Mikel John Obi

[Fernando 6,389]

Well at least Mikel now get the stick.

Cause last season it was always Benitez and Torres fault!

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Well who has come into English football and had stats that (on the face of it) look that bad? All im saying is their is more to it than just the mere results.

But even taking that point into consideration here is another example, Werder Breman last year with De Bruyne in it didn't win any of their last 12, then without him they win two in a row and only just lose to Dortmund in their 3rd.

I remember a couple of seasons ago, throughout an entire season, Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi which was obviously less with him in the team. So by this logic he should have been dropped.

There are way too many variables involved to try to make conclusions about an individual player based on team winning stats. There are 21 other players on the field, plus manager tactics, plus the referee, not to mention the general luck or randomness off football. All those affect the final result other than the player in question.

You need only to look at recent examples to see how misleading this stat can be. For example in our last match against Everton we lost despite dominating the game and Mikel being our MOTM while against Villa we won despite being dominated by Villa and Lampard, Mikel's direct replacement, was a passenger throughout the match.

[Tomo 21,685]

I remember a couple of seasons ago, throughout an entire season, Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi which was obviously less with him in the team. So by this logic he should have been dropped.

Also in 2009/2010 we had a 100% record without Drogba (averaging 3 a game in the process). Infact we also went two and a half years without losing a league game he didn't play in.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Also in 2009/2010 we had a 100% record without Drogba (averaging 3 a game in the process). Infact we also went two and a half years without losing a league game he didn't play in.

Right, I remember that. It was brought up by commentators every time Drogba was injured or in the AFCONs.

EDIT: Here's another one. Last season in the PL united had an 82% win percentage without Rooney but only 70% with him.

[Tomo 21,685]

Right, I remember that. It was brought up by commentators every time Drogba was injured or in the AFCONs.

Between the 2-1 defeat to Arsenal under Big Phil and the 1-0 defeat to Everton in Carlo's last game it was , infact between those two i think we only lost one game in all comps without Drogba and that was in the Carling Cup against Newcastle when half our team were teenagers/early 20's.

Yet despite that Drogba was by far our best player for a substantial part of that period.

[Kojo 4,676]

CHOULO you where the one who started the whole Stats debate, and now you're trying to prove it wrong just because people have now started to use stats against you?

Hypocrites at there best.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

CHOULO you where the one who started the whole Stats debate, and now you're trying to prove it wrong just because people have now started to use stats against you?

Hypocrites at there best.

Can't you give it a rest?

[Kojo 4,676]

Can't you give it a rest?

WTF, it's my first post in the thread today.

Can you put your hatred for me to one side for once.

[Shaan 263]

I always see this boring stats bullshit to prove if mikel is excellent or shit... rarely see questions like if we can improve the position mikel plays with another player or create competion for him to see if he can really deliver for our first team squad consitently with pressure , personallly I think we can get better player for his position and the system & style we are trying to play......

[Phil Driver 503]

@Phil Driver, I have got a nice little stat for you that proves this Mikel stat you keep rolling out is completely and utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Before the Club World Cup last season these were our stats with and without Azpilicueta.

With Azpi: Won 3 Drew 4 Lost 4

May i note that in those 3 wins one of them in extra time, another to Wolves's B team and the other he came on when we were 4-1 up.

Without Azpi: Won 10 Drew 1 Lost 2

Now despite those stats he was widely regarded as one of our best players in the first 6 months, which just proves those stats alone can't be used as damning evidence against Mikel.

Nice little stat that .

Here is a fact not a stat ,the last time I saw Dave he was knackered after having been given the run around by Luke Shaw (now there is a player) and I would also say to you with stats like that you can expect not to be a starter for Chelsea and he was awful in the Europa League Final ,remind me how many games has Dave played this season ? and who is first choice?

Dave has not been at Chelsea for seven years so there is still time for him .

[Phil Driver 503]

CHOULOU saying stats are irrelevant now?

Not as irrelevant as his graph that showed where Mikel stood on the pitch and he titled it "Action Areas"

I suppose a 95% slow backwards and sideways pass completion rate that slows our counter attacks down do it for some ,not for me .

What I want from my DM is someone who can close Osman down( and many others over the years) on the edge of our box and not let him waltz past unchallanged and create the goal .

We need much more from a DM than slow passes that slow our counters down and is a terrible defender with NO awareness .

And yes that stat on pass completion is the bigget fraud of a stat anyone can state.

[robsblubot 3,262]

CHOULOU saying stats are irrelevant now?

Not as irrelevant as his graph that showed where Mikel stood on the pitch and he titled it "Action Areas"

I suppose a 95% slow backwards and sideways pass completion rate that slows our counter attacks down do it for some ,not for me .

What I want from my DM is someone who can close Osman down( and many others over the years) on the edge of our box and not let him waltz past unchallanged and create the goal .

We need much more from a DM than slow passes that slow our counters down and is a terrible defender with NO awareness .

And yes that stat on pass completion is the bigget fraud of a stat anyone can state.

Win/lose ratio as a team with and without Mikel are the only stats that matter to me. It's a team sport after all. Pass completion means nothing... because it does not show the quality of the passing.

I would certainly like if Mikel had the pace to quickly close down players like you wrote, however even then he would still not be good enough for me. A modern player at t top side must be able to contribute in attack somehow. That play he lost the football on his own, without pressure, was embarrassing to say the least.

I think it's my Brazilian background (way of seeing the game) talking here, but technique/quality manifests itself in tight spaces and in goals/assists - not in side passes.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Haven't been following discussion but w/e I thought he was pretty good at Everton

[Phil Driver 503]

He was ,he was good at what he does .

Is what he does and what he is capable of enough? How does what he contributes effect the team and the results ?

What did he do ,he had a 95% pass completion rate that slowed us up and he allowed Osman to waltz past him for the goal .

I need him to clip a first time pass over the top now and again to stretch their back four ,I need him to crunch into a tackle and spring a counter . I need him to disposses Osman in their half like Maka used to and find Lampard like he did for that wonderful goal v Bayern Munich ,I have never seen him do it ? Maybe he has ,not very often though . Everything is slow and in front of the opposition ,they know what to expect ,it will be a slow build up with a couple of touches and a safe pass. I need him to not ball watch and to stay with runners,and be aware of what is around him . He doesnt do enough for me ,John Terry must have a 95% successful pass rate ,but is that all he has?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Win/lose ratio as a team with and without Mikel are the only stats that matter to me. It's a team sport after all. Pass completion means nothing... because it does not show the quality of the passing.

I would certainly like if Mikel had the pace to quickly close down players like you wrote, however even then he would still not be good enough for me. A modern player at t top side must be able to contribute in attack somehow. That play he lost the football on his own, without pressure, was embarrassing to say the least.

I think it's my Brazilian background (way of seeing the game) talking here, but technique/quality manifests itself in tight spaces and in goals/assists - not in side passes.

I used an individual stat of Mikel's to back up a point about Mikel. You have every right to point out what you think is the logical gap in my argument. While you have been (over, and over again for the past 5 pages or so) trying to make conclusions about Mikel based on a team stat. That is an incredibly flawed logic because there are tons of other variables involved as has been proved above with examples.

Win/lose ratio as a team with and without Mikel are the only stats that matter to me.

Really? How do those stats even relate to the player himself? And so you think we should have benched Drogba from 2008 to 2011? Should Rooney be a bench-warmer for united? And Barcelona should have gotten rid of Messi a couple of seasons ago?

[Jase 43,479]

@Phil Driver, I have got a nice little stat for you that proves this Mikel stat you keep rolling out is completely and utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Before the Club World Cup last season these were our stats with and without Azpilicueta.

With Azpi: Won 3 Drew 4 Lost 4

May i note that in those 3 wins one of them in extra time, another to Wolves's B team and the other he came on when we were 4-1 up.

Without Azpi: Won 10 Drew 1 Lost 2

Now despite those stats he was widely regarded as one of our best players in the first 6 months, which just proves those stats alone can't be used as damning evidence against Mikel.

Nice little stat that .

Here is a fact not a stat ,the last time I saw Dave he was knackered after having been given the run around by Luke Shaw (now there is a player) and I would also say to you with stats like that you can expect not to be a starter for Chelsea and he was awful in the Europa League Final ,remind me how many games has Dave played this season ? and who is first choice?

Dave has not been at Chelsea for seven years so there is still time for him .

When you judge Mikel, you only focus on his stats. Whatever you say about him, people debate with you, you go back to his stats and not wanting to look beyond. BUT yet with Azpi, you did not focus on his stats only and instead, deciding to look beyond that.

[Phil Driver 503]

What? ,I think I said that Dave's stats may well have something to do with him not being in the team ,not one of our best performers for me and the stats back that up and hence he has not played this season . Now do me a favour ,put Lampard's stats up when he starts my reading of Mikel is not just based on stats ,there is also an opinion of what I see in him above ,the stats back what I say up ,especially with regard to his passing which is safe,slow,predictable and negative . I am of the opinion his inclusion in our team badly influences our ability to win matches that is what I see and the reasons are given above ,the stats ONLY back that opinion up.

[Phil Driver 503]

I used an individual stat of Mikel's to back up a point about Mikel. You have every right to point out what you think is the logical gap in my argument. While you have been (over, and over again for the past 5 pages or so) trying to make conclusions about Mikel based on a team stat. That is an incredibly flawed logic because there are tons of other variables involved as has been proved above with examples.

You used a chart that showed where Mikel was standing and called it "action areas" and you use his pass completion stat as evidence he is a great player even though his passes are slow and negative . His terrible win play stats only back up the fact that when he plays we are likely to lose/draw. These are the reasons why without stats -

Is what he does and what he is capable of enough? How does what he contributes effect the team and the results ? What did he do ,he had a 95% pass completion rate that slowed us up and he allowed Osman to waltz past him for the goal . I need him to clip a first time pass over the top now and again to stretch their back four ,I need him to crunch into a tackle and spring a counter . I need him to disposses Osman in their half like Maka used to and find Lampard like he did for that wonderful goal v Bayern Munich ,I have never seen him do it ? Maybe he has ,not very often though . Everything is slow and in front of the opposition ,they know what to expect ,it will be a slow build up with a couple of touches and a safe pass. I need him to not ball watch and to stay with runners,and be aware of what is around him . He doesnt do enough for me ,John Terry must have a 95% successful pass rate ,but is that all he has?