane and hard to understand.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The quote you mentioned from last page is incomplete: how many games? what are they? Where were they played? The list you've been given for Mikel had all those! Once again, I'd be extremely worried if the team I was part performed better without me.

Because short passes are easy! Have you even played semi-professionally? I am NOT a good player and still always had an easy time with short passing, especially without pressure - even my long ones weren't too bad.

You keep saying that about our system, but Mikel has never become more than a rotation player and we don't even have a sub for the DM position with Romeu on loan. Also, I look at the other top sides and they all play without one pure holding mid like Mikel. They play with players who can create and score on occasion. Who are far more involved in the attacking process than Mikel can ever be.

It's not about style, it's a bout quality or lack thereof. I don't think Mikel has good technique because he can't shoot for his life, can't dribble, can't play long balls. Isn't creative, as his 0 assists will showcase. He just has a hard time in tight spaces.

Rooney missed 11 matches from 38 last season for united including two games against liverpool. Drogba missed a whole lot of games in those three seasons because there were two AFCON's in there and that's not counting his injuries. Winning or losing cannot be attributed to one player and it does not necessarily mean the team played better. We were terrible against Villa but still won while we were much better against Everton but lost. But then you make the conclusion from that stat that the team played better without Mikel even though he was MOTM!

Just for the record, Mikel does not only play short passes, last season, he had the longest average pass length between anyone who played in the pivot (joint highest with Lampard IIRC). But short passes are not easy. If they are then why do top players even like Lampard miss some in every game. One or two short passes are easy, but getting 55 out of 60 in a game correct is not. That consistency is where the quality is.

Most top teams play with a holding midfielder. United have carrick who plays the exact same game of Mikel. Tottenham currently have Paulinho who is no where near as good as Mikel. Arsenal have Arteta who is good on the ball but can't defend and occupy spaces like Mikel. City play with three in midfield so it's different, but the used to have Barry for the job and now he's doing it at Everton. Even Barcelona would not be half as effective as they are now without the best holding midfielder currently in the world that is Busquets.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Mikel does things that people don't appreciate.

Is that all people, or just Chelsea supporters?

How are you able to 'appreciate' these gifts when others can't?